Cass (Batgirl) vs Captain America

Originally posted by leonidas
if you're all making a case for her being faster than cap, i can certainly entertain the argument. i've seen and read enough with cass to feel i know her character pretty well, but some scans to refresh and highlight might be helpful.

as for the strength disparity though, there is no way that's even close imo. speed and skill i could see someone believing either way. we have seen cap beat on spidey though, and i'd say his precog>cass's. and we've seen spidey focus his spidey sense many times so that it has essentially worked just like cass's in the past to predict very specific attacks. and fast as people claim cap or cass is, neither is in spidey's class. if he can get by pete's precog, i don't see why so many feel getting around cass's would be such a huge stretch. unless you want to fall on the old PIS argument, which i don't find valid in this case because of the consistency of cap's character and abilities.....

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Sure it counts. But if we count these as "legitimate" speed feats. The Cap's count as well.

But it's irrelevant since they both get punched and kicked by characters who are not moving faster then a speeding bullet.

Originally posted by SamZED
Spidey is a whole different story.

whole different story how? i think the comparison is pretty relevant and unless you want to call pis on spidey vs cap, i think the comparison is also quite apt. least imo.

Accept Cap has multy blocked random lasers with gauntlets not dodged as you claim but blocked with "hand" speed easily.

Aim-predicting with hands, then. It's not like he reacted to the laser in mid-air, he moved his shield into it's path.

All these suggest laser time. Then there is the major one the time he dodged like 12-13 laser beams while under "zero" gravity.

Again, all that shows is he can aim-avoid/block/etc. 12-13 at once. If you can handle judging when they're going to fire by whatever signs they give off, then the speed of the shot doesn't matter too much.

Now this is one feat you can argue dodged the aim.....but all 13 beams and simultaneous dodged all of there tracking and while under zero gravity.

Tracking 13 aims at once =/= moving as fast as a laser. One's impressive, the other is silly (unless you're the Flash).

Then yeah.......you'll be up a creek with no paddle. Plus lets not forget it was explained that it's her body "reading" that lets her dodge the bullet in certain instances......because with that "she" can.

Body reading lets her know where a bullet is going. Then using this anticipation to move in to the path of a bullet, then out again, both while it's in mid-air, is speed.

if he can get by pete's precog, i don't see why so many feel getting around cass's would be such a huge stretch.

It's more, Cassandra is as good a martial artist as anyone, and she has that split-second edge. With Spider-man, a top martial artist can kinda plan ahead past the reaction of the spidey sense. With Cass, well, she's planning ahead too, it's just she's got an edge in reading ahead.

It's not a warning like Peter's, it's an 'when she's looking at you, she knows what your muscles are doing, what those are a sign of, and what that leads to.' A slightest beginning of movements is seen and translated into the combo that follows.

And it's not impossible to hit her with it, but there's no 'trick' to getting around it, so even very good foes will have trouble.

Originally posted by leonidas
if you're all making a case for her being faster than cap, i can certainly entertain the argument. i've seen and read enough with cass to feel i know her character pretty well, but some scans to refresh and highlight might be helpful.

as for the strength disparity though, there is no way that's even close imo. speed and skill i could see someone believing either way. we have seen cap beat on spidey though, and i'd say his precog>cass's. and we've seen spidey focus his spidey sense many times so that it has essentially worked just like cass's in the past to predict very specific attacks. and fast as people claim cap or cass is, neither is in spidey's class. if he can get by pete's precog, i don't see why so many feel getting around cass's would be such a huge stretch. unless you want to fall on the old PIS argument, which i don't find valid in this case because of the consistency of cap's character and abilities.....

Spidey is very good and similar. But IMO Daredevil is much more similar to Cass as his Radar/Super Senses help provide him a body read ability. As he to has similar sniper bullet feet where the bullet is inches away from his face and he dodges it as well. As it's no secret as well that Daredevil once noted that Steve is much faster then him while running....and during one of there fights in a battle he noted the same thing. Bullet time is just sadly overrated.

Originally posted by Q99
It's more, Cassandra is as good a martial artist as anyone, and she has that split-second edge. With Spider-man, a top martial artist can kinda plan ahead past the reaction of the spidey sense. With Cass, well, she's planning ahead too, it's just she's got an edge in reading ahead.

It's not a 'warning' like Peter's, it's an 'at all times she's looking at you, she knows what your muscles are doing, what those are a sign of, and what that leads to.'

fiar enough, but like i said, we've seen spidey able to focus on specific attacks. his sense can and has functioned like cass's in the past. and his flat out speed advantage is still not enough to save him when he faces cap. cap's also proven flat out faster than IF, who's MA need not be discussed.

bottom line, even focusing on him, spidey can't match cap in h2h. i don't see cass's ability allowing her to do any better. and since she lacks spidey's obvious speed and strength advantage, i don't see how she takes too many--especially if cap realizes how formidable she is and doesn't hold back.....

Originally posted by leonidas
whole different story how? i think the comparison is pretty relevant and unless you want to call pis on spidey vs cap, i think the comparison is also quite apt. least imo.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Spidey is very good and similar. But IMO Daredevil is much more similar to Cass as his Radar/Super Senses help provide him a body read ability. As he to has similar sniper bullet feet where the bullet is inches away from his face and he dodges it as well. As it's no secret as well that Daredevil once noted that Steve is much faster then him while running....and during one of there fights in a battle he noted the same thing. Bullet time is just sadly overrated.

dd is a good comparison (dd/cass would be a GREAT fight imo) but i brought up spidey because, as i said, he CAN focus his senses and he also has a significant speed and strength advantage on cap (maybe not strength so much anymore....?)

but yeah, i see your point. i think his battles with both spidey and dd tell us that ltd precog=/=insta-win for someone battling cap. not dd, not spidey and not cass. 👆

Originally posted by SamZED
Not going to call PIS but definitely going to call CIS. Spidey's efectiveness heavilly dependant on how much his head's in the fight. Same goes for his spider sense.

meh, maybe. i think even a fully focused pete is gonna have problems with cap though (but spidey would beat him in the end) but your point is fair. i still think the comparison is a relevant one though.

Originally posted by Q99
Aim-predicting with hands, then. It's not like he reacted to the laser in mid-air, he moved his shield into it's path.

Wrong he moved his shield in "multiple" laser shots.

Again, all that shows is he can aim-avoid/block/etc. 12-13 at once. If you can handle judging when they're going to fire by whatever signs they give off, then the speed of the shot doesn't matter too much.

Accept that was done in zero gravity you can make a arguement for 1 to 2 as aim dodging but all 12-13. Nope.

Tracking 13 aims at once =/= moving as fast as a laser. One's impressive, the other is silly (unless you're the Flash).

It's no more silly then you suggesting Cass is faster then the speed of sound.

Body reading lets her know where a bullet is going. Then using this anticipation to move in to the path of a bullet, then out again, both while it's in mid-air, is speed.

Cass with her body reading and just "pure speed" got tagged by a non-human using a cybernetic gun control. Implying she need her body reading and her speed is not enough.

It's more, Cassandra is as good a martial artist as anyone, and she has that split-second edge. With Spider-man, a top martial artist can kinda plan ahead past the reaction of the spidey sense. With Cass, well, she's planning ahead too, it's just she's got an edge in reading ahead.

It's not a warning like Peter's, it's an 'when she's looking at you, she knows what your muscles are doing, what those are a sign of, and what that leads to.' A slightest beginning of movements is seen and translated into the combo that follows.

This part I agree and it makes Cass super formidable. Heck I can actually see the argument of why Cass wins. But not because of her silly "bullet time speed" feats. Her body reading route is the right way. Her skill being a A+......is the right way.

Her stalemating Deathstroke who is very similar to Steve in stats.....is the right way. Cass will be a challenge but I'm just going with Steve overall due to his other advantages.

A good case can be made for both which both side won't be able to agree with.

Originally posted by leonidas
meh, maybe. i think even a fully focused pete is gonna have problems with cap though (but spidey would beat him in the end) but your point is fair. i still think the comparison is a relevant one though.

Originally posted by SamZED
Oh im not arguing he'd have trouble (even in Slott's recent story a mindcontrolled Cap surprised now kung-fu trained Spider-man with his speed). Just saying there's a huge gap between "friendly neighbourhood" Spider-man and "i'll tear your face off back-in-black" Spider-man. But didnt Cap have trouble with DD in their last encounter?

Originally posted by iceman24567
You mean when DD caught his shield?

Originally posted by SamZED
He did? I dont remember that, only remember DD avoiding Cap's attacks for a short period of time.

You sure you're not thinking of Caps fight with Deadpool?

I mean this.

Originally posted by SamZED
I mean this.

Originally posted by leonidas
fiar enough, but like i said, we've seen spidey able to focus on specific attacks. his sense can and has functioned like cass's in the past. and his flat out speed advantage is still not enough to save him when he faces cap. cap's also proven flat out faster than IF, who's MA need not be discussed.

bottom line, even focusing on him, spidey can't match cap in h2h. i don't see cass's ability allowing her to do any better. and since she lacks spidey's obvious speed and strength advantage, i don't see how she takes too many--especially if cap realizes how formidable she is and doesn't hold back.....

Except Cassandra is far more skilled than Spidey- it's not the specific move, it's the anticipating the whole combo, of seeing the trap that'll lead to the blow. That takes a martial artist.

Lemme also note she has Taskmaster ability. Not from an additional ability, it's just martial arts is so intuitive to her that seeing any move once is enough to know how to do it and incorporate it into her move set. And Tasky *has* done well against Capt on occasion.

Daredevil1
Wrong he moved his shield in "multiple" laser shots.

Ok? He anticipated them in succession.

If they were literally the same time, then speed or anticipation, neither would do. If they were in rapid succession, then judging where they'll be coming works.

Accept that was done in zero gravity you can make a arguement for 1 to 2 as aim dodging but all 12-13. Nope.

Zero G should have zero effect on whether it was aim-anticipated or not.

It's no more silly then you suggesting Cass is faster then the speed of sound.

It's actually far, far more silly. Literally orders of magnitude more silly... especially as the feats can be done with anticipation, and the panels certainly do not show the lasers in-flight.

Here, here is Cassandra moving into the way of, and out of the way, of bullets:

And here is sniper-bullet dodging:
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/10/102264/2686298-batgirl_022_10_11.jpg

I remember seeing a scan of her running past a bunch of guards into a building so fast they didnt realise what happened. Quicksilver-style.

Originally posted by SamZED
I remember seeing a scan of her running past a bunch of guards into a building so fast they didnt realise what happened. Quicksilver-style.

that would be a good one. i've seen the bullet dodging. good, not doubt. not as good as iron fist's though, and again, cap>danny. i THINK i know the dd fight you're talking about sam, but dd would def give cap some trouble--as cassandra would. i'm not saying these fights would be easy, but i'm saying cap's speed, strength and durability advantages would add up in the end to give him a solid majority, imo. the skill disparity isn't nearly great enough imo for cass to make up the differences in the other areas and i don't see her precog being enough either, especially once cap figures out what is is she's doing--and he would, quickly. i'll take cap here 7-8/10 but i do sort of get the other side--if you fully believe in the precog i get why you'd say she wins more often than not. i just don't think the ability is anything new for steve, and that his physical stats would let him overcome it.

Originally posted by SamZED
Then there's the feat of her dodging a sniper bullet.. after it left the barrel... and was only inches away from her head... with her back turned.. but she's a DC so it doesnt count.

She dodged after hearing it, which is impossible if its supersonic

If its a lower calibur hunting rifle its still a solid feat, just not supersonic.