Cass (Batgirl) vs Captain America

Originally posted by leonidas
that would be a good one. i've seen the bullet dodging. good, not doubt. not as good as iron fist's though, and again, cap>danny. i THINK i know the dd fight you're talking about sam, but dd would def give cap some trouble--as cassandra would. i'm not saying these fights would be easy, but i'm saying cap's speed, strength and durability advantages would add up in the end to give him a solid majority, imo. the skill disparity isn't nearly great enough imo for cass to make up the differences in the other areas and i don't see her precog being enough either, especially once cap figures out what is is she's doing--and he would, quickly. i'll take cap here 7-8/10 but i do sort of get the other side--if you fully believe in the precog i get why you'd say she wins more often than not. i just don't think the ability is anything new for steve, and that his physical stats would let him overcome it.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
I hate the Pis argument, but it is from the perspective I read it

She dodged after hearing it, which is impossible if its supersonic

If its a lower calibur hunting rifle its still a solid feat, just not supersonic.

Originally posted by Q99
Except Cassandra is far she has Taskmaster ability. Not from an additional ability, it's just martial arts is so intuitive to her that seeing any move once is enough to know how to do it and incorporate it into her move set. And Tasky *has* done
Ok? He anticipated them in succession

And here is sniper-bullet dodging:
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/10/102264/2686298-batgirl_022_10_11.jpg

TaskMaster also has legit super human abilities with his double speed deal...

@Sam

Idk the way the art shifts to her ear, makes it look like she is dodging by sound...

The reason Cap would lose here is because

1. He will underestimate her
2. He will hold back
3. She will predict his initial movements and counter with pressure point strikes

Steve's strength is negated because of 2. and 3.
Steve's durability is negated because of 3.
Thus Steve doesn't have any tangible advantages (at least in the beginning).

Now if Steve wasn't holding back and already knew her style up front (prediction and learning) then the fight would be different I believe but still tough as hell for him.

I can't see Cap doing #1 or #2, tbh.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Lol @H1's argument that Cap will hold back being his only argument

Originally posted by -Pr-
I can't see Cap doing #1 or #2, tbh.

Cap has the strength to kill a human with a punch. You think he is going to hit her to kill her? She's pretty, a good person (hero), a female, and a child. Cap wouldn't be worthy at all if he just went and killed female girl MAs.

You right about him underestimating her though. I think he knows (by the rules of basic knowledge) that she is one of the best MA in the world.

Originally posted by pym-ftw
Posted this three pages ago, still his only argument

I listed 3 things.

1. Cap holding back (he will)
2. Prediction ability
3. Learning ability.

Originally posted by h1a8
I listed 3 things.

1. Cap holding back (he will)
2. Prediction ability
3. Learning ability.

Prediction abilities give her a chance, but he is solidly faster..

Learning abilities 😂

Originally posted by h1a8
Cap has the strength to kill a human with a punch. You think he is going to hit her to kill her? She's pretty, a good person (hero), a female, and a child. Cap wouldn't be worthy at all if he just went and killed female girl MAs.

You right about him underestimating her though. I think he knows (by the rules of basic knowledge) that she is one of the best MA in the world.

If she tried to kill him, he'd kill her in self defence. Cap is a soldier; it's not as if she's fighting someone like Batman, who would never kill her.

Originally posted by h1a8
I listed 3 things.

1. Cap holding back (he will)
2. Prediction ability
3. Learning ability.

No, the 3 things you listed were

1. He will underestimate her
2. He will hold back
3. She will predict his initial movements and counter with pressure point strikes

Originally posted by leonidas
sure there is. even KNOWING something is coming doesn't mean that it can be adequately defended all the time, or that someone will necessarily possess the speed or skill to take full advantage of it all the time. you say we're ignoring it, but you're making it sound as though her skill and precog is perfect and infallible. that is manifestly untrue and sounds quite a bit like falling back on a no limits fallacy.

Shes already used her perdiction ability on slade, who has superhuman speed, and the added brainpower which gives him a superfast calculating ability. Why wouldnt it work on cap? No reason, like I said.

I don't think that's what Leo was saying, tbh.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I don't think that's what Leo was saying, tbh.

sigh....no, it's not. but that's cool. sometimes round here there is simply no way to change opinion.

[i]Originally posted by leonidas]that would be a good one. i've seen the bullet dodging. good, not doubt. not as good as iron fist's though, and again, cap>danny.

Originally posted by Silent Master
No, the 3 things you listed were

1. He will underestimate her
2. He will hold back
3. She will predict his initial movements and counter with pressure point strikes

Originally posted by -Pr-
If she tried to kill him, he'd kill her in self defence. Cap is a soldier; it's not as if she's fighting someone like Batman, who would never kill her.

People try and kill Cap all the time, and he uses lethal force.

He's "capable" of killing, sure.

Originally posted by cdtm
People try and kill Cap all the time, and he uses lethal force.

He's "capable" of killing, sure.

Exactly. I don't think he'd flat out murder her, but if he had to do it to defend himself, I can't see him hesitating.

That said, I don't think he'd need to kill her to beat her.

Originally posted by leonidas
sigh....no, it's not. but that's cool. sometimes round here there is simply no way to change opinion.

Glossed over. Like I said.

Originally posted by namorsubby
you guys are dodging the fact that you cannot give an adequate explanation for why and/or Cap will negate or overcome her ability.

Glossed over. Like I said.

And it's puzzling, since many gave Mr. X the nod over Cap due to his similar, but different, move reading abilities.

A good start to arguing against Cass, would be giving examples of characters who flat out beat her skills, without extenuating circumstances or bad writing.

For example, the Joker beat it because for some reason, his insanity made his body language gibberish to her, which makes no sense given how body language works, and given the explanation of how her skill works (She's perceptive enough to detect and read rippling of the skin, and all kinds of tells that really wouldn't be obvious to normal people..)

So we can safely rule that example out as PIS.

Then you have Shiva, who flat out beat her once, and barely lost a second to her. Except, she re-taught Cass how to body read, implying she uses a form of the same skill.. Not really the same as someone overcoming her ability on exceptional, conventional talent.

Originally posted by h1a8
Actually I listed 4 things. The learning ability was in a different post.

Do you know what a list is?