ROTS Mace Windu Vs AOTC/ROTS Count Dooku

Mace fought Kar Vastor in Shatterpoint, and he said himself that he wanted to win. Yet Vastor still defeated him. And this took place on a world saturated in darkness against Vastor, who himself was a dark sider of notable power. Despite that, Mace still never achieved the fighting state he did against Sidious while fighting Vastor, and Kar beat Mace. The difference between Palpatine's Force Speed and Mace's Force Speed in that duel is that Palpatine possesses that degree of Speed by virtue of his own power; Mace does not. He would not have the same amp as when he fought Sidious.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So nothing of great significance then? Somebody Mace didn't want to kill.. another person that was of little significance to Mace and could never beat him... and lastly somebody Mace beat but didn't do as well against because he didn't train him like Dooku did? These are the best you can do?

Mace beat somebody superior to Dooku is every way imaginable.

Mace has vaapad and will be abl eto feed off of Dooku. If they were already equal at base levels how does vaapad not become the single deciding factor?

Originally posted by pencilcrayon
Mace fought Kar Vastor in Shatterpoint, and he said himself that he wanted to win. Yet Vastor still defeated him. And this took place on a world saturated in darkness against Vastor, who himself was a dark sider of notable power. Despite that, Mace still never achieved the fighting state he did against Sidious while fighting Vastor, and Kar beat Mace. The difference between Palpatine's Force Speed and Mace's Force Speed in that duel is that Palpatine possesses that degree of Speed by virtue of his own power; Mace does not. He would not have the same amp as when he fought Sidious.

Lol. Windu's speed does not depend on his opponent at all.

And even hurt, lurching drunkenly, Vaster still could whip his arms in blindingly fast raking slaps at Mace's head and wounded. neck. But where Vastor's speed was blinding, Mace's was invisible. Not one of those slaps connected.

Before Vastor could even focus his eyes, Mace had hit him six times: two thundering hooks to his short ribs, a knee slamming hard into the same thigh he'd hit before, an elbow snapping up to the point of his chin, and two devastating palm strikes to either hinge of his jaw.

An ordinary man would have been unconscious. Vastor seemed to be getting stronger.

Vastor fired another of those blinding slaps. This time, instead of ducking, Mace countered with a whirring hook that met the lor peleKs swinging arm directly on the nerve that ran up the inside of the biceps. Vastor threw the other even harder-which only made the inside of that arm connect that much harder with Mace's coun-terhook.

Vastor's mighty arms spasmed and dropped limply to his sides. "This is called Vaapad, Kar." A fierce light burned in Mace's eyes. "How many arms do you see?"

Then he hit Vastor twice in the nose before the lor pelek could even blink.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

Mace beat somebody superior to Dooku is every way imaginable.

Mace has vaapad and will be abl eto feed off of Dooku. If they were already equal at base levels how does vaapad not become the single deciding factor?

Prove that Sidious is better than Dooku "IN EVERY WAY IMAGINABLE."

Sidious is simply more powerful overall than either Dooku or Mace. And would take a majority against either in an All-Out.

And prove that all the quotes and showings proving Dooku being >/= Mace were referring to a Vapaadless Mace.

DP stop being silly and obtuse... I don't need to prove 1+1 =2 anymore than Sids is superior to Dooku in every way imaginable. That is just how it is and you know it. The best question would be.. in what ways in Dooku superior since we know Sids is clearly better than Dooku in more areas.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
All points without anything to back it up. I take it as your concession then?

I posted the single greatest feats between them... Mace beat a more powerful person than anybody Dooku has beaten. It really isn't even close actually. That is all the proof I would need really.. since it's the greater of the combat feats between them. Then when you add in vaapad... it really becomes clear dooku doesn't have much of a chance. What proof do you have.. sparring sessions? quotes saying they are eual... narration can only go so far.. feats is the ultimate trump card. So what else? ohhh dooku doing better against somebody he trained how to fight.. GG... duh.. that proves very little. So what?

Originally posted by axel_jovan
^ Well, I agree with the above.

Yoda and Sidiosu are at the absolute top.
Windu is not better saber duelist than Yoda, and certainly about equal to Dooku.
What I meant rather is that Windu's Force-power's are a bit underrated, and that Dooku, in general, is a bit underrated too.

Yoda and Sidius are at the top? What about ObiWan? The Jedi who defeated Darth Maul, General Grievous and Darth Vader should get some credit.

On topic, we see Dooku shrug ObiWan aside pretty easily in RoTS and Mace stands toe to toe with Sidius up until Anakin shows up. I would give the edge to Dooku because he's the type to pull some shady trick to beat Mace. Kind of like how Dooku "defeated" Yoda in AoTC, he distracted him and threatened the lives of 2 Jedi. As yoda stopped fighting to save ObiWan and Anakin, Dooku could've easily ganked him.

Mace's victory over Sidious was circumstancial: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia mentions that Mace was ''forced back'' as seen in the movie. The novelization mentions that they had reached an ''impasse'', but in the same novelization, the ''impasse'' happened before Anakin landed, and in the movie, Anakin lands 25- or so seconds into the fight; conclusion? Mace held his own for 20 seconds. The novelization then explains how both Mace and Sidious can feel that the end is close, how Sidious' fear is the shatterpoint that allows Mace to disarm him, and then in the end, Mace realizes that it wasn't Sidious' fear that led to the shatterpoint, it was Anakin's. Had Anakin not been there to interfere, Mace would have gained no such advantage and would have kept defending himself against Sidious' onslaught until he couldn't keep up.

Mace has fought evenly with Bulq: Dooku stomped Bulq and Tholme simultaneously. Mace struggled with Grievous: Dooku regularly outsparred Grievous. Mace fought evenly with Ventress: Dooku beat Ventress and the two most skilled Nightsisters while blind and drugged.

In terms of Force powrs, not taking into account Mace's ridiculous feats on Datooine, and unless I am missing some of his best feats in Shatterpoint, Mace doesn't compare. His best feat is pushing pushing an AT-ET off a cliff, and I recall he did struggle with this. Dooku, on the other hand, has easily dropped Ventress with a finger and twice casually took her lightsabers out of her hands with the force, lifted dozens or so obelisk stones, brought down a huge metal pillar, ragdolled Kenobi etc.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Mace's victory over Sidious was circumstancial: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia mentions that Mace was ''forced back'' as seen in the movie. The novelization mentions that they had reached an ''impasse'', but in the same novelization, the ''impasse'' happened before Anakin landed, and in the movie, Anakin lands 25- or so seconds into the fight; conclusion? Mace held his own for 20 seconds. The novelization then explains how both Mace and Sidious can feel that the end is close, how Sidious' fear is the shatterpoint that allows Mace to disarm him, and then in the end, Mace realizes that it wasn't Sidious' fear that led to the shatterpoint, it was [b]Anakin's. Had Anakin not been there to interfere, Mace would have gained no such advantage and would have kept defending himself against Sidious' onslaught until he couldn't keep up.[/b]

Good so far. 👆

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Mace has fought evenly with Bulq: Dooku stomped Bulq and Tholme simultaneously.

Dooku removed Bulq from the fight as quickly as possible via Force lightning. Windu's duel with converted!Bulq was as much an interrogation as it was a battle and, even then, Windu ended the contest on his own terms with the Force.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Mace struggled with Grievous: Dooku regularly outsparred Grievous.

Mace "struggled" with Grievous on top of a Mag-Lev train during the invasion of Coruscant in a battle to the death. Dooku only sparred with Grievous and, as far as we know, only ever on stable ground.

More importantly, all this was prior to Grievous's reconfiguration for G- and T-canon wherein he is a moderately talented warrior at best.

Grievous of higher canon, the one who struggles with Obi-Wan, Asajj Ventress, Kit Fisto, Eeth Koth, Adi Gallia, and even Ahsoka Tano, would not logically challenge the Jedi order's second greatest fighter.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Mace fought evenly with Ventress:

Actually, she flees from him after Windu outright tells her that she has no chance of beating him.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Dooku beat Ventress and the two most skilled Nightsisters while blind and drugged.

Those two Nightsisters are not known to have ever wielded lightsabers prior to the engagement and Dooku was, in fact, disarmed. He won only via his superior command of the Force.

Their respective battles with Bulq, Ventress, and Grievous differ in critical ways (circumstance, terrain, canonical depiction) that you cannot conclusively declare Dooku the superior warrior next to Mace.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
In terms of Force powrs, not taking into account Mace's ridiculous feats on Datooine, and unless I am missing some of his best feats in Shatterpoint, Mace doesn't compare.

Doesn't compare? You're grossly exaggerating the extent of Windu's [alleged] inferiority.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
His best feat is pushing pushing an AT-ET off a cliff, and I recall he did struggle with this.

He visibly gathered his energies before acting, yes.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Dooku, on the other hand, has easily dropped Ventress with a finger

On a dark side nexus and the context of the feat indicates that it is a display of technique over raw power. (He's stretching blood vessels, after all.) The fact that Dooku did not replicate this ability elsewhere against Ventress could very well indicate that he is incapable of replicating it on neutral ground.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
and twice casually took her lightsabers out of her hands with the force,

I'll grant you this one.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
lifted dozens or so obelisk stones,

And, like Mace, we see Dooku visibly steel himself for the effort. It's not like he does this with a sneeze.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
brought down a huge metal pillar, ragdolled Kenobi etc.

The fact of the matter is that Dooku has been in far more high profile fights than Mace. But his greater number of feats does not require superiority over Mace. We have textual confirmation that Mace is, at the very least, a peer of Dooku's on neutral ground if not an equal; their fight on Boz Pity was fairly even until Dooku elected to retreat (after commanding his MagnaGuards to leave all Jedi assailants to him); and Mace's few Force displays are certainly comparable to Dooku's: Not only does he shove an AT-TE, he also crushes a contingent of droids defending Ryloth's capital in a Force wave a la Savage Opress, and destroys a Trade Federation tank by tearing off the capital's gargantuan gate and crushing the tank with it.

Yes Mace does have some Beastly Force feats.

The better argument would be that Dooku may have an edge in that department based on Yoda's words about Dooku being the Jedi Temple's most learned student in the ways of the Force and based on a wider range of force feats displayed by Dooku.

But there clearly won't be a huge difference in that respect.

Likewise it wouldn't surprise me if Mace's Vapaad gives him an edge over Dooku in Sabers.

But again there will not be a significant difference between the 2.

👆

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I posted the single greatest feats between them... Mace beat a more powerful person than anybody Dooku has beaten. It really isn't even close actually. That is all the proof I would need really.. since it's the greater of the combat feats between them. Then when you add in vaapad... it really becomes clear dooku doesn't have much of a chance. What proof do you have.. sparring sessions? quotes saying they are eual... narration can only go so far.. feats is the ultimate trump card. So what else? ohhh dooku doing better against somebody he trained how to fight.. GG... duh.. that proves very little. So what?

Beating the most powerful Sith is not necessarily the best feat. Feats against lesser foes could be more impressive. For instance Dooku's ragdolling of Kenobi, Bulq, Vos, Ventress with ridiculous ease could be argued to be greater than than anything Mace has done.

But the main thing you need to understand is that feats are not the end all. Arguing Khan vs Skywalker in the Movie Versus forums I've noticed that Padawans Luke and Kenobi have actually displayed greater speed feats than Anakin has (in the movies). Does that make them faster and more powerful at those points in time? Of course not.

Tempest, addressing your post later. Sleep will do me now.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Good so far. 👆

Dooku removed Bulq from the fight as quickly as possible via Force lightning. Windu's duel with converted!Bulq was as much an interrogation as it was a battle and, even then, Windu ended the contest on his own terms with the Force.

Mace "struggled" with Grievous on top of a Mag-Lev train during the invasion of Coruscant in a battle to the death. Dooku only sparred with Grievous and, as far as we know, only ever on stable ground.

More importantly, all this was prior to Grievous's reconfiguration for G- and T-canon wherein he is a moderately talented warrior at best.

Grievous of higher canon, the one who struggles with Obi-Wan, Asajj Ventress, Kit Fisto, Eeth Koth, Adi Gallia, and even Ahsoka Tano, would not logically challenge the Jedi order's second greatest fighter.

Actually, she flees from him after Windu outright tells her that she has no chance of beating him.

Those two Nightsisters are not known to have ever wielded lightsabers prior to the engagement and Dooku was, in fact, disarmed. He won only via his superior command of the Force.

Their respective battles with Bulq, Ventress, and Grievous differ in critical ways (circumstance, terrain, canonical depiction) that you cannot conclusively declare Dooku the superior warrior next to Mace.

Doesn't compare? You're grossly exaggerating the extent of Windu's [alleged] inferiority.

He visibly gathered his energies before acting, yes.

On a dark side nexus and the context of the feat indicates that it is a display of technique over raw power. (He's stretching blood vessels, after all.) The fact that Dooku did not replicate this ability elsewhere against Ventress could very well indicate that he is incapable of replicating it on neutral ground.

I'll grant you this one.

And, like Mace, we see Dooku visibly steel himself for the effort. It's not like he does this with a sneeze.

The fact of the matter is that Dooku has been in far more high profile fights than Mace. But his greater number of feats does not require superiority over Mace. We have textual confirmation that Mace is, at the very least, a peer of Dooku's on neutral ground if not an equal; their fight on Boz Pity was fairly even until Dooku elected to retreat (after commanding his MagnaGuards to leave all Jedi assailants to him); and Mace's few Force displays are certainly comparable to Dooku's: Not only does he shove an AT-TE, he also crushes a contingent of droids defending Ryloth's capital in a Force wave a la Savage Opress, and destroys a Trade Federation tank by tearing off the capital's gargantuan gate and crushing the tank with it.

Spot on post except the part where you say Mace beating Sids was entirely circumstancial. This couldn't be further from the truth. You could look at EVERY single fight in the star wars mythos and come up with circumstancial state of minds, terrain, focus, help, didn't want to go all out... etc etc... This is the case in real life fights to whether that be MMA or boxing. Fights have circumstancs... that isn't a weird variable at play in this fight it's in EVERY fight. So that is a constant. Then what we are left with is what actually happened.... Mace disarmed and outdueled Sids in sabers... he countered sids when he tried to use force powers... he took an extended force lighting stream and had sids at his mercy. That is what happened. It was a clear decisive victory for Mace. Lucas own words were that he overpowered Sids... not well he only won because of circumstances... no.. he overpowered him. It's really that simple

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Spot on post except the part where you say Mace beating Sids was entirely circumstancial. This couldn't be further from the truth. You could look at EVERY single fight in the star wars mythos and come up with circumstancial state of minds, terrain, focus, help, didn't want to go all out... etc etc... This is the case in real life fights to whether that be MMA or boxing. Fights have circumstancs... that isn't a weird variable at play in this fight it's in EVERY fight. So that is a constant. Then what we are left with is what actually happened.... Mace disarmed and outdueled Sids in sabers... he countered sids when he tried to use force powers... he took an extended force lighting stream and had sids at his mercy. That is what happened. It was a clear decisive victory for Mace. Lucas own words were that he overpowered Sids... not well he only won because of circumstances... no.. he overpowered him. It's really that simple

Ignoring contextual factors wholesale as you seem to suggest is actually pretty damn stupid. Else we must assume TPM!Obi-Wan is superior to TPM!Maul, Dooku is roughly equal to Yoda, Jango Fett could always take Coleman Trebor, Anakin would shitstomp Dooku all day, any day, etc.

The novel depicts that, even when completely submerged in Vaapad, the best Mace can do is achieve "impasse" with Sidious. His subsequent victory courtesy of shatterpoint is strongly implied to have been a ploy by Sidious (which Mace himself realizes before his death). The script shows Mace being pimpsmacked by Sidious via a Force push. And, lastly, Mace "disarms" and "outduels" Sidious via a kick to the face... not through strict sword technique.

If I have the measure of Intrepid's point, and I believe I do, he is arguing that Sidious is the stronger and more skilled Force user and, at the very least, a comparable swordsman. He'd be right. Which is why DARTH POWER and others have argued, and I'd agree, that Sidious would take a majority of fights against Mace as he would Dooku.

I've seen you take such factors into consideration when assessing Dooku next to Yoda. We're simply doing the same here. Sidious is more powerful and skilled than Mace.

I have never suggested completly throwing out context in fights... show me where i said this. What i said is.. that there are circumstances in every single star wars fight in the entire mythos. To give such circumstances the weight you're trying to give it.. means we could then discredit every single outcome of a fight in the mythos. Is that what you're suggesting we do? Every single fight has circumstances.. sometis those circumstances are more relevent and fight deciding than others... no argument there... my point is the weight you're giving it isn't correct.

To go further... you said Anakin would always beat dooku.. now if I employ circumstances as you have in the mace vs. sids fight... what are we left with... we are left with a Anakin fighting out of character with more clarity.. precision than ever before. He was as we call him in the zone. That is a HUGE circumstances that woudln't always be the case when fighting dooku. Dooku via novelization used up force reserves fighting both Anakin and Obi.. so much so that he had to replenish himself before facing down Anakin. Which thus means, that he would have less force reserves to call upon later. It has been stated by I believe Gillard that Dooku under estimated Anakin during their fight. So as you can clearly see.. something you called a sure fire victory for Anakin everytime vs. Dooku couldn't be further from the truth.

Lastly, the novel doesn't say the best he could hope for was an impasse... it says that is where they were at that present moment. Nobody able to gain an advantage over the other. That doesn't preclude somebody from gaining an advantage ove rthe other. The whole ohhhh Sids let himself be disarmed agian goes against the highest form of canon. Neither the novel nor the movie suggests Sids let me himself be disarmed. He was OVERPOWERED. Period. Further the only person that was going to lose that fight was Sids... Mace was constantly being fueled by Sids.. and thus his stamina would hold out much much longer than Sids could ever hold out. So the impasse for the entire fight in proven null and void. When sword fighting... if you disarm someone you disarm someone. Period. Sids tried to force push Mace during the sword fight and was promptly countered. You're also incorrect and forgetting that Mace knew sids woudl faulter on the slippery ground if he shattered the window.. this is a form of shatterpoint as well. So anakin's fear and misplaced insight by Mace.. doens't change his finding of sids shatterpoint and knowing he would faulter under the wet ground.

Is Sids a more powerful force user than Mace... sure.. no doubt. Would that make a victory for him certain. No. Would sids take some out of ten... no doubt.. maybe a slight majority.. maybe even.. maybe a minority. But Mace won that fight.. and that is all we have to go by in how they woudl do. For a real life example... when Ali beat foreman... people could say well foreman did this after that fight and beat lyle.. beat frazier.. and thus his "feats" show that he could beat an older ali now... Sure... but those other fights don't trump what we saw.. we say Ali beat foreman. Period. We saw Mace beat sids. Could sids do better sure... to give the majority goes against canon material. They fought sids lost. Period.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Dooku removed Bulq from the fight as quickly as possible via Force lightning.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Windu's duel with converted!Bulq was as much an interrogation as it was a battle and, even then, Windu ended the contest on his own terms with the Force.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Mace "struggled" with Grievous on top of a Mag-Lev train during the invasion of Coruscant in a battle to the death. Dooku only sparred with Grievous and, as far as we know, only ever on stable ground.

Just as the Force was keeping Mace from being blown from the mag-lev's roof, magnetism of some sort was keeping the general fastened in place. For the cyborg, though, the coherence hindered as much as it helped, whereas Mace never remained in one place for very long.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
More importantly, all this was prior to Grievous's reconfiguration for G- and T-canon wherein he is a moderately talented warrior at best.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Actually, she flees from him after Windu outright tells her that she has no chance of beating him.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Those two Nightsisters are not known to have ever wielded lightsabers prior to the engagement and

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Dooku was, in fact, disarmed.

He won only via his superior command of the Force.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Their respective battles with Bulq, Ventress, and Grievous differ in critical ways (circumstance, terrain, canonical depiction) that you cannot conclusively declare Dooku the superior warrior next to Mace.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Doesn't compare? You're grossly exaggerating the extent of Windu's [alleged] inferiority.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
On a dark side nexus and the context of the feat indicates that it is a display of technique over raw power. (He's stretching blood vessels, after all.) The fact that Dooku did not replicate this ability elsewhere against Ventress could very well indicate that he is incapable of replicating it on neutral ground.

I'm not gonna push the point. Dooku disarming Ventress via. pulling her sabers out of her hands and then choking her (Witches of the Mist I think it was) is just as good.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And, like Mace, we see Dooku visibly steel himself for the effort. It's not like he does this with a sneeze.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The fact of the matter is that Dooku has been in far more high profile fights than Mace. But his greater number of feats does not require superiority over Mace. We have textual confirmation that Mace is, at the very least, a peer of Dooku's on neutral ground if not an equal; their fight on Boz Pity was fairly even until Dooku elected to retreat (after commanding his MagnaGuards to leave all Jedi assailants to him); and Mace's few Force displays are certainly comparable to Dooku's: Not only does he shove an AT-TE, he also crushes a contingent of droids defending Ryloth's capital in a Force wave a la Savage Opress, and destroys a Trade Federation tank by tearing off the capital's gargantuan gate and crushing the tank with it.

In a duel where everything is permitted, though, Dooku would have an extremely hard time getting any sort of advantage over Mace through the force, but he still has the possibility of overwhelming Mace through either lightsaber dueling or offensive force powers. Mace, in my opinion, only has the possibility of overwhelming Dooku through lightsaber dueling.

Either way, I'm not suggesting it would be any kind of stomp. Dooku should still win, be it 6/10 for a majority.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I'm certain he disarms him first.

He disarms him off his Shoto.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Mace, in my opinion, only has the possibility of overwhelming Dooku through lightsaber dueling.

I do think Mace has a very decent chance to edge out Dooku in a pure Fencing match.

The guy matched and even edged out Sidious in that department, which granted may have been a peak performance from Mace. And the context of starting with 3 other Jedi may also have aided that performance(and possibly Anakin being on the way).

But still it was Sidious, and looking at how Mace's Vapaad was described in the novel version of that fight, it would most likely give Dooku a lot of trouble.

But in an all out combat I'd say overall combat skills will come into play. For Dooku this includes how he has proven many times he's very good at combining his Saber and Force skills together superbly in a fight which could easily give Dooku the edge over Mace.
Whilst with Mace his overall combat skills include Vapaad and Shatterpoint which could easily give him the edge over Dooku.

If there is a significant difference in Overall Power between these 2 then Yoda certainly hasn't noticed it. Yoda who has sparred them both and fought alongside them both many times.

There certainly isn't any noticeable difference between them. They're peers and for one to decide the outcome is preference.

Can you explain to me how Vaapad can amplify Mace to the level of being able to compete with Sids.. but not just compete... but win the saber duel... counter sids force powers (force push and lighting) and gain the advantage.. yet it woudln't do the same for an inferior fellow DS user in Dooku. Please explain your logic behind that. When we follow things to theri logically conclusion, and as we can see by the poll results, most feel Mace wins... Mace should be the favorite for this fight. Nobody is saying it will be easy or a walk in the park. But Vapaad gives Mace a very real advantage in this fight that I don't think Dooku can overcome.