ROTS Mace Windu Vs AOTC/ROTS Count Dooku

Originally posted by The_Tempest
KT, Dooku isn't heard issuing orders to the droids. Galan, Dooku was losing and needed all the help he could get even if the droids didn't amount to more than a momentary distraction. DP, Dooku wasn't stomping shit.

I have spoken.

The script says he and Obi-Wan are both tired as the fight progresses and that Anakin is driving the attack on the Count. To say nothing of the fact that, in recent canon, Dooku has been shown struggling like hell against Anakin alone. The fact that he had a brief advantage in no way means he was stomping them... unless I can argue Sidious totally stomped Yoda because he knocked Yoda out. Or that Opress stomped Dooku and Ventress in "Witches of the Mist"... or Anakin and Obi-Wan.

There's no point in desperately seeking a favorable interpretation for Dooku. He was losing. 😬

Originally posted by The_Tempest

The script says he and Obi-Wan are both tired as the fight progresses and that Anakin is driving the attack on the Count. To say nothing of the fact that, in recent canon, Dooku has been shown struggling like hell against Anakin alone.

Originally posted by Vensai
He was definitely being overwhelmed during the start. And I'd hardly call being kicked to the floor momentarily being stomped. Especially since Anakin jumped up and owned Dooku a few seconds later.

Anakin obviously has it in him to defeat Dooku on his own.

I'm arguing that Dooku was clearly the superior combatant on the pitch up to the point where he almost combo KO'd the duo.

He didn't almost KO the due NOR did he stomp them as you claim. It was actually the exact opposite of s stomp

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Galan, Dooku was losing and needed all the help he could get even if the droids didn't amount to more than a momentary distraction.

That said, a "tired" Dooku simultaneously owned Anakin(donkey-kick) and Kenobi(force-choke) atop the stairs. If he were truly as desperate as you're claiming, he wouldn't have been able to smack them aside with such ease, me thinks.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
yet go him yelling for them in non canon.

I didn't say desperate, I said losing. As in Dooku was on the retreat, at the disadvantage, eager to separate his enemies out of necessity, in a bid for survival. A fleeting moment of advantage does not change that. The novel indicates he's desperate as hell, but I haven't commented on that one way or another.

This is where KT's objections enter into play. It does indeed seem as though you're trying to backhandedly suggest Dooku was dominant (which he wasn't). He was losing, period. If you believe he was losing (which, again, he was) then we're of the same opinion.

We only differ in thought if you think Dooku was not losing (which is wrong).

The reason he was ''losing'' was because, per novel, the Jedi changed forms which caught Dooku off guard. Kind of non-canon and pointless.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
He didn't almost KO the due NOR did he stomp them as you claim. It was actually the exact opposite of s stomp

He at the very least KO'd and completely stomped Kenobi, while simultaneously besting Skywalker.

And he wasn't in a One-Off Uber rage when he did this, nor is there any excuse for the duo to be caught off-guard when Dooku was the one who was outnumbered.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I didn't say desperate, I said losing. As in Dooku was on the retreat, at the disadvantage, eager to separate his enemies out of necessity, in a bid for survival. A fleeting moment of advantage does not change that. The novel indicates he's desperate as hell, but I haven't commented on that one way or another.

This is where KT's objections enter into play. It does indeed seem as though you're trying to backhandedly suggest Dooku was dominant (which he wasn't). He was losing, period. If you believe he was losing (which, again, he was) then we're of the same opinion.

We only differ in thought if you think Dooku was not losing (which is wrong).

That being said, Kenobi had absolutely nothing to do with why Dooku was 'losing'-- Anakin himself even remarked that Dooku owned Kenobi "without effort". It was Anakin, and Anakin alone who consistently forced Dooku to deplete his force reserves and "tire".

I believe Nick Gillard somewhere mentioned that the fights were slowed down in the movies for the viewers to be able to watch them.

If anyone could post the interview?

^ Yeah I hate that. But perhaps Mandalorians are faster than regular humans??

Thing with SW is you never know when a supposedly normal guy might actually be a natural force sensitive but just not trained in the ways of the Force.

Back to the Dooku thing, I don't get why people are so adamant that Dooku was losing the whole fight when he clearly wasn't at the point where he simultaneously smacked the Kenobi and Skywalker duo. He was winning at that point in the fight if nothing else. And he certainly stomped Kenobi at least. And what he did to Skywalker at that point wasn't far off from a stomping.

It was only Skywalker accessing his full power in their One on One that proved too much for Count Dooku.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ Yeah I hate that. But perhaps Mandalorians are faster than regular humans??

Yuuzhan Vong on the other hand do seem to be faster than regular human. Yet, still does not compare to 20 strikes per second, wielding 24 lightsabers or any other similar hyperbole bullshit from novels. Yet, even top Jedi had no advantage in speed over Vong. Yet, still the same Mandalorians were beating Yuuzhan Vong in combat.

Also, consider how a Mandalorian was tooling Jaina despite her supposed to be superhuman speed to the point that in desperation she used a Force push.

Originally posted by Arhael
Nope. Mandalorians are groups of regular human and other species. Mandalorian is not a race, it is a culture.

Yuuzhan Vong on the other hand do seem to be faster than regular human. Yet, still does not compare to 20 strikes per second, wielding 24 lightsabers or any other similar hyperbole bullshit from novels. Yet, even top Jedi had no advantage in speed over Vong. Yet, still the same Mandalorians were beating Yuuzhan Vong in combat.

Also, consider how a Mandalorian was tooling Jaina despite her supposed to be superhuman speed to the point that in desperation she used a Force push.

But surely Jedi have super speed, otherwise how could they possibly deflect multiple blaster bolts simultaneously.

I'm still waiting on an explanation on why people are fighting the canonicity of Dooku calling for the droids. The people saying it's non canon.. .agree he brought them there to interfere.. they even agree that he most likley signaled them right then and there to interfere... so when then try and fight the canonicity of something they agree he wanted to happen and signaled to happen?

*sighs*

Once more:
No one is arguing the canonicity of the droids attacking, nor is anyone questioning that the droids obviously attacked at the behest of Dooku. Like I've said(and said and said and said and said): the droids may have been pre-programmed to attack if Dooku came up the stairs so that he didn't have to verbally or physically signal them to enter the fray... Who knows?

All we have been saying is that the specific part of the novel in which Dooku shouts: "GUARDS, OPEN FIRE!" is 100% non-canon because he did NOT shout a verbal directive at the droids in the film. No offense, but it seems like you're being purposefully obtuse at this point. You're not an idiot, and I don't enjoy treating you as such, but damn, this shouldn't be so hard for you to understand... It's as rudimentary as it gets.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
But surely Jedi have super speed, otherwise how could they possibly deflect multiple blaster bolts simultaneously.

Again, if Force users are so much faster, how can you explain fights of Jedi with Mandalorians and Yuuzhan Vong? Will you claim that Maul deliberately allowed Vizsla to punch him so many times? Or how Jango Fett head-butted Kenobi?

Ahsoka was fast enough to survive even Grievous. Yet, look at her fight against Vizsla:
YouTube video

The Jedi/Sith Essential Guide states that Jedi have "heightened reflexes", but that is a very ambiguous statement.

Either way, most/all Jedi possess some sort of limited precog, which enables them to block laser fire. Even ANH Luke, with literally NO lightsaber/force training, was able to block multiple laser beams while blind:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VangvXb1B0E

And as AotC confirmed, the above is a Youngling-level skill:

Point: you really don't need to have super-fast reflexes when you already know where a laser bolt is going to be via pre-cog. The better your pre-cog is, the faster you will appear. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007
*sighs*

Once more:
No one is arguing the canonicity of the droids attacking, nor is anyone questioning that the droids obviously attacked at the behest of Dooku. Like I've said(and said and said and said and said): the droids may have been pre-programmed to attack if Dooku came up the stairs so that he didn't have to verbally or physically signal them to enter the fray... Who knows?

All we have been saying is that the specific part of the novel in which Dooku shouts: "GUARDS, OPEN FIRE!" is 100% non-canon because he did NOT shout a verbal directive at the droids in the film. No offense, but it seems like you're being purposefully obtuse at this point. You're not an idiot, and I don't enjoy treating you as such, but damn, this shouldn't be so hard for you to understand... It's as rudimentary as it gets.

To be frank... You keep on not getting the point over and over again.. which is making me wonder the same thing. How somethign so easy to grasp is totally misunderstood in beyond me. Let me say this again... WHY.. the question is WHY are you even fighting the canonicity of him calling for the droids. Okay I'll say it again WHY are you fighting it.. NOT whether you think it's or not.. that is a totally different matter. AGAIN WHY are you fighting it??? If you agree that he had the droids there to interfere and agree he set them up to interfere or gave some kinda signal (mental.. pre programmed whatever).. Then how much sense does it make to fight the canonicity of something you agree happened. Are you understanding now? Does it makes sense to say.. Yes I agree he brought the droids there to interfere... he wanted them to interefere when they did.. but I void the canonicity of him calling for them. That makes ZERO logical sense. The ONLY reason why you would contest something that fits very nicely into what we all know Dooku wanted and why he brought them.. is because you feel it paints Dooku in a negative light. There are much more important things that we should question the canonicity of... Not something as illogical as question this. Hopefully it's clear now.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Let me say this again... WHY.. the question is WHY are you even fighting the canonicity of him calling for the droids.