Originally posted by Intrepid37
I don't see why Maul's win over Kenobi in Revenge is treated as a context specific victory. Maul was not in the right mindset either and not as powerful as in S5.
Because Filoni states in the interview that Kenobi was the one disadvantaged in that fight. If he stated so for Maul it'd get more attention.
Originally posted by The_TempestACTUALLY that is EXACTLY what people are saying when they say Kenobi's win was ENTIRELY CIRCUMSTANCIAL AND CONTEXTUAL and then CITE FOCUS AND GOING OFFENIVE as the reasons. Which is exactly my point those are circumstances and context in a fight. Those are readily available options for Obi. Circumstancila and contextual would be obi finding a super lightsaber sword right before battle and using it to win. That is circumstnaces and context not being focused or gong offensive.
No one ever said that Obi-Wan would fight "unfocused." That's pretty dumb: isn't he focused in most battles?But clearly his performance in the second duel in "Revival" owed more to something other than just mere focus... else he would have beaten Maul pretty handily one-on-one in the first duel, in which he appeared to be wholly focused as well.
That, I attribute, to Adi Gallia's death. Not to mention, as I have pointed out, a favorable environment (which I also believe is what explains Savage's excellent performance against Obi-Wan & Anakin in 'Witches of the Mist'😉.
Bereft of these things, Maul's intent to keep Obi-Wan alive, etc. and I don't see Obi-Wan taking these two out on neutral ground.
But that's all I have to say on the subject, since I'm repeating myself unnecessarily. Feel free to disagree.
KT do you honestly believe that was a normal showing for Obi-Wan and that he can defeat Maul and Opress together for a split or a majority?
If so then your welcome to explain to me why he couldn't defeat Maul alone in their 2 previous One on One fights. Filoni's even confirmed Kenobi was ready and in the right mind set for the second one.
You act as though he lost against Maul... He did no such thing at al. They were simply stalemating. The simple answer is he would've defeated maul eventually and was doing this usual waiting for openings and landing the killing blow. See how easy that was? His first fight doesn't count much as there we ACTUALLY have cirucmstances.. Kenobi wasn't in the right frame of mind. So toss that out. Why are you assuming he was going to lose to maul and thus it's odd he beat both of them? That is you assuming your own conlcusion. He very well could've defeated maul and imo would have. He was doing his usual thing... once Savage got into the mix.. well then he went offensive and took it to them. It's really that simple. Nobody is saying he could beat them each and every time.. but that certainly wsn't a one off and he could've do that again either.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Why are you assuming he was going to lose to maul and thus it's odd he beat both of them? That is you assuming your own conlcusion. He very well could've defeated maul and imo would have.
You're doing the exact same...
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The simple answer is he would've defeated maul eventually and was doing this usual waiting for openings and landing the killing blow.
You do know what assuming your own conclusion is right? He asked me how it was possible Kenobi could stalemate maul and not beat him yet beat both of them? I gave an answer on how that was possible and makese sense. That isn't assuimng your own conlusion buddy. Let's get back to your laughable conclusino that Anakin beats Kenobi in seconds in the other thread LULZ
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You do know what assuming your own conclusion is right? He asked me how it was possible Kenobi could stalemate maul and not beat him yet beat both of them? I gave an answer on how that was possible and makese sense. That isn't assuimng your own conlusion buddy. Let's get back to your laughable conclusino that Anakin beats Kenobi in seconds in the other thread LULZ
No you missed my point completely. Your saying Obi-Wan beat them once, so he beats them every time.
I'm saying(using your logic) that Maul was beating him in Revenge, therefore Maul wins everytime.
Opress stomped Kenobi in Revenge, therefore Opress stomps Kenobi everytime.
When Kenobi and Maul were stalemating Maul was driving Kenobi back the whole time, whilst Kenobi was using his defensive style to just survive. This also explains why Kenobi eventually ran away in Revenge.
So clearly the only win of Kenobi's was a circumstantial one-off. The brothers only lost because they were caught by surprise by Kenobi's offensive. Plus the cramped space made it difficult for the 2 giants to maneuver properly.
Also Kenobi is yet to have a convincing victory over Maul, considering Kenobi's 1 "Win" ended with Maul just fine, and Kenobi knocked out.
Maul was on the run from Kenobi +pirates. It was pirates who shot off his legs. Therefore Maul only lost to Kenobi + Pirates.
See how making up our own explanations work both ways KT 🙂
I'd vote for Kenobi. While Savage has much more raw power with the Force, he doesn't have the efficiency with it to have this battle won for him. Kenobi, on the other hand has sufficient saber skills to injure Savage while holding off Maul under the right circumstances.
Savage can give Kenobi trouble, but I doubt he can win this.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERYou're definition of "stomping" is very different than mine in this case.
Opress stomped Kenobi in Revenge, therefore Opress stomps Kenobi everytime.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERNo, that was because he was previously beaten up by Savage, hence affecting his fighting ability.
When Kenobi and Maul were stalemating Maul was driving Kenobi back the whole time, whilst Kenobi was using his defensive style to just survive. This also explains why Kenobi eventually ran away in Revenge.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERIf anyone was at a disadvantage in that cramped space, it was Kenobi. The brothers were on both sides of him, leaving him nowhere to run, as well as the 2 against 1 factor. That episode made it clear that Kenobi can handle beating 2 powerful individuals WHEN NEEDED. I think that's the point Kurupt is trying to make. So circumstantial? Maybe... A one-off? I don't think so.
So clearly the only win of Kenobi's was a circumstantial one-off. The brothers only lost because they were caught by surprise by Kenobi's offensive. Plus the cramped space made it difficult for the 2 giants to maneuver properly.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERThis I agree with.
Also Kenobi is yet to have a convincing victory over Maul, considering Kenobi's 1 "Win" ended with Maul just fine, and Kenobi knocked out.Maul was on the run from Kenobi +pirates. It was pirates who shot off his legs. Therefore Maul only lost to Kenobi + Pirates.
Originally posted by mnat801
You're definition of "stomping" is very different than mine in this case.
Opress took Kenobi down in a few swings. How was that not a stomp?
Originally posted by mnat801
No, that was because he was previously beaten up by Savage, hence affecting his fighting ability.
He wasn't seriously injured. Maul just getting new legs and being out of action for 10+ years was surely the bigger disadvantage.
Besides Filoni only mentions him not being prepared and in the right mind set. He mentions nothing about the slapping around Kenobi got putting him at some major disadvantage. In fact no one official has noted that as putting his performance down.
He was just fine when Opress stomped him. So clearly it was all just a low showing for Kenobi.
Originally posted by mnat801
If anyone was at a disadvantage in that cramped space, it was Kenobi. The brothers were on both sides of him, leaving him nowhere to run, as well as the 2 against 1 factor. That episode made it clear that Kenobi can handle beating 2 powerful individuals WHEN NEEDED. I think that's the point Kurupt is trying to make. So circumstantial? Maybe... A one-off? I don't think so.
The novel says Maul and Opress were not able to maneuver properley in the cramped space.
But of course the brothers had the clear advantage of 2 against 1.
If the win was circumstantial then it was a rarity. Kenobi isn't Sidious and won't just be beating up the brothers anytime he faces them. Not even for a majority. In fact I'd say only for a very small minority.
If we look at all the times he's faced both brothers, or even one of the brothers in TCW then so far that minority win is 1/7.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERThat wasn't even a fight, he was surprise attacked.
Opress took Kenobi down in a few swings. How was that not a stomp?
Originally posted by DARTH POWERStill both disadvantages.
He wasn't seriously injured. Maul just getting new legs and being out of action for 10+ years was surely the bigger disadvantage.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERWe don't need Filoni to confirm this, its shown in the episode where you can see Obi Wan's face is bruised up. I don't see a reason why it wouldn't put his performance down.
Besides Filoni only mentions him not being prepared and in the right mind set. He mentions nothing about the slapping around Kenobi got putting him at some major disadvantage. In fact no one official has noted that as putting his performance down.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERYou seem to be forgetting that Kenobi was also in that crammed space as well, yet unlike the brothers he performed well in that situation.
The novel says Maul and Opress were not able to maneuver properley in the cramped space.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERSeeing that Kenobi was able to beat them the first time, I'd say that's up for opinion.
If the win was circumstantial then it was a rarity. Kenobi isn't Sidious and won't just be beating up the brothers anytime he faces them. Not even for a majority. In fact I'd say only for a very small minority.If we look at all the times he's faced both brothers, or even one of the brothers in TCW then so far that minority win is 1/7.
By your logic, 1/7 times Kenobi can pull that feat off. That's like picking a red ball out of a hat of 6 white balls. Which is unlikely. Yet Kenobi was able to defeat the brothers in their first showing, which doesn't really help your argument, does it?
Originally posted by mnat801
That wasn't even a fight, he was surprise attacked.
It was a fight, just not a very long one.
Kenobi was ready to fight, and he had time to acknowledge Opress was there before he attacked him.
I'm not saying that's what would normally happen, but it did happen that time.
Kenobi should have been prepared for some one else, or some kind of surprise attack as he was warned by Mace that it was obvious he would be walking into a trap.
Originally posted by mnat801
We don't need Filoni to confirm this, its shown in the episode where you can see Obi Wan's face is bruised up. I don't see a reason why it wouldn't put his performance down.
Not necessarily. In the Slave arc he allowed himself to get beaten up in combat to buy Anakin some time. But when he stopped he was perfectly fine to stomp his opponent and all the droids.
Heck Padawan Luke took a much worse beating from Vader in ESB, and yet got back up and gave him a better fight later even hitting Vader's shoulder.
Maul was definitely with the greater disadvantages at that time Imho, having been out of action for 10+years and just getting new monster legs he had yet to adjust to.
Originally posted by mnat801
You seem to be forgetting that Kenobi was also in that crammed space as well, yet unlike the brothers he performed well in that situation.
Kenobi was a lot smaller than the brothers. We clearly saw he could maneuver just fine with all the flips and somersaults.
Originally posted by mnat801
By your logic, 1/7 times Kenobi can pull that feat off. That's like picking a red ball out of a hat of 6 white balls. Which is unlikely. Yet Kenobi was able to defeat the brothers in their first showing, which doesn't really help your argument, does it?
I don't get what first time your talking about.
The first 2 times he faced Opress with help and was tossed around with the Force.
The next time Opress disarmed him in Lightsaber combat quite quickly.
The next 2 times he fought Maul One on One with no clear winner each time.
Then after Adi died he tried engaging both brothers but was clearly being driven back and he fled.
It was the 7th time he engaged the brothers that he defeated them. But even then the defeat of Maul was with the aid of pirates.
But yeah I still do agree it was a great showing that finally showed us what Kenobi is capable of.
But then I'd say Maul's best showing was probably his final lightsaber fight with Sidious. I doubt Peak Kenobi was > Peak Maul. That added to their 2 one on ones which both seemed able to go either way, is why I say Maul and Kenobi seem to be peers.