Originally posted by iscaremonkeys
so the hulks thunderclap on superman's super sonic ears do nothing..... oh please
Not necessarily his super senses are not always "on", He regulates them like any other of his powers.
In order for Hulk to exploit that, He will have to move really fast and hide from Clark, so He will need to use his super hearing to locate the Hulk, Then Hulk will need to sneak attack his thunder clap.
or caught Kal with his super hearing on, when he is performing the thunderclap.
Come to think of it, since Superman is not using his super speed, this will be basically like one of their fights in the comic books.
Picture something like Marvel vs DC, but besides only being a slug fest, Clark will be using his other powers, like Super breath and He can regulate that one to down top tiers like Maxima or restrain Bizarro with freeze breath
if this was NE Superman he can also use TVO.
If it is constrained to 52 then discard the TVO option and if this is 52 I don't think there is enough evidence to support those claims yet.
Originally posted by iscaremonkeys
exactly. superman is no push-over but with no super speed he loses to hulkSomeone posted superman could freeze hulk and throw him into sun....why cant hulk just break free? throwing him into the sun from a distance (THE SMARTEST WAY TO DO IT ) will take atleast 2 mins.
he could break free
Originally posted by ReflassshhSo I should be providing you these scans, because you've shown anything of DCnU Superman freezing someone's blood on Hulk's level with his super-breath?
scans of hulk using gamma radiation as superman uses freeze breath? or hurting someone who's on superman's level with it?
Way to walk into that one.
Didn't Hulk easily withstand "133+ Hercs" force to his innards? And hasn't it already been stated that he's just as strong/durable on the inside as on the outside?
Why would freeze breath have any effect whatsoever? It's like Torch's nova attack, just washes over Hulk with zero effect.
IIRC Hulk's also overcome being frozen more than once.
http ://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Doggydogg/Superman/Supermanicebreatheact845.jpg
http ://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j105/Rewmac/Scans/Superman/Supermanv2172pg13.jpg
i can't post scans yet, but erase the space between the http and the rest, superman froze bizarro in place and harming imperiex probe with freeze breath.
i know it isn't DCnU supes but he is supposed to be more powerful than pre-52.
Originally posted by iscaremonkeys
exactly. superman is no push-over but with no super speed he loses to hulkSomeone posted superman could freeze hulk and throw him into sun....why cant hulk just break free? throwing him into the sun from a distance (THE SMARTEST WAY TO DO IT ) will take atleast 2 mins.
he could break free
I don't think it's an autowin.
Let's just compare both.
Strength:
At their base, their strength is most likely the same. Both have no limit to their strength. Hulk's growing with anger and Supes when cutting loose.
Durability:
IMHO Supermans Invulnerability gives him the edge but Hulk can keep up thanks to his HF. So let's say equals at first but if the fight goes longer, Hulk should edge him out here.
Speed:
Normaly this is why Superman would beat the Hulk far more often then not. This is not the case in this fight, Supes is handicapped. So both are equal for once.
Intelligence:
Supes with ease.
H2H Skills:
DCnU Supes isn't as good as pre-DCnU Supes. Hulk had some training, Supes did too, maybe equals, probably Hulk due to experience. Though maybe I missed Supes training in martian arts.
Mobility:
Without his speed, Superman can be grounded by a jumping Hulk. So this shouldn't be a factor.
Versatility:
Supes, HV and FB/SB and Thunderclap vs Thunderclap.
IMHO without his speed Superman would have troubles to finish the Hulk in time, before the damage he receives takes it's toll while Hulk will keep on regenerating. With HV and FB combo he might overcome the HF and KO the Hulk, though Hulk could possibly keep up and with the possiblity of an Thunderclap messing with Supes enhanced senses this could go to him.
Originally posted by janus77
Hulk has the greater reach, the greater strength (even holding back he's stronger than Thor et al, so I doubt Superman's as strong as Hulk) and his HF nullifies almost all of Superman's attacks.Hulk should win this, comfortably.
Reach shouldn't be a factor. Hulk is not stronger then Supes, 100% fact. Superman has still the better strength feats. Their are both the strongest in their respective Universes. So without bias this is the only logical conclusion. His HF is the biggest issue, that's what I said. So it comes down to HV+FB+Invulnerability+Punches vs Punches+HF. Can the HV+FB+Punches overcome Hulks HF? I dunno. But if Hulk wins, it won't be easy nor comfortable.
Reach is obviously going to be a factor, since Hulk will have an easier time hitting Superman if Superman attempts to come in close and get physical. Given that you think they're about even, strength-wise, this is going to be the deciding factor in close-quarters.
Also, as far as intelligence goes, it depends on the Hulk in question. Someone like Green Scar is Banner, just as much as he is Hulk. Someone like Professor Hulk/merged Hulk is less of a fighter, a little more naturally hesitant and effective but smart enough to quickly figure out way of neutralising Superman's range attacks (if he feels the need to react to them at all).
As for HV etc, Hulk has shown that he is invulnerable to temps in excess of Torch's supernova + Storm's best lightning attacks, combined. And he's traversed space unprotected so cold has no effect.
The reason I say it will be a comfortable win is that:
1) Hulk starts off, at the very least, the equal of Superman in strength and keeps rising exponentially - Superman needs to prove that he can do that. And
2) Hulk's HF will completely heal any damage that he takes - from major organs to his entire chest and torso in a panel - which, means Superman will struggle to even damage him.
Originally posted by janus77
Reach is obviously going to be a factor, since Hulk will have an easier time hitting Superman if Superman attempts to come in close and get physical. Given that you think they're about even, strength-wise, this is going to be the deciding factor in close-quarters.Also, as far as intelligence goes, it depends on the Hulk in question. Someone like Green Scar is Banner, just as much as he is Hulk. Someone like Professor Hulk/merged Hulk is less of a fighter, a little more naturally hesitant and effective but smart enough to quickly figure out way of neutralising Superman's range attacks (if he feels the need to react to them at all).
As for HV etc, Hulk has shown that he is invulnerable to temps in excess of Torch's supernova + Storm's best lightning attacks, combined. And he's traversed space unprotected so cold has no effect.
The reason I say it will be a comfortable win is that:
1) Hulk starts off, at the very least, the equal of Superman in strength and keeps rising exponentially - Superman needs to prove that he can do that. And2) Hulk's HF will completely heal any damage that he takes - from major organs to his entire chest and torso in a panel - which, means Superman will struggle to even damage him.
Reach won't be an issue tbh, once they are in slugfest range, both will hit and get hit. At first range will be even an big disadvantage for Hulk due to Supes HV and FB.
Prof Hulk would be outclassed in every physical category, brains maybe even too. Green Scar isn't that smart, sry.
He is not invulnerable. He was hurt by Gladiators HV for example. Hulks invulnerability is almost nonexitant, he is durable and has a limited invulnerability, his HF is what keeps him in the game. The cold Supes can muster is greater and worked on heralds before, I see no reason why it shouldn't work on Hulk, the same is true for HV.
1.) They start as equals, Supes without speed will become more serious, here he becomes stronger. Hulk will have to get far more angry to reach those levels. Since Supermans limit is not known and in the Pre-DCnU it was, if needed, infinite and Hulks is said to be infinite too, they will keep on matching the increasing strength. Superman proved it more then once. You surely know about the not holding back, cutting loose or mental blockades, those are no myths but directly from comics. Supermans strength has always been dynamic with no upper limit. It always depends on the story, see FC or OWAW.
2.) Hulk was hurt before and even been koed before. I see no reason why his HF would allow Hulk to no sell the attacks of an High Herald. You can't be serious about that or you overestimate Hulks HF and durability while understimating Supermans damage potential.
Not really, you're taking Savage Hulk's lowest showings, and positing them on current Hulk. Savage Hulk was an adolescent Hulk, one that had less power and was less self-aware. Marvel stated this years ago. Long before Pak came along.
Current Hulk walks through "Thor-level" attacks, takes Adamantium melting lasers at point blank range and basically even punches through time, you really think HV/FB is going to be an issue?
You should realise that Savage Hulk is long gone, that level of strength and durability (which was enough to take Thor), has long been transcended.
As for the no-limits fallacy, you can't seriously try and use "not shown to have a limit" as equal to "he has infinite strength".
If so, let's see Superman arm wrestle Odin or go h2h with Galactus? Not even Hulk, for whom "limitless strength" and "infinite strength" are Marvel descriptions, could argue that.
People exercise reason, Hulk's dynamic strength and durability (the more stressed he is, the more durable he is too - not just HF, durability), are the defining advantages that make him the big gun of the Avengers, that make him the one that does the impossible...
Add to that the fact that he doesn't need to get "angrier" to be exponentially stronger, he hasn't needed to be angry since he stopped being Savage Hulk. Recent (post WWH) Hulk incarnations have gone "WBH" on a whim, if they thought the situation called for it and there would be no casualties.
And yes, Bruce Banner is > Superman, in intellect, regardless of the superspeed brain. Banner is in the top three of Marvel Earth's big brains.
Originally posted by janus77
Not really, you're taking Savage Hulk's lowest showings, and positing them on current Hulk. Savage Hulk was an adolescent Hulk, one that had less power and was less self-aware. Marvel stated this years ago. Long before Pak came along.
I wouldn't call it low showings. Hulk strength grew, the resitance to injuries or invulnerability not so much. Hulk is now stronger ok but more durable or invulnerable? That's a stretch. Cyclops burned WWH skin with his blasts after all.
Originally posted by janus77
Current Hulk walks through "Thor-level" attacks, takes Adamantium melting lasers at point blank range and basically even punches through time, you really think HV/FB is going to be an issue?
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Superman has survived the point blank blast of 50 Supernovas, black holes and more. Well, still both bleed when hit by a being with similar strength.
Originally posted by janus77
You should realise that Savage Hulk is long gone, that level of strength and durability (which was enough to take Thor), has long been transcended.
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Strength maybe, still Hulks best feat is from his grey Hulk days. And he still gets koed by energies released from Thor.
Originally posted by janus77
As for the no-limits fallacy, you can't seriously try and use "not shown to have a limit" as equal to "he has infinite strength".
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I can. That's the argument for Hulk and supes. Though supes proved it by lifting infinity or half of it, which is still infinity and bench pressing earth without his power source for 5 days without breaking more then 1 sweat.
Originally posted by janus77
If so, let's see Superman arm wrestle Odin or go h2h with Galactus? Not even Hulk, for whom "limitless strength" and "infinite strength" are Marvel descriptions, could argue that.
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Yeah, if you wish you can go that road, still both are portrayed in a very similar manner. Both are the strongest there are in their universes and both are below some cosmics still. Spectre or Galactus, what do you expect. But look at their portrayal when put next to fellow heroes from their universes. There is no one stronger then both.
Originally posted by janus77
People exercise reason, Hulk's dynamic strength and durability (the more stressed he is, the more durable he is too - not just HF, durability), are the defining advantages that make him the big gun of the Avengers, that make him the one that does the impossible...
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As said, the same is true for superman. He is the big gun in the DCU or the JL and he does always the "impossible" more so then Hulk tbh.
Originally posted by janus77
Add to that the fact that he doesn't need to get "angrier" to be exponentially stronger, he hasn't needed to be angry since he stopped being Savage Hulk. Recent (post WWH) Hulk incarnations have gone "WBH" on a whim, if they thought the situation called for it and there would be no casualties.
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So he basically became the Superman of the Marvel U, without the flight and Superspeed. Cool. Superman also becomes incalculable strong if needed. Read OWAW or FC.
Originally posted by janus77
And yes, Bruce Banner is > Superman, in intellect, regardless of the superspeed brain. Banner is in the top three of Marvel Earth's big brains. [/B]
No he isn't. Superman comes after his father who is beyond the likes of Banner. Supes doesn't relys on his intellect but when you look at what he built pre DCnU and what he could understand and rebuild, like the miracle machine. That's more like reed level.