Darth Bane vs Darth Malgus

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Point is, being ''beyond forms'', having ''near-perfect skills'' or an ''impenetrable defense'' isn't gonna put you above warriors with impressive feats in combat.

It does when your showings back it up. Zannah survived against and eventually killed a knight, apprenticed to the greatest Jedi duelist of the era, who can be described as nothing less than a hulk, and his massive size belied his speed. Not only was he strong, but his bladework was ridiculously quick. Despite this, Zannah was able to keep every stroke at bay and only came close to defeat because of his sheer strength, which Bane told her from her youth would be what she would have to guard against.

As to Bane, his feats really do speak for themselves. I'm also not sure how you try to claim he never won a duel. He killed Sirak, tooled Qoordis despite the decades of combat the Dark Lord had, he cut down a Sith Adept and a number of Shadow Assassins cloaked in the Force as though they were nothing--a trap that likely would have cost Malgus his life-- and he most certainly defeated Farfalla when he cut the Jedi's head off.

He also most certainly won the saber portion of combat against Zannah every time they engaged. She notes the sheer power and skill of his blade work, and it remains quite relevant considering what she herself survived.

You aren't making a point. Set Harth, Qoordis and Sirak are, as of now, below Ki-Adi Mundi in both combat showings and force showings. They are nothing but fodder.

Yeah, clearly the headmaster of the school they send the strongest Sith to would be weak. Its not as if Sith resort to infighting or anything.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Agen Kolar has been refered to be ''among the best duelists the Order had ever produced'' but his only showing is beating Vos.

Whats your point?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I forgot Sirak is one of the most skilled duelists in the mythos.

An opponent can be skilled and impressive without being the most elite ever. In this case it demonstrates Banes sheer lightsaber ability that he's able to toy with an opponent so powerful people suspected him of being the Sith'ari, who even Lord Kaan was made aware of.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
True he doesn't. Kas'im is completely featless however. The best he's got going for him is being a blademaster like Kao.

Completely featless other than that he's mastered basically all forms of lightsaber combat, to the highest degree, in all the Forms, as well as creating thousands of sequences for each form/lightsaber style. But yeah, he's probably not that skilled. I'd give a B, solid B+.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Agen Kolar has been refered to be ''among the best duelists the Order had ever produced'' but his only showing is beating Vos.

Ascendancy is already taking you to task for this.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Prove it.

...... Huh? It's.... just logical that Bane's speed should let him handle Malgus. Malgus isn't as fast as he is, which gives Bane a huge advantage in lightsaber combat. If Malgus can't keep up with Bane's blade, he dies. Thats it. I've already proven that Bane is amazingly fast, right now its your task to prove that Malgus can handle Bane's speed. What, do you think in a fight where a single hit cuts off limbs that it won't matter?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
...and he's not wearing Orbalisks in the fight we're imagining.

Yes. 😐

So why did you bring it up? You pointed out that Bane would have died if not for the orbalisks, which I countered by pointing out that the text notes that this is because Bane was being reckless due to the orbalisks and that Bane wouldn't be so reckless if not for the orbalisks. Making your entire point....

Originally posted by Intrepid37
You're trying to make Bane sound good by going with his fight with Zannah. In that case you need to prove how good she is and you can't do that by refering to her fight with Bane.

No I'm not. You're trying to make him sound bad by pointing out that he couldn't outspeed her, by which I pointed out that he was able to dance around her without a lightsaber and was pushing her back. Indicating that he was outspeeding her.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Same as above. Prove she was ''impressively fast'' without taking her fight with Bane into account.

No. I'd much rather do it with taking her fight by Bane into account. Bane is impressively fast. Thats fact, I've already proven it by pointing out that he appeared to wield a dozen blades at once and was able to block every raindrop in a torrential storm from hitting him. Zannah being able to parry his at7tacks proves that she's impressively fast, or that her defense is so impressive that it nullifies speed.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Pretty sure I have already agreed that they're fairly equal in dueling.

Well you're wrong. So I ask you: 'Remind me again what Malgus has done thats so impressive you think he can beat draw with one of the top duelists in the mythos?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
And I fight it quite amusing that you ignore Yoda disarming Sidious. 😬

Mostly because I don't really care about what happens in the script. Lucas didn't put it in for a reason, so I don't care about it.

All that I am seeing here is Intrepid trying to low-ball Bane is any way imaginable.

+1 Internets for you, Neph.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Whats your point?

Ascendancy is already taking you to task for this.

Originally posted by Nephthys
An opponent can be skilled and impressive without being the most elite ever. In this case it demonstrates Banes sheer lightsaber ability that he's able to toy with an opponent so powerful people suspected him of being the Sith'ari, who even Lord Kaan was made aware of.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Completely featless other than that he's mastered basically all forms of lightsaber combat, to the highest degree, in all the Forms, as well as creating thousands of sequences for each form/lightsaber style. But yeah, he's probably not that skilled. I'd give a B, solid B+.

Originally posted by Nephthys
...... Huh? It's.... just logical that Bane's speed should let him handle Malgus. Malgus isn't as fast as he is, which gives Bane a huge advantage in lightsaber combat. If Malgus can't keep up with Bane's blade, he dies. Thats it. I've already proven that Bane is amazingly fast, right now its your task to prove that Malgus can handle Bane's speed. What, do you think in a fight where a single hit cuts off limbs that it won't matter?

1. His Force-enhanced reflexes moved faster than their trigger fingers. Without slowing his pace, he pulled his lightsaber into his hand and activated it as the blasters discharged. The red line of his weapon spun so fast in his hand it expanded into a shield.

2. Adraas loosed a flurry of strikes, his blade a humming, red blur as he spun, stabbed, slashed, and cut. Malgus backed off a single step, another, then held his ground, his own blade an answer to all of Adraas's attacks. Adraas shouted as he attacked, the sound that of desperation, filled with the knowledge that he was no match for Malgus.

Finally Malgus answered with an attack of his own, forcing Adraas back with the power and speed of his blows.

3. He closed the distance between them rapidly. The red line of Malgus's lightsaber moved so quickly it blurred into a red smear.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes. 😐

So why did you bring it up? You pointed out that Bane would have died if not for the orbalisks, which I countered by pointing out that the text notes that this is because Bane was being reckless due to the orbalisks and that Bane wouldn't be so reckless if not for the orbalisks. Making your entire point....

😕

Have you really not understood that I'm arguing against DoE Bane?

Originally posted by Nephthys
No I'm not. You're trying to make him sound bad by pointing out that he couldn't outspeed her, by which I pointed out that he was able to dance around her without a lightsaber and was pushing her back. Indicating that he was outspeeding her.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No. I'd much rather do it with taking her fight by Bane into account. Bane is impressively fast. Thats fact, I've already proven it by pointing out that he appeared to wield a dozen blades at once and was able to block every raindrop in a torrential storm from hitting him. Zannah being able to parry his at7tacks proves that she's impressively fast, or that her defense is so impressive that it nullifies speed.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well you're wrong. So I ask you: 'Remind me again what Malgus has done thats so impressive you think he can beat [b]draw with one of the top duelists in the mythos? [/B]

Originally posted by Nephthys
Mostly because I don't really care about what happens in the script. Lucas didn't put it in for a reason, so I don't care about it.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
The points he brought up matters not. Beating Set Harth, a complete joke Means nothing. Being trained by Bane isn't a feat. Defending herself against a strong guy isn't anything.

You're really going to tell me that Lsu would train a sub-par duelist, and further that she and Farfalla after all their experience in the war would choose someone of lesser ability to aid them in taking down the last known Sith, whom they fully understand to be more than capable fighters and Force users? That doesn't make any sense.

So you're really going to act as though he's a no one, despite whom he was trained by, despite the description of his ability, despite the description of the fight and his speed, and then try and claim that we should consider anyone that Malgus fought a worthy adversary and of value in proving his abilities? No joke, if that's what this is going to come down to then no one Malgus faced proves anything in terms of him being a worthwhile combatant.

Originally posted by Intrepid37

When did he dance around her without a lightsaber...?

Originally posted by Ascendancy
So you're really going to act as though he's a no one, despite whom he was trained by, despite the description of his ability, despite the description of the fight and his speed, and then try and claim that we should consider anyone that Malgus fought a worthy adversary and of value in proving his abilities? No joke, if that's what this is going to come down to then no one Malgus faced proves anything in terms of him being a worthwhile combatant.

Am I claiming he's a nobody?

No.

Am I claiming Malgus have fought better opponents?

No.

You are claiming he's a better duelist because the foes he's beaten when in fact they're just as featless as Malgus'.

I have already agreed to them being equal in dueling, so if you want to say otherwise, prove it.

Originally posted by Ascendancy
When he escaped from the dungeon, ashed the guards, and fought her while unarmed and still drugged. It's a fight that's been mentioned more than once in the thread, and is without question an amazing display of ability.

Something of an aside, I'm following this thread and can't help but noting my Legacy characters are actually a good deal easier to back up, with almost everyone having fought multiple feated foes, and sometimes even chains of 'beat X feated character who beat Y feated character who beat Z feated character'.

It's a lot harder with these characters who've only been in two novels or one video game, even if it is a big one.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
RoT or DoE?

Originally posted by Pwned
It was in DoE. If you'd have payed attention to any other posts earlier in the thread, this was brought up several times.

It makes him fast enough to fight a powerful Sith Lord who's whole style of fighting relies on speed and agility.

From what I've seen, Malgus has never shown even CLOSE to the speed that Zannah alone has.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
So he's faster than Zannah. Not sure how that makes him faster than Malgus...?

He managed to avoid the sabers of a dual blade that is described as an impenetrable wall, and does this while in an enclosed hallway.

Regardless, what makes him faster than Malgus is every description of the speed of his blade, i.e., "seeming to wield twelve sabers at once," stopping every drop of rain in a torrential downpour, even his speed displayed when going against Sirak at the academy. You can't really argue against what are very specific descriptions of immense speed during combat, far beyond his blade simply being a blur.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Statements only go so far

...and when he did that, Bane was noting himself to be ''no match'' for Kas'im, if I remember correctly.

Had the Jedi enjoyed the same advantages Bane's orbalisk armor provided, their encounter would have ended long ago. Bane could shrug off otherwise lethal blows, forgoing all sense of personal safety in a reckless assault of pure offense to overwhelm her defenses.

-Rule of Two

Yoda, in comparison to Bane, has

a) Forced Dooku to flee on Geonosis
b) Overpowered Dooku on Vjun where he was amped
c) Disarmed Sidious
d) Confirmed superior to Mace Windu as a duelist
e) Noted as ''perhaps the best duelist the Order had ever produced''.

Yoda would crush Bane. [/B]

Your argument is flawed. Your response to many arguments is "Statements only go so far". Fair enough, so let's see your counters.

-A statement saying that the Jedi could have won with Orbalisks.
-A statement saying Bane was no match for Kas'im.
-A statement saying Yoda>Windu as a duelist
-A statement saying Yoda was the best duelist

That's in this post alone. Your argument, by your rules, is completely invalid.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
-A statement saying that the Jedi could have won with Orbalisks.

Marek's skill being ''near perfect'' means shit, same goes for Bane being ''beyond forms'' or whatever poop. It means they're skilled duelists, but these statements + victory over featless fodder doesn't mean you're super awesome.

The quote I posted isn't a characters opinion, it's the god damn narrator stating something.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
-A statement saying Bane was no match for Kas'im.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
-A statement saying Yoda>Windu as a duelist

a) canon statement? Check.
b) Not an opinion from a in-universe character? Check.
c) No hyperbole? Check.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
-A statement saying Yoda was the best duelist

Weak excuses. The Bane novels are also canon sources. Many of the above used statements were also not character opinions, yet you discounted them.

It all boils down to you discounting them because you think they're ridiculous. Your argument in support of Malgus is great, and I agree that he would give Bane a run for his money, however, your argument against Bane simply is not convincing.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Marek's skill being ''near perfect'' means shit

How can you possibly say that? I acknowledge the ambiguity and hyperbole there, but even so that is an amazingly great description of his skills that puts him up there as likely one of the most technically talented duelists in the mythos. Certainly Malgus has never received such praise, nor anything to indicate that he even approaches that level of ability.

😐

Zannah's only beat Set Harth who is featless. Because she's got ''near impenetrable defenses'' are you really gonna tell me that Yoda is gonna have a hard time defeating her in combat?

Originally posted by Nephthys
How can you possibly say that? I acknowledge the ambiguity and hyperbole there, but even so that is an amazingly great description of his skills that puts him up there as likely one of the most technically talented duelists in the mythos. Certainly Malgus has never received such praise, nor anything to indicate that he even approaches that level of ability.

Sure. He is a good duelist, no doubt. But the statement implies only that he is a good duelist, not that he's above anyone else.

If his skills are ''near perfect'', then Shaak Ti's are even nearer, and Grievous' are even more nearer, and Dooku's would be literally ''perfect'', and Yoda would be... beyond perfect?

Are you comparing Malgus with Yoda? 😬

I would say that if that description was all we knew and it came from an omniscient narrator, yeah he'd probably take some time to get past that. 'Near impenetrable' isn't something you shrug your ****ing shoulders at. It means that even the best would find it a challenge.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Sure. He is a good duelist, no doubt. But the statement implies only that he is a good duelist, not that he's above anyone else.

If his skills are ''near perfect'', then Shaak Ti's are even nearer, and Grievous' are even more nearer, and Dooku's would be literally ''perfect'', and Yoda would be... beyond perfect?

I never said that he was.

Not true. They can be his superior without being superior in lightsaber skill, so long as they are simple faster and better than him. Technical ability is not everything. Unfortunately for Malgus, nothing indicates that he's faster or otherwise superior to Marek.