Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Comic says otherwise.He only needs to re-read the arc to see how Superman was using superspeed from the start of his battles.
Umm, what?
Originally posted by carver9
Mongul doesn't appear to be fighting back in that scene. I think he was just trying to make him bypass his mental blocks. He did an amazing job withstanding all of that.
Wow, you finally got one right. Grats.
Originally posted by Spire
What is interesting about Superman in OWAW is an interview I remember reading Jeph Loeb a long time ago and he basically said this about Superman, "why doesn't Superman train? Why doesn't he use more than one of his powers?"
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Jeph Loeb is a huge part of why preboot Superman is so formidable.
Originally posted by Rao Kal El
I wonder if you already have read the whole story, but if you have not, you should. It was kind of cool.
I haven't found very many appealing DC storylines.
Only one that immediately comes to mind is Dark Knight Returns, by Frank Miller. I've found a few good moments for Blue; I've made a thread or two concerning the best of those. No truly appealing overall stories come to mind, though.
Originally posted by Rao Kal ElThink of what He can casually do to a character that is eating stars
I don't see freeze breath being super-effective against Loki, who is actually not true Asgardian but a special class of Frost Giant according to Wikipedia. I don't see it affecting Thor very much either, not given the way he handles temperature and weather extremes and routinely journeys through space unaided.
Originally posted by Rao Kal ElNow let's see a non-sundipped Superman (who is more likely less powerful than Sundipped) and compare what He does with mental blocks and with out mental blocks when facing the same living opponent:
Here Mental block Superman:
OK Now, notice how he gets rid of his mental blocks right away he enters into speed mode
Now, think this but on a sundipped level and while I might think that a BFR to a magical dimension might work, the extent of his sundipped power is largely unkown. But Based on how non mental block OWAW SM gets into speed mode right away and adding the sun dip power level, I doubt the BFR might work in time, IMO.
Your scans indicate that it takes a lot to get him into speedblitz mindset and that he will still hesitate after that point.
Regarding BFR you've got some more problems, outlined by other posters before:
It's a magic-based attack.
It's not one option but an array of them. One of which includes Thor merely opening a portal into space and more or less willing his target to get sucked in. I saw that happen in the Marvel Team Up featuring Spider-Man and the Valkyrie. Spider-Man spent his time fighting Valkyrie, then Thor. Then Valkyrie, who was possessed, turned on Thor, until Spider-Man figured out that, in some crazy way, Valkyrie's sword was possessing her. He spent several pages fighting the sword (yes, you read that right) while Thor and Valkyrie made romantic overtures to one another. Finally, in exasperation, Spider-Man managed to angle the sword back to the rooftop where he had fought Thor and Valkyrie and quickly explained the problem and his anger. Thor instantly smashed the sword, whereupon some form of malevolent spirit or energy being escaped from it, swearing vengeance. Thor, finally recognizing the danger, immediately threw Mjolnir opening a warp into space.
The spirit/energy being/ectoplasm/whatever-it-was got immediately sucked into the portal against its will and disappeared forever.
No more directed than Dr. Fate's tower transport of those heroes in JLA JSA Vice and Virtue, and apparently just as inescapeable.
I have no reason to believe Superman could avoid such an attack.
Originally posted by Rao Kal ElSundipped Superman would not need to kill in order to win in here, He can subdue and pretty capable of doing so at super speed with out delivering a killing blow.
The fact that Superman has non-lethal options available make this a good point. If it's not deadly, he won't have so much reluctance to use it.
However, I've yet to see Thor so much as taken surprise by a speedy herald-class opponent. He's tended to be as fast as needed. Also, as shown earlier, Thor is perfectly capable of moving faster than light himself. I don't see him able to surprise Thor when even Gladiator moving at or above the speed of light hasn't been able to.
I mean, do these guys know they are in a fight or not?
Also, what it is you're positing Loki is going to be doing all this time?
Loki's not a guy who tends toward direct engagements. He operates behind the scenes. From what I know of Loki, it would be most in-character of him to fade out, get a read of the situation, and then try to trick Superman while Supes battles his brother. He's not going to trade blows with Superman or anyone above Captain America level if he can help it.
Meanwhile, because this is Superman versus team, both of Superman's opponents have to get be knocked out or BFRed but Superman himself is one and done. Loki, in other words, has the option of biding time or trying various magicks while Thor revives, assuming Superman gains initial advantage and doesn't kill Thor. After which, BFR becomes ever more likely, for Loki will have an idea of Superman's physical power, and, perhaps more importantly, so will Thor.
Given those considerations I have to give a slight edge to the team.
Thor fans seem to do a real disservice to their character by so seldom posting any speed-related or reaction feats on these boards.
I don't know why that is, unless the stories themselves feature opponents who can't be made to hurry up in their battles against him.
Nevertheless, I have come across at least one or two ...
Originally posted by -Pr-I don't tend to go for blondes ...
I hear you.
I've made a few exceptions, personally, but I hear you.
Originally posted by -Pr-I don't even know who she is.
I forget that you are actually younger than many of the longtime posters. That was Brandi Chastain. She kicked the winning goal of the 1999 World Cup. She was in remarkably good shape in her playing days.
Still is, from most accounts.
Originally posted by -Pr-
Sure, I had a look ...
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It didn't.
If Superman uncharacteristically blitzes he stands a good chance of winning.
If team opts for BFR they win.
I'm waiting for Salsa to show me either that Superman blitzes living human-type opponents in Our Worlds at War and/or that Thor cannot react to a speedy herald.
Bonus if he's able to show me some feat of magic resistance from Our Worlds at War Superman, but I don't think such a scene exists.
I was more or less counting the minutes till he got a chance to get home and present, but I guess something came up for him ...
Originally posted by carver9
I don't even know how this lasted so long...Superman is amped, its highly debatable if magic even work on him in this state let alone any other tricks they have under their belts (minus bfr).
That's just it. You say it's "highly debate-able" if magic will work on him in this state, but where have you seen Superman prove resistant to magic outside of the Superman Prime storyline?
Good at detecting illusions, is he? Is that why the White Martians almost killed Superman in New World Order, or why Max Lord made him his puppet in the "Sacrifice" storyline?
You may rightly conclude that Superman can knock Loki out with his double "amping" here in a direct hand-to-hand fight but does Loki actually DO that? Does Loki stand there and trade with heavy hitters like his brother or the Hulk or would such be completely out of character for Loki?
What about Thor? PR tells us that Superman is not likely to blitz until he encounters something he can't power through. But what will Thor do when he realizes he faces a power he can't beat through traditional hand-to-hand and that this being has power enough to crack moons with an errant strike, as poster after poster has said in this thread?
There comes a point, and very soon, where faced with enough power, even Thor concludes "Verily stranger, thou art imperiling the denizens of Midgard (Earth). It is irresponsible to battle you, at least on this planet. I must get you the F--- OUT of here!"
What, he BFRs Hulk and Juggernaut after gauging their power but won't think OWAW sundipped Superman a significant enough threat?
Perhaps you want to say Superman knocks Thor out with the 1st punch. That's all right by me, but what's going to happen at that point?
Is Loki going to say "Look here, I don't think you can punch worth a d---, you only knocked out my weakling brother, not a true warrior?"
Is Superman going to ensure that Thor stays down by killing him and then figure a way to put Loki down?
Don't be lazy. Spell it out.
How EXACTLY is an in-character Superman going to stop both Thor AND Loki if THEY actually fight in character and with the resources at THEIR disposal given Superman's own history, magic weakness or no?