Originally posted by carver9👆 LOL
I don't even know how this lasted so long...Superman is amped, its highly debatable if magic even work on him in this state let alone any other tricks they have under their belts (minus bfr).
BTW where is Loki when he is intangible?
Can superman get to him before he becomes intangible?
What's to stop superman from grabbing loki and using him on thor as a rattle?
Superman's speed should weigh heavily on who can react first.
All this points to a superman win. With or without bfr.
Superman doesn't have unlimited time, P.R.
It's not just a matter of seeing through illusions, it's seeing through illusions before Thor and Loki confront him with a hidden REALITY that can put him away (i.e. BFR to a red sun system, teleport to a black hole, opening of a warp in space, whisking away to a magical dimension like Fate's tower or Jotunheim, etcetera etcetera).
Can Superman see through illusions in TIME to pull out a win if those are used against him? I don't think so. I'm not sure you do either, else you wouldn't have written that you actually were minded to give the win to the team instead of Superman back on page 1 or 2.
You might want to use JLA New World Order as its own counter-example, for instance. Superman was felled by that deception but eventually saw through it. You'd be forgetting it took him till book 4 of that 4 issue story arc to do so, and he only had the time necessary because Batman and Martian Manhunter GAVE him the time and clues he needed.
Similarly you might argue that some part of Superman must have resisted through Sacrifice, else Batman would be dead. You'd be ignoring that Greg Rucka, writer of that series himself said flatly that Superman was brought completely under control, completely convinced, and was only released because Diana forced Max Lord to release Superman. He did not recover from that on his own.
Really, I have a hard time recalling where Superman DOES break free of an illusion on his own. Maybe Emperor Joker? I remember him saying something like "Do NOT imagine pink elephants ... Do NOT imagine pink elephants ..." in a final desperate effort to save reality ...
What happened with Maxwell Lord isn't even close to being a typical example, so it really isn't relevant to this battle.
Given that Loki and Thor aren't likely to BFR Superman from the outset, there would be time for him to see through their illusions, assuming the magic aspect of them doesn't stop him.
Do you think that because you haven't seen them, I should be required to go through my comics even though there are numerous respect threads across numerous sites?
Originally posted by -Pr-Do you think that because you haven't seen them, I should be required to go through my comics even though there are numerous respect threads across numerous sites?
No, and I'm wondering now if I haven't said something that upset you somehow 'cause you don't usually respond like that.
I'm only telling you what I've read and know about, and what I've mentioned are very famous examples indeed. It doesn't require encyclopedic knowledge for anyone to be familiar with Sacrifice, for instance, arguably the most famous Superman/Wonder Woman fight in the past 20 years. I don't consider it anything obscure or unreasonable and I doubt the average fan would either. But the simple fact is that Max Lord is a famous case of a man with illusion power doing such a number on Superman's mind that he made him a puppet.
Protex had such an effect with the illusion HE created that he needed do little more than step on Superman and drag him away.
Loki, as explained to me by Jake only a page or so ago, was able to cast such a whammy on Thor, a demigod, that he got Thor to kill a fellow hero as if he were no more than a pebble chucked into a pond.
What's to stop him from having a similar effect on Superman?
Thor going for the kill can beat supes. planet wide storms, godblasts, bfr him to the edge of the universe etc. But Thor hasn't use his powers that much in comics. Supes has shown intangibility, speed blitz, planet wide heat vision,etc. So in a forum fight looking at powersets Thor should win but going by character supes push his shit in real good.
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Why do ppl bring this BFR right away. Is that even in character for Loki and Thor?
When faced with a force that is obviously overwhelmingly superior or where battling the opponent would lead to accidental casualties and/or great destruction, yes, it is in character for Thor to remove said opponent from the battlefield. The tougher an opponent Thor finds them, in layman's terms, the more likely he is to battlefield remove (BFR).
However, I am not suggesting Thor "BFRs right away".
I'm just playing this out logically based on what I know and have read of the characters. If Thor knows he's in a fight, he's going to be on guard, and he's got speed enough to dodge lasers and fight with heralds like Gladiator who have faster than light speed, and I showed him moving at three times the speed of light himself just a page or so ago.
Is Superman lightly going to tag this guy? If he does, will he knock him out? If he knocks out Thor, is Loki going to stand around and see if Superman can knock him out as well, or is he going to do something sensible, like turn invisible or intangible or cast some spell to protect himself? I don't deny for one instant that Superman could handle Loki in a hand-to-hand fight. But do you HONESTLY think Loki's going to try to stand there and do that? Especially if he witnesses Thor going down a moment prior? What makes sense in YOUR mind for Loki to do, given his abilities? Anything at all?
Originally posted by JakeTheBankSuperman's senses should be able to detect holograms ...
what kind of feats does he have against specifically mystical type illusions from someone of Loki's caliber?
Still amazed to find this was "real" ...
Spider-Man can be annoying at times, of course, but ...
Loki's got some serious mojo if he can make people mental enough to do stuff like THIS ...
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
No, and I'm wondering now if I haven't said something that upset you somehow 'cause you don't usually respond like that.I'm only telling you what I've read and know about, and what I've mentioned are very famous examples indeed. It doesn't require encyclopedic knowledge for anyone to be familiar with Sacrifice, for instance, arguably the most famous Superman/Wonder Woman fight in the past 20 years. I don't consider it anything obscure or unreasonable and I doubt the average fan would either. But the simple fact is that Max Lord is a famous case of a man with illusion power doing such a number on Superman's mind that he made him a puppet.
Protex had such an effect with the illusion HE created that he needed do little more than step on Superman and drag him away.Loki, as explained to me by Jake only a page or so ago, was able to cast such a whammy on Thor, a demigod, that he got Thor to kill a fellow hero as if he were no more than a pebble chucked into a pond.
What's to stop him from having a similar effect on Superman?
I wasn't trying to be rude or offensive; so I hope it didn't come across that way.
If you'd read the Maxwell Lord situation like you said you had, then you'd also know that Lord was only able to affect Superman because he spent literal years doing it very gradually, which is something entirely different to what Superman will be faced with in this situation.
Superman's mental resistances are upper tier when it comes to heralds.
Now, the Martian one is an example, I grant you that. But how about when Superman deduced that the holograms on warworld weren't real? Or when the images of the Legion weren't real?
He has more instances of seeing through stuff than he does of stuff fooling him.
He's not unusually susceptible to stuff like that, unless of course the magical element is what gets to him.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I haven't found very many appealing DC storylines.
Only one that immediately comes to mind is Dark Knight Returns, by Frank Miller. I've found a few good moments for Blue; I've made a thread or two concerning the best of those. No truly appealing overall stories come to mind, though.
What can I say. You should, because there is good material to be read. I recommend you to read Batman "Cacophony" or "No man's land" there is plenty of good material to read. You just have to take a chance.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I don't see freeze breath being super-effective against Loki, who is actually not true Asgardian but a special class of Frost Giant according to Wikipedia. I don't see it affecting Thor very much either, not given the way he handles temperature and weather extremes and routinely journeys through space unaided.
I think you missed the point here. I was implying the power level in which He is operating at sun dipped levels, Not that He will particularly use freeze breath to defeat a frost giant offspring. I that case I will say HV will do the job, specially when HE can warm earth almost instantly
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Your scans indicate that it takes a lot to get him into speedblitz mindset and that he will still hesitate after that point.
lol, no. The scans indicate that in a no-mental block mind state, He will go for the speed attacks, kind of turning CIS off.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Regarding BFR you've got some more problems, outlined by other posters before:It's a magic-based attack.
It's not one option but an array of them. One of which includes Thor merely opening a portal into space and more or less willing his target to get sucked in. I saw that happen in the Marvel Team Up featuring Spider-Man and the Valkyrie. Spider-Man spent his time fighting Valkyrie, then Thor. Then Valkyrie, who was possessed, turned on Thor, until Spider-Man figured out that, in some crazy way, Valkyrie's sword was possessing her. He spent several pages fighting the sword (yes, you read that right) while Thor and Valkyrie made romantic overtures to one another. Finally, in exasperation, Spider-Man managed to angle the sword back to the rooftop where he had fought Thor and Valkyrie and quickly explained the problem and his anger. Thor instantly smashed the sword, whereupon some form of malevolent spirit or energy being escaped from it, swearing vengeance. Thor, finally recognizing the danger, immediately threw Mjolnir opening a warp into space.
The spirit/energy being/ectoplasm/whatever-it-was got immediately sucked into the portal against its will and disappeared forever.No more directed than Dr. Fate's tower transport of those heroes in JLA JSA Vice and Virtue, and apparently just as inescapeable.
I have no reason to believe Superman could avoid such an attack.
Couple of things, I have seen the instance and the ectoplasmic entity did not dodge the bfr, Since I read that comic I can tell you that the ectoplasmic entity did not had super speed nor even body mass to fight against such tactic.
Dr. Fate BFR worked on a KO'ed Superman, He was not even moving.
Now, you can assume that Superman is just going to stay there with out moving and it may work, because he is not moving nor resisting it, but if he is awake and sun dipped?
This is what he endured while amped with kismet
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
The fact that Superman has non-lethal options available make this a good point. If it's not deadly, he won't have so much reluctance to use it.However, I've yet to see Thor so much as taken surprise by a speedy herald-class opponent. He's tended to be as fast as needed. Also, as shown earlier, Thor is perfectly capable of moving faster than light himself. I don't see him able to surprise Thor when even Gladiator moving at or above the speed of light hasn't been able to.
I mean, do these guys know they are in a fight or not?
I'm guessing We are reading different comics, because here, even though Thor has the time dilation advantage and He already is prepared for attack, Gladiator manages 2 punches with out Thor responding. Bear in mind that THOR has the full effect of time dilation and this Gladiator has been exerting himself to keep those speeds.
Look here, He already knows something is about to happen and He is ready for the attack and yet Gladiator lands the first attack
and then a second attack
I know Thor is fast, but there are some level of speeds he won't be able to react to. Relatively speaking Gladiator's reflexes are above Thor's and this is a Marvel constant.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Also, what it is you're positing Loki is going to be doing all this time?
Loki's not a guy who tends toward direct engagements. He operates behind the scenes. From what I know of Loki, it would be most in-character of him to fade out, get a read of the situation, and then try to trick Superman while Supes battles his brother. He's not going to trade blows with Superman or anyone above Captain America level if he can help it.Meanwhile, because this is Superman versus team, both of Superman's opponents have to get be knocked out or BFRed but Superman himself is one and done. Loki, in other words, has the option of biding time or trying various magicks while Thor revives, assuming Superman gains initial advantage and doesn't kill Thor. After which, BFR becomes ever more likely, for Loki will have an idea of Superman's physical power, and, perhaps more importantly, so will Thor.
Given those considerations I have to give a slight edge to the team.
This is why I say, you should read OWAW, I know this is a team of two, but Superman is fighting on another level.
Let me post this, because I know not everybody has read OWAW so they should be given some context
The Imperex Probes were apparently "unstoppable" until Superman defeated the first one.
Lets see what they have done
This is before "our universe" they failed to stop it
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/VS%20IMPEREX%20PROBES/COMPARE%20OTHERS%20VS%20IMPEREX%20PROBES/005_zps4c37b1eb.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/VS%20IMPEREX%20PROBES/COMPARE%20OTHERS%20VS%20IMPEREX%20PROBES/007_zpsed94dac1.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/VS%20IMPEREX%20PROBES/COMPARE%20OTHERS%20VS%20IMPEREX%20PROBES/006_zpsb5ae15b8.jpg
This was Kalnor "home of despero"
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/VS%20IMPEREX%20PROBES/COMPARE%20OTHERS%20VS%20IMPEREX%20PROBES/012_zpsd5f7d4a2.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/VS%20IMPEREX%20PROBES/COMPARE%20OTHERS%20VS%20IMPEREX%20PROBES/013_zps44a3d6e4.jpg
Gordanians also failed
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/VS%20IMPEREX%20PROBES/COMPARE%20OTHERS%20VS%20IMPEREX%20PROBES/018_zps1f73ad1d.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/VS%20IMPEREX%20PROBES/COMPARE%20OTHERS%20VS%20IMPEREX%20PROBES/019_zps825ef8e4.jpg
Almerac also failed
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/VS%20IMPEREX%20PROBES/COMPARE%20OTHERS%20VS%20IMPEREX%20PROBES/020_zps6d2edf8c.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/VS%20IMPEREX%20PROBES/COMPARE%20OTHERS%20VS%20IMPEREX%20PROBES/021_zpsfe80238c.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/VS%20IMPEREX%20PROBES/COMPARE%20OTHERS%20VS%20IMPEREX%20PROBES/022_zpsc74dfe26.jpg
Keep in mind this are alien races with alien tech.
But since I know this probably does not mean much to you, lets see what did it took to stop probes besides Superman and Doomsday.
JLA
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/VS%20IMPEREX%20PROBES/COMPARE%20OTHERS%20VS%20IMPEREX%20PROBES/JLA-OurWorldsAtWarpg01_zpsbb019e80.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/VS%20IMPEREX%20PROBES/COMPARE%20OTHERS%20VS%20IMPEREX%20PROBES/JLA-OurWorldsAtWarpg02_zps47a5ac54.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/VS%20IMPEREX%20PROBES/COMPARE%20OTHERS%20VS%20IMPEREX%20PROBES/JLA-OurWorldsAtWarpg03_zps8d1ab119.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/VS%20IMPEREX%20PROBES/COMPARE%20OTHERS%20VS%20IMPEREX%20PROBES/JLA-OurWorldsAtWarpg04_zps62d56001.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/VS%20IMPEREX%20PROBES/COMPARE%20OTHERS%20VS%20IMPEREX%20PROBES/JLA-OurWorldsAtWarpg05_zps635bb99f.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/VS%20IMPEREX%20PROBES/COMPARE%20OTHERS%20VS%20IMPEREX%20PROBES/JLA-OurWorldsAtWarpg06-1_zps128530f5.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/VS%20IMPEREX%20PROBES/COMPARE%20OTHERS%20VS%20IMPEREX%20PROBES/JLA-OurWorldsAtWarpg07-1_zpsf232ee59.jpg
Now notice how before the JLA has not been able to pierce their armor so far, Superman come in
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/VS%20IMPEREX%20PROBES/COMPARE%20OTHERS%20VS%20IMPEREX%20PROBES/JLA-OurWorldsAtWarpg09_zpsff78289f.jpg
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/VS%20IMPEREX%20PROBES/COMPARE%20OTHERS%20VS%20IMPEREX%20PROBES/JLA-OurWorldsAtWarpg10_zpse9dcc281.jpg
First thing right of the bat at super speed he snatches Aquaman, cuts the probe armor's and closes it so it does not explodes
Wonder Woman opens the armor with super strength and a wedge from her shield
How did the JLA ends?
Only Aquaman who was saved by Superman ends ok
Before I continue, I know You like Wonder Woman so you notice that she was wearing her Amazonian armor and you should know that she does not wears the armor just for kicks, right?
Also Kyle at the time of this fight was actually capable of building planets, (actually Warworld was the "pluto planet" Kyle created) and He was getting rid of his limitations. Ok but lets continue.
Lets see how other did
The ones that did actually were able to stop the probes were
Aquaman with Neptune's trident and Armor
the result:
Black lighting was able to CRACK an Imperex Probe armor while redirecting some atomic reactor of unknown power, and his own power at the probe. This SAME probe had already battle Supergirl (danvers) Blithe, Comet and the Army.
Wonder Woman and Hipolyta while on battle gear were also capable to pierce the armor, mainly with her weapons (Lasso and shield) but not with their fists.
Now lets see How Superman with no mental blocks did against the probes
Again the limitations go off and this is how he attacks
Of course, unlike WW he can tank the explosions with out extra gear to protect him
A few more, please notice how DD and SM are pretty much one shooting probes
Here is another example
I believe this direct comparison under the same writer is great example of How Superman with no mental blocks was defeating characters who Wonder Woman under NORMAL circumstances will not be able to defeat.
Therefore Superman with no mental blocks is a beast in another level.
Add this to the fact that Superman is sun dipped and I will have a really hard time seeing the team win.
Originally posted by carver9
Imagine if someone like Surfer or Thor going through that same type of training.
I believe Thor had already a lot of training. SS will be different.
Originally posted by -Pr-
Umm, what?
I though you said Superman will not use Super speed , He was shown to move really fast at the first exchange of attacks
This Superman in particular teds to get speedy really fast. and in here He is on an amped state, I think everywhere he moved He moved at Super speed.
Originally posted by carver9Superman underwent the training to remove mental blocks he himself had placed. Those blocks were so strong and instilled within him that he had to undergo this training just to remove them. I don't think Thor nor SS have mental blocks that force them to hold back like the ones superman placed on himself, so Im not sure how that training will help thor or SS.
Imagine if someone like Surfer or Thor going through that same type of training.
