Originally posted by abhilegend
Thorbuster armor is not canon. Its from an alternate reality.
Says who?
I'm looking at volume 3 issue 64 of Iron Man (first appearance of the Thorbuster armor). Standoff is a three part cross over arc (Thor #58, Iron Man #64, Avengers #63) and I don't have numbers 1 or 3 but nothing I'm seeing on the subject says it's an alternate reality.
Edit: You're talking about the Reigning arc? Doesn't change the fact that Thorbuster is canon to 616.
Originally posted by beatboks1. I don't see how any of that puts Dox's forcefield over Cap's shield, let alone the more durable Thorbuster armor.
1. Vril's force field has withstood black and yellow lanterns, point nlank Nuclear blasts and the the attacks of Pulsar Stargrave ( who in LoSH has taken down Superboy, Mon-el and ultra boy). at the very least it's a match.
2. Starro used Silica's capability. Dox still designed and biult the AI that Starro used without making any changes to it.
3. again he subliminal program was created and designed by Vril. his father and son simply used it once they found it. Vril used a modified watered down version regain the loyalty of his troops after he shut down the program that Lyrl had used. IIRC some of his higher operatives also questioned whether he had used it to have so many so fiercely loyal to him so quick after taking over the Cairn police force. he answered the quieries by fiving them full access to his computers. I would say a history of designing IT and subliminal programs thatcan control on a galactic level plays to the character who created them more than the one who may have eventually used them. After the Lyrl thing he set up safe guards to ensure it never happened again. I never got the end of the last run but would assume an in character Vril would have done the same after regaining control of Silica.
Thorbuster armor is canon.
When King Thor went back in time to warn present day Thor of the future, the events which occurred right before Thor went beserk and killed Jake Olsen still happened by that point in time, which includes the Thorbuster armor skirmish. The only things that were prevented were Thor killing Olsen and forcibly taking over the world and killing many of his former allies in the process. But Asgard being moved to the Earthly plane and all the events which lead up to the government attacking it certainly still happened.
Not sure where the idea came from that it's not canon came from?
Originally posted by Sh3nG L0nG
I will admit there were a few episodes that made me a little giddy inside, though they were few and far between. For such a long series, I think I could count them with one hand. Pretty sad actually, but as a superman fan, I watched the whole series.
Originally posted by ODG
1. I don't see how any of that puts Dox's forcefield over Cap's shield, let alone the more durable Thorbuster armor.
2. It could be my fault, but that didn't really clear things up for me.
3. Neither did that.
I'm not saying over but basically his force fields have tanked damage that Superman could dish out and take. I've seen nothing from Thorbuster armor to indicate it could take that that level of Damage. Basically Dox's force field has tanked planet destroying attacks. Pulsar Stargrave can solo the LoSH and take out 5 Kryptonian level beings almost at once. He is basically a living star with Kryptonian level strength durability etc. PS hates Dox more than anyone becaue it was Dox who ripped his 2000 year long reign over Colu from him and trapped him in his carbon based form ( a thing he hates). I can assure you he would not have been holding back against Dox.
To simplify the other two.
Dox designed and built silica and cam up with his enhanced charisma program.
Silica, his creation ( with NO CHANGES made by anyone else) has feats of technopathically controlling whole quadrants of space / entire galaxies at the same time. This far and away exceeds the best feat Tony has with any of his devices in technopathy.
The enhanced charisma program when used by others has allowed them to completely control worlds or galaxies. When used by Dox it's made a world hero worship him to the point they will do what ever he says.
Tony has no defense against subliminal messages and since he is predominantly a tech guy is MORE susceptible to them than a non tech player. That combined with the fact that a superior technopath is standard gear for Dox means Dox can control both Tony's armor and mind/perceptions/motivations from the outset of the fight. One could argue that tony also has technopathic feats except it would be like arguing that Luke Cage has super strength and can match Superman. Using technopathy on a global scale cannot compare to having a device that does it on a galactic one.
Originally posted by beatboks... are you comparing Superman to King Thor???
I'm not saying over but basically his force fields have tanked damage that Superman could dish out and take. I've seen nothing from Thorbuster armor to indicate it could take that that level of Damage. Basically Dox's force field has tanked planet destroying attacks.
Originally posted by beatboksEven taking all that for granted, I still don't understand how Kryptonian strength trumps King Thor's attacks (who wasn't holding back either).
Pulsar Stargrave can solo the LoSH and take out 5 Kryptonian level beings almost at once. He is basically a living star with Kryptonian level strength durability etc. PS hates Dox more than anyone becaue it was Dox who ripped his 2000 year long reign over Colu from him and trapped him in his carbon based form ( a thing he hates). I can assure you he would not have been holding back against Dox.
Originally posted by beatboksGranting what you say, Silica easily sounds like a greater technopath than Stark was. Though the more you keep trying to describe it, the less Starro there seems to be. Why the disconnect?
To simplify the other two.Dox designed and built silica and cam up with his enhanced charisma program.
Silica,[b] his creation
( with NO CHANGES made by anyone else) has feats of technopathically controlling whole quadrants of space / entire galaxies at the same time. This far and away exceeds the best feat Tony has with any of his devices in technopathy.The enhanced charisma program when used by others has allowed them to completely control worlds or galaxies. When used by Dox it's made a world hero worship him to the point they will do what ever he says.
Tony has no defense against subliminal messages and since he is predominantly a tech guy is MORE susceptible to them than a non tech player. That combined with the fact that a superior technopath is standard gear for Dox means Dox can control both Tony's armor and mind/perceptions/motivations from the outset of the fight. One could argue that tony also has technopathic feats except it would be like arguing that Luke Cage has super strength and can match Superman. Using technopathy on a global scale cannot compare to having a device that does it on a galactic one. [/B]
I don't see why you would assume Stark has no defense against subliminal messages or why this enhanced charisma would prove especially effective against a tech opponent like Stark. If you have scans of Vril Dox easily controlling his opponents from the outset of his fights (especially tech-oriented ones), I'm interested in seeing them.
Either way, the sheer scale of Silica's feat is impressive. For sheer scale, do you believe that Stark prepping and thwarting an Abstract force of the universe is impressive? Because this isn't a random encounter but a prep war.
Originally posted by ODG
... are you comparing Superman to King Thor??? Even taking all that for granted, I still don't understand how Kryptonian strength trumps King Thor's attacks (who wasn't holding back either). Granting what you say, Silica easily sounds like a greater technopath than Stark was. Though the more you keep trying to describe it, the less Starro there seems to be. Why the disconnect?I don't see why you would assume Stark has no defense against subliminal messages or why this enhanced charisma would prove especially effective against a tech opponent like Stark. If you have scans of Vril Dox easily controlling his opponents from the outset of his fights (especially tech-oriented ones), I'm interested in seeing them.
Either way, the sheer scale of Silica's feat is impressive. For sheer scale, do you believe that Stark prepping and thwarting an Abstract force of the universe is impressive? Because this isn't a random encounter but a prep war.
On the first two point what I'm trying to say is that there are a few instances of his force fields tanking things that Superman couldn't. Pulsar Stargrave has taken on and down four or five Kryptonian level beings at once, yet he has not done so to Dox courtesy of his shields. Dox has defeated him several times. If Dox's shield on three or four occasions has withstood damage that a couple of Kryptonian level beings have been shown unable too, I'd say that is a durability feat above anything I've seen or heard of from the Thor buster armor ( which from my understanding could not "bust" or withstand Thor.
I'm really not sure what your fixation is on Starro. It wasn't a starro feat it was a feat of Silica Dox's personal AI and Force Field. I never "connected" Starro to the feat to have to disconnect him. All Starro did was have a couple of LEGION operatives who were controlled by his spors enter LEGION HQ that enabled him to take Silica as his own.. If Tony created a weapon that could destroy a solar system and normally carries, and someone stole it and used it would it make that weapon that he normally has no longer valid for him?? I fail to see why I have to "play down" Starro's part at all. he stole a device that Dox created which allowed him to control several galaxies in a fraction of the time it would have normally taken him to conquer them.
Dox's prep is quite a thing to behold. he has
With a weeks prep as I recall altered his own DNA to enhance himself enough that he could best Lobo in a hand to hand fight.
With a coupe of days prep taken over a planet, defeated and destroyed every criminal on it and created an intergalactic police force.
With a few days prep defeated a galactic piracy ring that had four galaxies in fear and dissarray
With a month or so's prep and a little Spin doctoring he has basically conquered several galaxies and stopped the expansion of Four galactic empires.
With two days prep and under equipped he has orchestrated a complete evacuation of a planet about to be destroyed when he was told by every source that the resources to do so were impossible.
With mere hours prep he orchestrated a jail break from an inescapable prison designed to hold even powerful beings like Daxamites
While flying to his homework he planned and orchestrated the downfall of a tyrannical rule that had lasted for almost 4000 years.
He has with prep defeated his father with three seperate actions. he layed out one that was a diliberate attack that he knew his father Brainiac would know was a ruse. He also had a second attack that was actually set up to allow him to be captured by his father and was truly another ruse but even Brainiac didn't suspect. he further planted a trap within his mind awaiting for the moment he was caught by his father. Knowing that his father would sense he was "hiding " something in his mind and his arrogance would not rest until he knew what it was he proceeded to break Vril's defense. The irony was that because he had to push so hard to actually do so once he was in to Vril's mind he had no defense for the mental trap that Vril had layed ( his real intended plan for victory). Brainiac was over whelmed by the sheer emotion that Vrill had contained in his trap and was broken.
Add to this that over the course of his history he has developed weapons and devices that have countered or simply shut down the powers of every operative he has working for him. he made a temporary immunity to lead for Valor/ Mon-el, he shut off Phase's intagibility, The Durlans Shape shifting ( which in turn caused him agony). When he was killed he had a spare back up clone body ready to transfer his consciousness to. With little more than a handful of operatives who don't trust him and are skeptical of his every move he has defeated galactic spanning forces like 4 times.
I'm not even saying he has better prep here, I'm just saying he wont be out done. He has defeated beings far more intelligent than him several times because of his use of psychology and playing their own character.
^ If I understand your reasoning correctly, I'm not sure how wise it is to take Pulsar Stargrave's original pre-Crisis feats and reverse-project that onto Vril Dox. Either way, Thor isn't King Thor. So trying to use Thor as a measurement stick for the Thorbuster armor is faulty. You should use King Thor, who dented in Cap's shield with a single blow, but did not do so against the Thorbuster armor and only defeated it after an extended brawl.
You made it sound like Starro used Silica to help him control those galaxies. Now you're making it sound like Starro himself had absolutely nothing to do with actually controlling those galaxies. That's the disconnect I am pointing out. If Starro really had nothing to do with it all, then ok.
Your list, while extensive, doesn't seem to measure up to Stark's feat of directly engaging and disrupting an Abstract force of the universe -- if that's what the list was intended to address in the first place. I mean... at least to me, your list doesn't seem to buttress your other notion that Vril Dox would easily control his opponents (especially tech-oriented ones) at the outset of a fight with the enhanced charisma you mentioned.
Originally posted by ODG
^ If I understand your reasoning correctly, I'm not sure how wise it is to take Pulsar Stargrave's original pre-Crisis feats and reverse-project that onto Vril Dox. Either way, Thor isn't King Thor. So trying to use Thor as a measurement stick for the Thorbuster armor is faulty. You should use King Thor, who dented in Cap's shield with a single blow, but did not do so against the Thorbuster armor and only defeated it after an extended brawl.You made it sound like Starro used Silica to help him control those galaxies. Now you're making it sound like Starro himself had absolutely nothing to do with actually controlling those galaxies. That's the disconnect I am pointing out. If Starro really had nothing to do with it all, then ok.
Your list, while extensive, doesn't seem to measure up to Stark's feat of directly engaging and disrupting an Abstract force of the universe -- if that's what the list was intended to address in the first place. I mean... at least to me, your list doesn't seem to buttress your other notion that Vril Dox would easily control his opponents (especially tech-oriented ones) at the outset of a fight with the enhanced charisma you mentioned.
As I understand it ( from what I've seen in several forums and scans to support) Tony's Thor buster armor didn't even stand up to normal Thor, how could it then take King Thor. That just doesn't make sense to me. I'm basing these assessments on the fact that normal Thor seriously damaged his so called Thor buster armor. That being the case it could not possibly be as durable as something that can and has withstood forces above that.
Also re the pre COIE feats of LoSH they are completely valid. LoSH retained tehe exact same continuity post COIE they even changed it so that TT created a pocket Universe so Superboy ( who no longer existed ) was still their driving influence. There were some very minor changed in the mid 90's ( post the first runs of LEGION/REBELS) and again in 2001. In infinite Crisis their continuity was put back to pre crisis exactly. Every single story featuring Vril Dox came from a period when LoSH continuity WAS pre COIE.
Starro used Silica's technopathy to ensure he had no resistance as his spors flooded through the universe in hyper speed. None of the war ships, weapons etc were functional to defend against his little stars. He controlled the people once he had possessed them but the feat of technopathically controlling all the devices across vast reaches of space was solely Silica after he gained possession.
Any teach based hero is going to have all their weaponry under the control of silica. That's a given. When Lyrl Dox as an infant found his fathers program burried deep within his fathers system he made a simple change to it so that he was the patron of the enhanced charisma and not his father. The result was that anyone within the reach of a piece of technology that could be reached in the grid was under his control. Anyone who could see a computer screen, hear a signal from a device sending the auditory subliminal messages. Tony has a lot of those things in hiss armor. Multiple points where a subliminal message can get in. Seriously I don't see this as a stretch at all. Plus it's not like it's even something Tony would be prepared for with Prep. Dox's inner circle kept the idea that he controlled whole populations with brain washing very bloody secret. Even if he was how do you prepare yourself for something that acts only on teh subconscious mind.
Dox has also faced Eclipso and Neron at their peaks of power. During Underworld unleashed Dox actually managed to trick a favor out of Neron while not giving him his soul. Instead he sold the souls of others he would control if he was given what he wanted and then simply never even tried to take control.
Dox has also faced Eclipso in "heart of Darkness", plus Ion, Lady Styx, Synarr and his masters the "Nameless, as well as the new god's (including Shazam), X'Hal and defeated them. All are god's/abstract beings. That's hardly a feat exclusive to any single character.
Originally posted by beatboks
As I understand it ( from what I've seen in several forums and scans to support) Tony's Thor buster armor didn't even stand up to normal Thor, how could it then take King Thor. That just doesn't make sense to me. I'm basing these assessments on the fact that normal Thor seriously damaged his so called Thor buster armor. That being the case it could not possibly be as durable as something that can and has withstood forces above that.Also re the pre COIE feats of LoSH they are completely valid. LoSH retained tehe exact same continuity post COIE they even changed it so that TT created a pocket Universe so Superboy ( who no longer existed ) was still their driving influence. There were some very minor changed in the mid 90's ( post the first runs of LEGION/REBELS) and again in 2001. In infinite Crisis their continuity was put back to pre crisis exactly. Every single story featuring Vril Dox came from a period when LoSH continuity WAS pre COIE.
Starro used Silica's technopathy to ensure he had no resistance as his spors flooded through the universe in hyper speed. None of the war ships, weapons etc were functional to defend against his little stars. He controlled the people once he had possessed them but the feat of technopathically controlling all the devices across vast reaches of space was solely Silica after he gained possession.
Any teach based hero is going to have all their weaponry under the control of silica. That's a given. When Lyrl Dox as an infant found his fathers program burried deep within his fathers system he made a simple change to it so that he was the patron of the enhanced charisma and not his father. The result was that anyone within the reach of a piece of technology that could be reached in the grid was under his control. Anyone who could see a computer screen, hear a signal from a device sending the auditory subliminal messages. Tony has a lot of those things in hiss armor. Multiple points where a subliminal message can get in. Seriously I don't see this as a stretch at all. Plus it's not like it's even something Tony would be prepared for with Prep. Dox's inner circle kept the idea that he controlled whole populations with brain washing very bloody secret. Even if he was how do you prepare yourself for something that acts only on teh subconscious mind.
Dox has also faced Eclipso and Neron at their peaks of power. During Underworld unleashed Dox actually managed to trick a favor out of Neron while not giving him his soul. Instead he sold the souls of others he would control if he was given what he wanted and then simply never even tried to take control.
Dox has also faced Eclipso in "heart of Darkness", plus Ion, Lady Styx, Synarr and his masters the "Nameless, as well as the new god's (including Shazam), X'Hal and defeated them. All are god's/abstract beings. That's hardly a feat exclusive to any single character.
👆 Who are the Nameless again?
Originally posted by Golgo13
👆 Who are the Nameless again?
The Namesless was the name given to what was formerly the demiurge. The force that the Presence created to cause creation. It was this entity that cause the creation of multiple universes. He grew to think of God as corrupt and sought to oppose him and was than smite like Morningstar. Synar is basically an aspect of the nameless forced to assume mortal form but still possessing devine powers and immortality.
Originally posted by beatboksThor never fought the Thorbuster armor. King Thor fought it. The guy who dented Cap's shield with a single blow, but took two issues to defeat the Thorbuster armor.
As I understand it ( from what I've seen in several forums and scans to support) Tony's Thor buster armor didn't even stand up to normal Thor, how could it then take King Thor. That just doesn't make sense to me. I'm basing these assessments on the fact that normal Thor seriously damaged his so called Thor buster armor. That being the case it could not possibly be as durable as something that can and has withstood forces above that.
Originally posted by beatboksI'm not unread with all things DC. I know what Infinite Crisis supposedly did and about the random interviews Geoff Johns gave. But what happens on-panel is more important than what people say (or intend). I read the post-Infinite Crisis depiction of Superboy's original meeting with the original Legion of Super-Heroes and it's different. I also know that the original PC Supergirl was an important part of pre-Crisis Legion history and she was never retconned back in after Infinite Crisis. So your blanket statements saying that pre-Crisis Legion history was reinstated and simply transplanted onto post-Crisis timeline "exactly" is inaccurate on its face.
Also re the pre COIE feats of LoSH they are completely valid. LoSH retained tehe exact same continuity post COIE they even changed it so that TT created a pocket Universe so Superboy ( who no longer existed ) was still their driving influence. There were some very minor changed in the mid 90's ( post the first runs of LEGION/REBELS) and again in 2001. In infinite Crisis their continuity was put back to pre crisis exactly. Every single story featuring Vril Dox came from a period when LoSH continuity WAS pre COIE.
And I mean, that's all Legion stuff and not even about Pulsar Stargrave. Is he really supposed to be a future Braniac like he was revealed to be in pre-Crisis continuity? C'mon now, let's stop pretending there isn't a question about pre-Crisis continuity.
Originally posted by beatboksI'll read about Silica and Starro for myself.
Starro used Silica's technopathy to ensure he had no resistance as his spors flooded through the universe in hyper speed. None of the war ships, weapons etc were functional to defend against his little stars. He controlled the people once he had possessed them but the feat of technopathically controlling all the devices across vast reaches of space was solely Silica after he gained possession.Any teach based hero is going to have all their weaponry under the control of silica. That's a given. When Lyrl Dox as an infant found his fathers program burried deep within his fathers system he made a simple change to it so that he was the patron of the enhanced charisma and not his father. The result was that anyone within the reach of a piece of technology that could be reached in the grid was under his control. Anyone who could see a computer screen, hear a signal from a device sending the auditory subliminal messages. Tony has a lot of those things in hiss armor. Multiple points where a subliminal message can get in. Seriously I don't see this as a stretch at all. Plus it's not like it's even something Tony would be prepared for with Prep. Dox's inner circle kept the idea that he controlled whole populations with brain washing very bloody secret. Even if he was how do you prepare yourself for something that acts only on teh subconscious mind.
So show scans of opponents fighting Vril Dox and him roflstomping them from the outset of the fight with his enhanced charisma (especially those who were tech-based). I feel like I've made this request before.
Originally posted by beatboksYou list all those characters as if it's supposed to mean something. That you would be so bold to say Vril Dox defeated each of them is disappointing. Has Vril Dox directly engaged an Abstract force of the universe and disrupted it like Stark has? If not, then Vril hasn't matched every level of feat Tony has performed. The original point of discussion.
Dox has also faced Eclipso and Neron at their peaks of power. During Underworld unleashed Dox actually managed to trick a favor out of Neron while not giving him his soul. Instead he sold the souls of others he would control if he was given what he wanted and then simply never even tried to take control.Dox has also faced Eclipso in "heart of Darkness", plus Ion, Lady Styx, Synarr and his masters the "Nameless, as well as the new god's (including Shazam), X'Hal and defeated them. All are god's/abstract beings. That's hardly a feat exclusive to any single character.