Originally posted by ODG
Re-assess then.The continuity has not been carried through on-panel as exactly as you'd like it to be. These flashbacks you refer to have shown vast differences starting from the very beginning, i.e., Superboy's first encounter with the Legion. Compare Adventure Comics #247 with Action Comics #858 and see for yourself. That Pulsar Stargrave's origin is different only serves to punctuate my point.
Pre-Crisis Supergirl joined the original Legion. Before CoIE, she had dozens of appearances in their comics throughout the original Adventure Comics, Superboy and the Legion of Super-Heroes, and Legion of Super-Heroes vol.2. titles. I meant exactly what I stated. The original PC Supergirl was an important part of pre-Crisis Legion history and she was never retconned back in after Infinite Crisis. Accordingly, your assertion that Legion continuity carried over "exactly" is inaccurate on its face.
I read the relevant issues of Omega Men and R.E.B.E.L.S. for myself. Your descriptions weren't accurate (and that's putting it nicely). I am sufficiently underwhelmed by Silica, and for good reason. She frankly doesn't merit anymore discussion.
Moving past that, you've still provided me with no examples of this "enhanced charisma" you described being put to practical use in a fight, much less an example of it being used to greater effect on a tech-oriented being. At this point, I don't feel the need to grant it any consideration.
1. Based on it being King Thor that he faced than obviously Dox's shields aren't as durable as Thor buster. As i said I was solely basing this on what I have been told in various forums and I was led to believe that normal Thor trashed the armor pretty well ( personally haven't read IM since the early 80's)
2. Of course it's note exactly, I only meant that the majority of the major arks have been referenced in various titles ( admittedly not all LoSH titles some were referenced in Valor, some in the brief Cosmic Boy sires etc. Like the story where Mordru and Glorith absorbed Infinity man was a part of the late issues of valor in the mid 90's, the time barrier thing with TT was in Cosmic boy mini, the JLA/JSA/ LoSH cross over with Mordru was in JSA etc). It's really inconsequential in relation to Pulsar Stargrave as he has as many post COIE feats of the same magnitude as his pre. For example he has easily taken down Valor, reduced Lobo to bone and mangled flesh ( which of course he got better from but even Superman's most powerful heat vision and DS Omega beams haven't), Knocked out Lady Quark with a blast, devastated Emerald Eye, taken down Captain Comet.
3. OK so if you've read the issues please tell me the inaccuracies i gave. In issue 1 as teh omega men approach legion space the Legion robots attack and are attacking and killing many civilians under Silica's control. In issue 3 it clearly states that Silica controls all of Legions robot forces with her technopathy. Forces that it states are spread across 83 inhabited worlds. In issue 5 ( somewhere in the first dozen pages) when Starro's minion was offering Dox the deal she clearly said that SIlica was the key, that possessing her gave the minion Dox's robot army and through that 80 odd worlds in the blink of an eye. How Starro wanted to take advantage of the mind that created that. His personal field has withstood a few dozen Thermonuclear warheads at point blank, blasts from PS, and matter manipulaotrs and such.
All I've stated all along is that Silica gives Dox Technopathy that spreads across space sectors ( I may have mentioned "galaxies" once because there was a reference once that Legion policed two and half galaxies). It was you reading between the lines asking about Starro and other things that I wasn't quite understanding why. Now it may just be that I'm not aware of it but if Tony has a technopathic feat greater than commanding technology on 83 separate worlds and would therefore be able to combat technopathy on that level when it's entire focus is only his tech, please present it. You may be unimpressed but i don't see an answer for that level of technopathy from someone who ( to the best of my knowledge) has only exhibited planet level technopathy maybe a little above.
4. I haven't provided it because I'm pretty sure I'd already stated before you asked that Dox has only used it twice on panel and it's been referenced a third time that he denied. I also stated somewhere back that when he went to use it again he was talked out of it by his closest friend the Durlan ( the one who would eventually be the time displaced R J Brande who funds LoSH). Both those times were NOT in battle but to quite a potential riot population and to motivate another to survive. The times it has been used for/in combat it was used by his father and son. Again I already stated this. When Brainiac first returned to Colu and tried to conquer it he found Dox's enhanced charisma program. he made him it's beneficiary instead and as the pilots of Colu's defense force attacked him and looked at their consoles they became his puppets. The second time was when his son Lyrl used it to take LEGION out from under him. When he first tried to get support from his client worlds and some aided they were taken over by Lyrl as they attacked also. I was pretty open in saying it isn't something he's used that way. Since however he has no real moral compass and no one here to talk him out of it I really don't see it as that much of a stretch to put it into play.
Dox has defeated superior intellects SO many times mostly due to his superior use of psychology. He has defeated Pulsar Stargrave about 5 times. PS is basically the combined knowledge of a culture over 5000 years. he has defeated his father Brainiac twice ( a 12th level intellect), plus his son Lyrl once. he has defeated Starro hwo had the combined mental processing power of 1000's of civilizations thanks to his spores. He has defeated galactic Empires ( and in fact the moment he wasn't in control of Legion any more when Starro took over those empires saw the chance to spread their borders once again). he has out maneuvered Darksied, the Guardians, and many others.
You also asked once about Dox personally engaging an abstract level being. Dox rarely personally engages anything. he usually tricks or manipulates someone else to do his fighting for him or tricks the adversary into just defeating themselves. He only actively engages someone when he can see gaining a benefit from it. Like when he engaged Lobo in a H2H battle so that once he beat him he had the complete adulation and devotion of every one of his troops and it strengthened their resolve for the coming mission. Very little of what Dox does is personal battle. He's much more likely to alter some of his Legion bots to be up to taking a fight to IM while he attacks in other ways.
Originally posted by beatboksGlad we agree.
1. Based on it being King Thor that he faced than obviously Dox's shields aren't as durable as Thor buster. As i said I was solely basing this on what I have been told in various forums and I was led to believe that normal Thor trashed the armor pretty well ( personally haven't read IM since the early 80's)
Originally posted by beatboksYou said, "exactly," not me. Glad we now agree it wasn't that at all. And your recitation of certain facts concerning Valor, Mordru and Glorith is both pointless and baffling. Mordru and Glorith never absorbed Infinite Man in pre-Crisis history. That was a strictly post-Crisis affair that in no way reinforces a tie to previous pre-Crisis tales. And that whole storyline actually occurred concurrently with the mid-90's Valor title, so how can it be "later" referenced in them? You've got your facts seriously mixed up here or you're just not being clear with what you write. And I'm beginning to seriously question whether that's intentional on your part. Like I said, I am not un-read in all things DC. I've got no issue with references to Pulsar Stargrave's current feats, just attempts to inelegantly shoehorn in questionable pre-Crisis history.
2. Of course it's note exactly, I only meant that the majority of the major arks have been referenced in various titles ( admittedly not all LoSH titles some were referenced in Valor, some in the brief Cosmic Boy sires etc. Like the story where Mordru and Glorith absorbed Infinity man was a part of the late issues of valor in the mid 90's, the time barrier thing with TT was in Cosmic boy mini, the JLA/JSA/ LoSH cross over with Mordru was in JSA etc). It's really inconsequential in relation to Pulsar Stargrave as he has as many post COIE feats of the same magnitude as his pre. For example he has easily taken down Valor, reduced Lobo to bone and mangled flesh ( which of course he got better from but even Superman's most powerful heat vision and DS Omega beams haven't), Knocked out Lady Quark with a blast, devastated Emerald Eye, taken down Captain Comet.
Originally posted by beatboksSilica only ever controlled Vril Dox's 10,000,000 police robots. Which were already placed on those 83 worlds who paid Vril Dox for them and who also completely relied on them for protection. And Silica herself was the AI interface for Vril Dox's control over them (and all his technology) in the first place. So Silica never was "technopathically controlling whole quadrants of space / entire galaxies at the same time." Silica never did control those robots along with "tecnopathically controlling any defense of worlds he sent his spors to."
3. OK so if you've read the issues please tell me the inaccuracies i gave. In issue 1 as teh omega men approach legion space the Legion robots attack and are attacking and killing many civilians under Silica's control. In issue 3 it clearly states that Silica controls all of Legions robot forces with her technopathy. Forces that it states are spread across 83 inhabited worlds. In issue 5 ( somewhere in the first dozen pages) when Starro's minion was offering Dox the deal she clearly said that SIlica was the key, that possessing her gave the minion Dox's robot army and through that 80 odd worlds in the blink of an eye. How Starro wanted to take advantage of the mind that created that. His personal field has withstood a few dozen Thermonuclear warheads at point blank, blasts from PS, and matter manipulaotrs and such.
Silica was essentially Tony's J.A.R.V.I.S. If Mandarin took over the J.A.R.V.I.S. AI with a computer virus and turned hundreds of Iron Man armors against the U.S. in an ambush, it would be a complete misrepresentation to suggest that "J.A.R.VI.S. technopathically controlled entire continents and their defense systems." And that's pretty much exactly what you did for pages in this thread.
Originally posted by beatboksYour waffling with Starro in your synopses (ultimately inconsequential) made me suspect; that is all. And it was apparently for good reason. I am only unimpressed by the blatant misrepresentations you've heaped onto the thread about Silica. She merits no consideration whatsoever beyond noting that with a single starfish, she single-handedly ended up nearly unraveling everything Vril Dox accomplished. Which is why Vril destroyed her despite having freed her from Starro's influence.
All I've stated all along is that Silica gives Dox Technopathy that spreads across space sectors ( I may have mentioned "galaxies" once because there was a reference once that Legion policed two and half galaxies). It was you reading between the lines asking about Starro and other things that I wasn't quite understanding why. Now it may just be that I'm not aware of it but if Tony has a technopathic feat greater than commanding technology on 83 separate worlds and would therefore be able to combat technopathy on that level when it's entire focus is only his tech, please present it. You may be unimpressed but i don't see an answer for that level of technopathy from someone who ( to the best of my knowledge) has only exhibited planet level technopathy maybe a little above.
Originally posted by beatboksSo Vril Dox never roflstomped competent opponents from the outset of the fight with his enhanced charisma (especially those who were tech-based). Ever. Good to know.
4. I haven't provided it because I'm pretty sure I'd already stated before you asked that Dox has only used it twice on panel and it's been referenced a third time that he denied. I also stated somewhere back that when he went to use it again he was talked out of it by his closest friend the Durlan ( the one who would eventually be the time displaced R J Brande who funds LoSH). Both those times were NOT in battle but to quite a potential riot population and to motivate another to survive. The times it has been used for/in combat it was used by his father and son. Again I already stated this. When Brainiac first returned to Colu and tried to conquer it he found Dox's enhanced charisma program. he made him it's beneficiary instead and as the pilots of Colu's defense force attacked him and looked at their consoles they became his puppets. The second time was when his son Lyrl used it to take LEGION out from under him. When he first tried to get support from his client worlds and some aided they were taken over by Lyrl as they attacked also. I was pretty open in saying it isn't something he's used that way. Since however he has no real moral compass and no one here to talk him out of it I really don't see it as that much of a stretch to put it into play.
Originally posted by beatboksI asked whether Vril Dox ever managed to directly engage an Abstract force because you declared that he matched all the best feats Tony has ever had. On page 1. Obviously, Vril hasn't or you would have said so by now. I'll thank you to not move the goalposts beyond that.
Dox has defeated superior intellects SO many times mostly due to his superior use of psychology. He has defeated Pulsar Stargrave about 5 times. PS is basically the combined knowledge of a culture over 5000 years. he has defeated his father Brainiac twice ( a 12th level intellect), plus his son Lyrl once. he has defeated Starro hwo had the combined mental processing power of 1000's of civilizations thanks to his spores. He has defeated galactic Empires ( and in fact the moment he wasn't in control of Legion any more when Starro took over those empires saw the chance to spread their borders once again). he has out maneuvered Darksied, the Guardians, and many others.You also asked once about Dox personally engaging an abstract level being. Dox rarely personally engages anything. he usually tricks or manipulates someone else to do his fighting for him or tricks the adversary into just defeating themselves. He only actively engages someone when he can see gaining a benefit from it. Like when he engaged Lobo in a H2H battle so that once he beat him he had the complete adulation and devotion of every one of his troops and it strengthened their resolve for the coming mission. Very little of what Dox does is personal battle. He's much more likely to alter some of his Legion bots to be up to taking a fight to IM while he attacks in other ways.
After reading the thread for an hour it seems that Vril is out of Stark's weight class.
Also the feat of Stark blowing up the Phoenix force is out of context. Both Stark and Pym made the gun, and the Phoenix Force is the cosmic jobber of Marvel, even Xorn was able to smash it into a million pieces with an EMP so it's not that impressive.
The only thing that Vril brings to the table here is his forcefield. I don't really understand why Silica's even in the discussion to begin with - the whole REBELS series was pretty clearly treating her as a separate being, with her own body and mind. Maybe a creation and tool of Dox's, but her own entity and not exactly 'standard equipment'.