Lord Vitiate runs the gauntlet.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Intended point is that many would have sided with Din in a debate if these two hadn't clashed for real. Reason: Din have feats.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Or weren't as strong as Sith Emperor?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Concession accepted.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Well, Revan matched her power. So the point stands.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Satele disintegrated a rocky cliff in its entirety.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Malgus and Revan have disintegrated concrete structures. Rock and concrete are very durable materials; much more so then biological bodies. As I stated before, focus on nature of power.

He stopped once to conjure a Force wave that all but atomized the bodies of six Maladians.

In this case, it's not a different power - a Force wave is a telekinetic power. Plagueis' Force wave was just that good.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
When a point of yours is beaten, your response is to discredit the counterargument. When you construct a logical point, it is OK! but when I do the same then suddenly I am overrating the characters that I am debating for? Concede...

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You have a better explanation for the Temple falling apart?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Whatever. The power unleashed by him was considerable enough to do significant structural damage and liquidity a defenseless individual.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Why shouldn't I highlight Sith Emperor's capabilities? Because they discredit your lowballing tactics?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You are getting desperate it seems.

You are getting desperate it seems.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Why didn't Palpatine use his telekinetic abilities to overwhelm him?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
As per holistic view of recent updates in the mythos, that accolade looses its value.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Quinlan Vos isn't an expert swordsman; not even close. Therefore, your assumption is baseless. Heck, Fisto performed better then him against Sidious and he lost to Ventress.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Don't fret too much over accolades awarded to characters in ROTS novel. They represent internal viewpoints.

Some revelation for you:

THOUGH THE EPISODE III adult novelization by Matthew Stover follows the Episodes I and II precedent of adding new scenes, its greatest additions to the screenplay are [B]extensive internal viewpoints exploring the psychological underpinnings to character actions. (SW: TERC, 2012) [/B]

I will respond to your BS soon.

lol

Is it weird that whenever Intrepid posts I sort of picture a mischievous little schoolgirl who's keeping terrible secrets from all of us...

Eh...

My only secret is that I am not from Austrailia. 😉

But the mischievous little schoolgirl part was accurate right?

That wasn't supposed to be a secret but yeah.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
As are you. Neither of us have proof for our points, so why did you bring it up?

You brought the "most powerful Sith Lord ever" argument in to this debate, and I reminded you that Sidious is no longer exclusive with this accolade and it remains to be seen how Sidious will be positioned/promoted in the light of updated lore which continues to expand. For now, it would be wise for you to put this argument to rest.

Regardless, you just weakened the credibility of your original argument with this revelation:

Plagueis understood, too, that there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn't master through an effort of will. If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface. (SW: Plagueis)

"What greater weapon is there than to turn an enemy to your cause? To use their own knowledge against them?" (Bastila Shan)

Originally posted by Intrepid37
More durable than twelve armored maladians?

An instant later, the little astromech came tumbling down the stairs and bounced across the floor as if he'd been shot from a cannon. He landed in the corner on his back, his wheels still spinning. (SWTOR: Revan)

T3-M4 wasn't damaged...

A human would have ended with broken bones in T3-M4's place, armor or not...

Originally posted by Intrepid37
No. It's not my job to prove Vitiate is fast, it's yours and so far you haven't done a very good job at it.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Others Plagueis felled with his hands by snapping necks and putting his fists through armored torsos.

In blinding motion his hands and feet smashed skulls and windpipes.

I meant with a lightsaber.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Plagueis understood, too, that there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn't master through an effort of will. If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
So where are we getting with this?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Your double standards are annoying.

My point is that EXPERT/SUPERB swordsmen existed during TOR era also; why are you arguing against this? Your double-standards are actually annoying.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
He was lucky Sidious faked the part of being too weak, otherwise he'd eat his own saber.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Proves nothing.

Proves nothing.

ROTS movie + SWTCE + SWTERC versus ROTS novel

NOTE: Sources on the left favor Mace.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
😐

Mace was forced back on the defensive the whole time until he gained an advantage he wouldn't gain in a rematch. His feat is really no better than Dooku holding his own against Yoda.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
His feat is really no better than Dooku holding his own against Yoda.

Sidious was so skilled that he outdueled both Maul and Opress simultaneously. In contrast, Dooku couldn't outduel Opress and Ventress simultaneously. Replace Ventress with Maul and the brothers would have overwhelmed Dooku. Mace outdueled Sidious when 3 other Jedi Masters couldn't and even the brothers couldn't. Your brain needs a CT scan.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
The Complete Visual Dictionary was re-released in September 2012 and includes this quote:

Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
No problem. You concede the point?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I know what he's capable of and he's not capable of taking down Dooku more times than not.

He outclassed Dooku in this footage alone: http://www.swtor.com/info/media/trailers/return

Originally posted by Intrepid37
On Tatooine, The Clone Wars: The Visual Guide implies Dooku brought up the holocron to ''gain an advantage'' implying his force powers did nothing.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Ventress brought down stones from a ceiling,

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Kenobi stalemated Pre-Suit Vader in their force push.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
This contradits nothing. Just because neither the novel nor movie says it doesn't mean other sources can; I have cited one that does, concede and move on.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Prove the Jedi were on Dooku's level.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Only then can we understand the extraordinary combat moves of Yoda, perhaps the greatest lightsaber master the Jedi Order has ever seen.

The key word is "perhaps" in that statement.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
There's really no shame in that.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Nick Gillard confirmed Kenobi was a level 8, Anakin and Mace were level 9's. Guess what, Dooku is an equal to Mace.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Thanks for proving how good Anakin is.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Dooku disarmed Savage twice.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Not really. Dooku holding his own for a good 30 seconds against perhaps the best lightsaber duelist the Order ever had seen is well above Nyriss.

Outdueling too EXPERT duelists > Dooku lasting 30 seconds against one EXPERT duelist

SCOURGE WAS AN EXPERT SWORDSMAN; at the Academy even the instructors had been reluctant to face him in the training ring. When the dark side flowed through him, his blade was more than a weapon. It became an extension of his will. (SWTOR: Revan)

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

lol

Best gif ever.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Have you been sleeping or you suffer from short-term memory loss?

You brought the "most powerful Sith Lord ever" argument in to this debate, and I reminded you that Sidious is no longer exclusive with this accolade and it remains to be seen how Sidious will be positioned/promoted in the light of updated lore which continues to expand. For now, it would be wise for you to put this argument to rest.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Too bad! This book: http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-The-Republic-Encyclopedia/dp/0756698391 - have been released a month later.

Until Vitiate has received a quote explicitly stating he is more powerful than Sidious the quote stands.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Regardless, you just weakened the credibility of your original argument with this revelation:

Plagueis understood, too, that there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn't master through an effort of will. If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface. (SW: Plagueis)

"What greater weapon is there than to turn an enemy to your cause? [B]To use their own knowledge against them?" (Bastila Shan) [/B]

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I don't know but T3-M4 was heavily customized (as per kOTOR-CG) and very durable:

An instant later, the little astromech came tumbling down the stairs and bounced across the floor as if he'd been shot from a cannon. He landed in the corner on his back, his wheels still spinning. (SWTOR: Revan)

T3-M4 wasn't damaged...

A human would have ended with broken bones in T3-M4's place, armor or not...

Besides, your point about T3 survivng stuff and huehue?

But the Maladians were far from run-of-the-mill murderers. Members of the cult had killed and wounded Jedi, and in response to confronting Force powers, they didn't shrink or flee but simply changed tactics, moving with astounding agility to surround Plagueis and wait for openings.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Nice escape attempt! It is your job to prove that Anakin is going to blitz Vitiate because you made this claim in the first place. My contention is that Force powers can be unleashed instantly.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Whether Plagueis is a physical brute and/or a master swordsman is not going to give him edge over Vitiate who is known to overwhelm foes with similar advantages over him with his power in the Force. Use your brain, please.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Interesting information; this nullifies your attempts to belittle Plagueis against Sidious as well.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You tell me...

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
🙄

My point is that EXPERT/SUPERB swordsmen existed during TOR era also; why are you arguing against this? Your double-standards are actually annoying.

All of this is as good as being an EXPERT swordsman, yet Jedi/Sith of their caliber is nothing in comparison to the real top tiers such as Dooku.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Speculation continues at your end...

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Your responses prove that you are a stubborn jerk. Canonical sources offer conflicting accounts of Mace's confrontation with Sidious; the account demonstrated in the movie is the one with wider acceptance within Star Wars (canon) literature.

ROTS movie + SWTCE + SWTERC [B]versus ROTS novel

NOTE: Sources on the left favor Mace. [/B]

George Lucas explicitly says that Sidious' weakness was fake. The novelization heavily implies Mace couldn't hold on anymore, and in that moment he fakes weakness.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Giving space is not necessarily a sign of being outclassed but rather a tactic employed to avoid getting injured or killed specially in a restricted setting. If Sidious had forced Mace to his knees then you would have a point but the opposite happened. In the movie, Mace disarmed Sidious by landing a boot on him.

In the inner recesses of his private office, the Jedi confronted the Chancellor. Palpatine produced a lightsaber hidden in his sleeve and let the dark side flow through him. It granted him unnatural dexterity and speed—enough to quickly kill three Jedi Masters and force the mighty Mace Windu back.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
"What did you say?" (Anakin Skywalker)

Sidious was so skilled that he outdueled both Maul and Opress simultaneously. In contrast, Dooku couldn't outduel Opress and Ventress simultaneously.
Replace Ventress with Maul and the brothers would have overwhelmed Dooku. Mace outdueled Sidious when 3 other Jedi Masters couldn't and even the brothers couldn't. Your brain needs a CT scan.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I accept that Yoda > Dooku

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What a joke you really are.

He outclassed Dooku in this footage alone: http://www.swtor.com/info/media/trailers/return

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I don't understand?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Link?

2:30

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Pre-Suit Vader have better showings with the Force then Dooku?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4y54mkVkBc0

2:40. Consider Dooku's absolute ragdolling of Kenobi, his powers are immense.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Anakin was vulnerable when Obi-Wan reached higher ground. Their is no sign or indication of any other vulnerability.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I am not in the mood to start another lengthy debate with you! I will shorten the argument: Their combined might would be significantly greater then that of (single) Dooku's so your argument is moot.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He is better duelist then even Luke?

The key word is "perhaps" in that statement.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
No! But it is shameful that he couldn't overcome other less capable duelists then Yoda.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Friendly sparring contests prove nothing.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Obi-Wan is in the same boat, did you forget? Obi-Wan have dueled the brothers and survived.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is prior to Dooku's confrontation with both Opress and Ventress or after?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Baseless!

Outdueling too EXPERT duelists > Dooku lasting 30 seconds against one EXPERT duelist

SCOURGE WAS AN EXPERT SWORDSMAN; at the Academy even the instructors had been reluctant to face him in the training ring. When the dark side flowed through him, his blade was more than a weapon. It became an extension of his will. (SWTOR: Revan)

Originally posted by Intrepid37
He got played, yeah, but I have proved he went for the kill. Done deal.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Once again, it is not my job to prove his speed, it's yours.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I assume that you think of me as a Sidious fanboy, Dooku fanboy, Plagueis fanboy, Yoda fanboy and Anakin fanboy, right?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
No.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
As would I, but your point is moot because they have clashed.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Wait, you think Zannah can take Plagueis? 😂

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I don't remember the original point but Revan hasn't displayed lightning of that calibier.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It didn't disintegrate and it was after she absorbed saber.

Their were other cliffs (or it was a belt) in the region but she destroyed the rocky formation she hit.

What is disintegration?

Break up into parts, typically as the result of impact or decay. (Google)

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Malgus and Revan have never disintegrated.

At the far end of the hall, another half a dozen of the Imperial Guard rounded the corner. Revan reached out with the Force and ripped the vaulted stone archway in the ceiling above them free from its setting. A shower of dust and debris rained down on the reinforcements, sending them into temporary retreat. (SWTOR: Revan)

Anger refilled him, overcame him. A shout of hate, raw and jagged, burst from his throat. Power went with it, shattering a nearby column and sending a rain of stone shards through the room. (SWTOR: Deceived)

Originally posted by Intrepid37
As for Plagueis' feat, re-read the text:

He stopped once to conjure a Force wave that all but atomized the bodies of six Maladians.

In this case, it's not a different power - a Force wave is a telekinetic power. Plagueis' Force wave was just that good.

The Force wave that Revan conjured which send Vitiate packing may have atomized defenseless humans in the latter's place. Similarly, the Force wave that Bane conjured would also have atomized defenseless individuals.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
There's nothing to concede.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It's not my job to prove it. You said he collapsed it, you prove it.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It pales in comparison to other Force waves.

The feat is one of the greatest display of power in the mythos.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
You can't defend it because it's scripted so stop it.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Get your head out of your ass and prove it.

Read this:

It remains a mystery how the Emperor learned of the council's treachery. He allowed their plan to play out, but when they gathered to confront the Emperor, his punishment was swift and devastating. Eleven members of the Dark Council died in a sudden flash on the steps of the Citadel. (SWTORE, Page 157)

Originally posted by Intrepid37
He did. Had Mace not redirected its path he'd have crashed into a wall.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It doesn't. Considering that there are now powerful beings pre-PT it makes it even more impressive.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
He's still among the greatest bladesbeings in the history of the Order.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Point?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Anakin's confrontation with Dooku on Naboo affirms that the latter didn't stood a chance against the former in a martial clash. However, had Dooku not followed the plan, he had a good chance at defeating Anakin or escaping alive.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Nice escape attempt! It is your job to prove that Anakin is going to blitz Vitiate because you made this claim in the first place. My contention is that Force powers can be unleashed instantly.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Conclusion: You are a [B]PT fanboy. [/B]

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Nice attempt to dodge an argument. The message that I am tryingto convey to you is that don't fully rely upon feats in debates; their are additional ways to evaluate a character in the context of power and skill.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Point is that she can atomize human bodies too so Plagueis managing to atomize 6 humans simultaneously isn't such a big deal as you are making it out to be. Other powerful characters can accomplish the same with their powers.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Revan is a practitioner of both Jedi and Sith powers. He is unorthodox.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It didn't disintegrate?

Their were other cliffs (or it was a belt) in the region but she destroyed the rocky formation she hit.

[B]What is disintegration?

Break up into parts, typically as the result of impact or decay. (Google) [/B]

And she gained that power after she absorbed his lightsaber.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
They have disintegrated concrete/stone:

At the far end of the hall, another half a dozen of the Imperial Guard rounded the corner. Revan reached out with the Force and ripped the vaulted stone archway in the ceiling above them free from its setting. [B]A shower of dust and debris rained down on the reinforcements, sending them into temporary retreat. (SWTOR: Revan) [/B]

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Anger refilled him, overcame him. A shout of hate, raw and jagged, burst from his throat. Power went with it, shattering a nearby column and sending a rain of stone shards through the room. (SWTOR: Deceived)

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Ok! However, other powerful individuals could be just as potent with their telekinetic abilities.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The Force wave that Revan conjured which send Vitiate packing may have atomized defenseless humans in the latter's place. Similarly, the Force wave that Bane conjured would also have atomized defenseless individuals.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
When Revan confronted Vitiate; the latter continued to (gradually) up his game until he beat the former. As far as the telekinetic abilities are concerned, neither Revan and nor Vitiate wanted to or had time to attempt to collapse the structure around them because they were; (1) fighting in it; (2) and wouldn't give each other sufficient time to attempt to bring down the structure.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You tell me why the Dark Temple fell apart then since you are denying my explanation.

2:54, Temple is still there.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
😘

The feat is one of the greatest display of power in the mythos.

Also, he gathered power when Kas'im was talking, it's not something he can do in a normal fight against other opponents because they won't stand and talk mid-fight.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
My point is that Vitiate packs devastating powers and depending upon your actions, he uses them.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What the hell you are babbling about? I have already proved that individuals as strong and/or stronger then Yoda have served Vitiate. It makes sense to point out that Vitiate is much stronger then PT/OT era characters.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
So this bodes well for Mace actually...

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
His performance doesn't warrant him that accolade anymore. He might be among the best Jedi but he is certainly not "an even greater Sith Lord." This particular phrase is hyperbolic and the latest updates in the lore make it moot.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Their are likely to many more "among the" like him in the Order's 25000 year long history. And their can be great variation in the skill department even the "among the" category; Mace >>>> Kolar

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
ROTS novel has been written in a unique fashion; It seems like someone within the Universe is describing the events. Keyword: "Internal Viewpoint."

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Nothing needs to be put to rest. I really don't give three shits if the TOR Encyclopedia was released a month later. You are not George Lucas nor are you Leland Chee so you have no authority to say what's been retconned and what has not.

Also, any (educated) person can figure out a retcon; their is no need to explicitly point it out. Why do you think that "updated" versions of books are often released?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Until Vitiate has received a quote explicitly stating he is more powerful than Sidious the quote stands.

Also, the source you cited doesn't features TOR era lore. If it does then show me proof.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I didn't?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
T3 is more durabke than one armored maladian, but twelve? Don't think so.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Besides, your point about T3 survivng stuff and huehue?

But the Maladians were far from run-of-the-mill murderers. Members of the cult had killed and wounded Jedi, and in response to confronting Force powers, they didn't shrink or flee but simply changed tactics, moving with astounding agility to surround Plagueis and wait for openings.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I never claimed Anakin is going to blitz Maul, just that he is far faster than ''instantly''.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Good for him, especially since Plagueis has force showings above that of Vitiate's.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Explain.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I can't even remember the original point.

To refresh your memory: HoT outdueled some EXPERT swordsmen.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I'm not arguing against it: but Agen Kolar being ''among the greatest bladesbeings the Order had ever produced'', Qui-Gon was ''one of the most capable swordsmen in the Order'', Kit Fisto was ''one of the best in the order'', Saesee Tiin was a ''celebrated swordsman''.

All of this is as good as being an EXPERT swordsman, yet Jedi/Sith of their caliber is nothing in comparison to the real top tiers such as Dooku.

HoT is also a real top-tier individual; in-fact, he subdued an opponent who have killed over a 1000 Jedi and Sith in single combat. This accomplishment alone puts HoT on par with perhaps Luke or possibly better?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Backed up with canon proof?

I'm a stubborn jerk? Get your head out of your ass and try to understand what you post yourself.

George Lucas explicitly says that Sidious' weakness was fake. The novelization heavily implies Mace couldn't hold on anymore, and in that moment he fakes weakness.

"Okay, well, this sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber. And it always was that Anakin cut the lightsaber out of his hand. [Color=Blue]But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later, 'cause this is, it moved the point where Anakin turns down to this moment right here, and you can see now, that it's very clear that he's, he, he wants him to go on trial so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers."[/Blue]

Mace did (legitimately) got the upperhand in this duel and was in the position to kill Palpatine; this doesn't means that Sidious lost his power, but GL did not ruled out the possibility of him (Sidious) getting killed. As per the movie based depiction, the Sith Lord knew that he could die so he used the opportunity provided to him-with arrival of Anakin-to his advantage and did his best to manipulate Anakin to help him. In-fact, Sidious had already planted the seeds of this manipulation prior to his encounter with Mace so Anakin's timely arrival was a blessing for him.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
He wasn't giving ground, that's ridiculous. He was forced back:

In the inner recesses of his private office, the Jedi confronted the Chancellor. Palpatine produced a lightsaber hidden in his sleeve and let the dark side flow through him. It granted him unnatural dexterity and speed—enough to quickly kill three Jedi Masters and force the mighty Mace Windu back.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
This is really dumb. Mace is an equal to Dooku, nothing more. I have proven that Mace was forced back and won due to exploiting Anakin as a Shatterpoint. Unless Anakin's fear is there to help Mace, guess what, he's going down, as would Dooku.

And no! Mace (eventually) surpassed Dooku in skill and power.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
And you accept that Dooku never ''outwitted'' Yoda and that Sidious fighting evenly with Yoda means something? Good to see.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
This is pretty dumb. In this footage Malgus shows no display of force power and Kao is a far cry off Yoda. Try again.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Dooku overwhelming Anakin with the force on Tatooine didn't help him as he was put on his ass twice.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShpFLOmjAe8

2:30

I have advised you before to not rely upon contradictory sources to support your arguments because they generate confusion and nothing else.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
No, but his one showing is pretty good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4y54mkVkBc0

2:40. Consider Dooku's absolute ragdolling of Kenobi, his powers are immense.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Prove it.

YouTube video

You know what happens next, right?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Prove it.

If you are not willing to use your brain, do not expect me to expand much on my points for you.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Obviously prior to Luke.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Who has he not overcome?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Anakin is a very good fighter. He has fought as an equal with Mace who, at the time of Attack of the Clones was second to only Yoda.

This is from GL, I believe:

"You have to be either Yoda or Mace to compete with Sidious"

In-fact differentiation was made clear in the ROTS movie; Yoda forbade Obi-Wan to confront Sidious because the Sith Master was too strong for him. Obi-Wan proved to be a match for the (fallen) Anakin and they had a long duel.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Gillard's statement had nothing to do with sparring.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Of course Dooku has a good chance in defeating Anakin. He has a good chance against anyone from the era that is not Yoda and Sidious. Doesn't change the fact that Anakin has had Dooku on the defensive in each of their fights and has always overcome his force powers.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I never claimed Anakin is going to blitz Maul, just that he is far faster than ''instantly''.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Let me guess, everyone that disagrees with you is a PT fanboy?

For example: you want me to prove that a Jedi Strike Team (of four of the "strongest" Jedi of the Order) outclasses a single Count Dooku in might. Your idiocy is endless.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Statements?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
She did it as a child and as a mistake and have never replicated such power.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Sure thing.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
She blasted Malgus with enough power that he went through the cliff. Not disintegration.

And she gained that power after she absorbed his lightsaber.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Not disintegration. He ripped a stone out of the ceiling which caused dust and debris to fall down. That's like saying Ventress disintegrated the ceiling.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Force scream. Nice try though.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I don't give a flying **** about what they possibly can do. We could say Dooku could lift double as many stones as he did, we could say DoE Bane can disintegrate without his orbalisks, whatever

Originally posted by Intrepid37
No proof.

I didn't mean for Vitiate to collapse the structure, just to his immense powers that are capable of doing that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpnJeYVvhps

2:54, Temple is still there.

This is the polished build:

YouTube video

Once the Temple begins to fall apart, the Jedi Knight escapes but the screen goes temporarily blank and when it returns, we get to see the Jedi Knight inside his ship.

My original assertion is that Vitiate have demonstrated the capability to collapse buildings with his power if he wants to. Whether he chooses to fully destroy the Dark Temple or not remains to be seen but he has the capability which is important. This is what the polished version of the game makes apparent.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
A Force wave powerful enough to shatter bones is one of the greatest displays in the mythos? 😂

Also, he gathered power when Kas'im was talking, it's not something he can do in a normal fight against other opponents because they won't stand and talk mid-fight.

The power unleashed by Bane collapsed a building. Kas'im certainly tolerated the power (since he isn't a defenseless Maladin) but he couldn't prevent tons of rock to crush him beneath. The whole event is one of the greatest display of power in the whole mythos.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Am I supposed to be somewhat impressed?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
No. Yoda at this point is the strongest Jedi to ever live and disarmed the strongest Sith to ever live.
Read this:

You are not just a fanboy but a deluded one who cannot understand the importance of "creative liberties" and their impact on older content during expansion process.

Listen you stupid fanboy; TOR era lore have introduced some characters that (as per the available descriptions and hints) seem to be stronger then any incarnation of Yoda and even Sidous up till OT part. It remains to be seen how Yoda and Sidious will be revaluated on the basis of this update in the Star Wars mythos. The sources which you cling to for arguments predate SWTOR. Therefore, caution is advised until new sources come up and clarify the situation.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
No?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It's not hyperbolic nor has it been retconned. Stop acting like you're have authority to say things like that.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I don't care about your speculation. He was given the quote and it's goddamn good hype. But let me guess, Vitiate would beat Kolar in a lightsaberduel.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It's canon bud.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
George Lucas no longer owns Star Wars mythos. This science fiction work is now fully open to "creative liberties" aspect.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Also, any (educated) person can figure out a retcon; their is no need to explicitly point it out. Why do you think that "updated" versions of books are often released?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
When Sidious was promoted with "the most powerful Sith Lord" accolade; Vitiate wasn't invented. The authors, who previously promoted Sidious with the aforementioned accolade, would now have to revaluate their previous decision in the light of the expanded lore; Sidious may or may not retain his accolade in the light of the expanded lore. And even if he does so, it doesn't makes much difference because his position is not going to discredit Vitiate's talents and accomplishments and neither it would affirm that Vitiate cannot hurt or kill Sidious in single combat (Sidious actually have fallen to less powerful foes). You can also learn from the example of Abeloth; despite being considerably stronger then Luke, she (or [B]IT) lost to him in several battles. So power dynamics and their effectiveness in the mythos aren't so black and white. [/B]

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Plagueis still have the accolade.

Sidious himself implies he surpassed Plagueis:

Sidious paused, then, in derision, added, "Plagueis the Wise, who in his time truly was, except at the end, trusting that the Rule of Two had been superseded, and failed to realize that he would not be excused from it. Plagueis the Wise, who forged the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy has ever known, and yet who forgot to leave a place for himself; whose pride never allowed him to question that he would no longer be needed."

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The power was unleashed in the form of a [B]wave. It would affect 1 maladin in the same way as it would 12 maladins. However, its effectiveness against a relatively more durable droid may not be the same because durability would make the difference. [/B]

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This doesn't disproves my point; Maladins were vulnerable to Force powers and a human will definitely get hurt by falling from stairs and/or being hurled at the wall. Their are many examples in Star Wars that support my assertion.

Also, wasn't Vitiate at a nexus at the time he disintegrated T3?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You mean Vitiate? Well, instantly may not be an ideal choice of word but Force powers can be unleashed at such a speed that it is not easy to evade them. Some powers cannot be evaded simply by the way.

If he can kill Ahsoka in an instant that's fine but that is more than enough time for Anakin to stab Vitiate to death.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Force showings above Vitiate? He haven't defeated a Jedi Strike Team (of very powerful Jedi) in single combat. No Sith Lord have demonstrated this level of capability in single combat yet.

Faster? Plagueis.
Stronger? Plagueis.
Better telekinetic showings? Plagueis.
More skilled with a lightsaber? Plagueis.
More powerful lightning? Vitiate.

And for the record, Plagueis is more powerful than Vitiate as per the backcover.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This indicates that you are arguing for the sake of argument and wasting my time and effort.

To refresh your memory: HoT outdueled some EXPERT swordsmen.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I have addressed this part already.

HoT is also a real top-tier individual; in-fact, he subdued an opponent who have killed over a 1000 Jedi and Sith in single combat. This accomplishment alone puts HoT on par with perhaps Luke or possibly better?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Mace did (legitimately) got the upperhand in this duel and was in the position to kill Palpatine; this doesn't means that Sidious lost his power, but GL did not ruled out the possibility of him (Sidious) getting killed. As per the movie based depiction, the Sith Lord knew that he could die so he used the opportunity provided to him-with arrival of Anakin-to his advantage and did his best to manipulate Anakin to help him. In-fact, Sidious had already planted the seeds of this manipulation prior to his encounter with Mace so Anakin's timely arrival was a blessing for him.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What you are not realizing is the fact that Mace sank in to Vaapad and then began to match Sidious's dueling abilities. When no one could gain the upperhand, Mace then put his another talent to use to gain the upperhand; shatterpoint. He legitimately outdueled Sidious because he saw an opening via shatterpoint and exploited it.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You need to recheck the novel; Mace experienced two shatterpoints during the fight; the first one granted him the edge he needed to disarm Palpatine and the second one was Anakin whom he failed to make his ally.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And no! Mace (eventually) surpassed Dooku in skill and power.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
If Yoda hadn't played nice, he would have subdued Dooku.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And Sidious will eliminate Dooku relatively faster.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You suck at analyzing things; Malgus tolerated everything thrown at him during much of the duel and when he eventually used his emotions to fuel his power, he became an unstoppable force and then proceeded to slay the significantly skilled and experienced Jedi Master. Yoda is not the focus here; Dooku is, and he is outclassed by Malgus.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I have seen the fight and I maintain that Dooku's limitations do not apply to someone as powerful in the dark side as Vitiate is. The latter will annihilate Anakin.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I don't use this particular source for debates because it has (immensely) exaggerated the power and skill of all PT era Force-users and these depictions are contradictory to the depictions of the same characters in the higher-budget (more realistic) mediums. If PT era Force-users packed such power and skill on average, they would have cleared that arena in Geonosis with ease since they numbered 200 in that fight. Mace was in that arena too and I didn't see him destroying armies with his powers in the movie. heck, even Yoda didn't demonstrate such capability in the more realistic variant of the Clone Wars cartoons (For example: watch the Ambush episode).

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I have advised you before to not rely upon contradictory sources to support your arguments because they generate confusion and nothing else.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
IOf-course! I don't expect Anakin to be poor in the use of the Force, but he was mediocre in the context of Force mastery during his tenure as a Jedi since he honed his talents like a Jedi Knight (warrior type) rather then like a Jedi Consular or even a Jedi Knight (Sentinel type). Jedi Consulars are expected to be formidable in the use of the Force but Jedi Knights are expected to be formidable in the use of the blade. Of-course, this doesn't means that a Jedi Knight cannot become a powerful Force-user with time or acquire some Jedi Consular like talents but Anakin hadn't reached this point prior to getting struck down by Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This;

YouTube video

You know what happens next, right?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
🙄

If you are not willing to use your brain, do not expect me to expand much on my points for you.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Then why did you cited that quote? You think that Yoda cannot be matched in skill by an ancient? Are you insecure about this or something?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He slowly but surely lost his edge over some of his greatest opponents in martial aspects. He had is Force mastery to aid him during difficult situations. He is powerful and a master swordsman but he is not such a big deal that some of his fans make him out to be. Dooku still have his limitations; I like this character but PT/OT lore fans unnecessarily exaggerate him and this forces me to call a spade a spade. I don't need lectures on Dooku's skill because the character is not alien to me and I can observe his performances.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Look! Anakin was becoming stronger with passage of time but he was not in the league of Mace, Yoda and Sidious.

This is from GL, I believe:

"You have to be either Yoda or Mace to compete with Sidious"

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And who cares about Gillard's rankings when we have so much canonical material to consider?

After reading the last of your post, I'm not really interested in this discussion not to mention it's horribly off-topic. The original point was that Anakin could beat Vitiate because he has been able to shrug off Dooku's force attacks which are as good as Vitiate's considering Vitiate's best feat was done on a nexus. I have proven that Dooku went for the kill each and every time they fought and the only time he has subdued Anakin was with help. Nothing suggests Vitiate can subdue Anakin without the aid of a nexus.

Other points

-Atomizing twelve armored maladians while injured>>disintegrating a droid on a nexus.

-Force screams are, to my knowledge at least, not useable in combat.

-Mace beat Sidious with circumstances in his favor.

-Kenobi isn't a mediocre telekinetic.

-Sidious is still the most powerful Sith Lord to ever exist.

-Dooku is an equal to Mace.

Having only 15 minutes to edit sucks.