"EXPERT SWORDSMAN" can range from beings who are slow enough to be shot by a bounty hunter and having difficulty with 3 droids per wave ( Scourge in the Revan book ), to beings who can produce after images for even a very quick force sensitive. How are any of those "expert swordsman" comparable to even Maul, who's trained by the most powerful Sith Lord ever.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
LeGeND, considering how long it took you to respond, don't expect me to follow up on this. I'm just gonna address what I want to.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
About Luminara Unduli:Not only were her lightsaber skills superb, but she had also
trained herself to become so incredibly flexible that she could easily twist to evade almost any attack that she did not block with her green lightsaber.Bulq:
Sora Bulq was one of the greatest lightsaber instructors the Jedi order had ever known, perfecting the various forms of combat techniques, both classical and experimental.
Shaak Ti about Fisto, Tiin and Kolar:
"I'm the chosen one. My place is there." His breathing roughened, and he looked as if he was getting even sicker. "I have to be there. That's the prophecy, isn't it? I have to be there-"
"Anakin, why? The Masters are the best of the Order. What can you possibly do?"
Mace Windu about Fisto, Tiin and Kolar:
"Forget not the existence of Sidious. Anticipate your action, he may. Masters will be necessary, if the Lord of the Sith you must face."
"I have chosen four of our best. Master Tiin, Master Kolar, and Master Fisto are all here, in the Temple. They are preparing already."
Which would leave Mace and Agen Kolar-both among the greatest bladesbeings the Jedi Order had ever produced-here on Coruscant in case Sidious did indeed take this opportunity to make a dramatic move.
Now once again focus on capabilities of the following warriors whom HoT subdued in single combat:-
1. The Emperor's Wrath
As the Sith Emperor's personal executioner, the grimly fatalistic Lord Scourge has personally killed more than a hundred Jedi–and ten times as many Sith. Even the most powerful members of the Dark Council avoid offending the man bearing the title "the Emperor's Wrath." (SWTOR)
How good were his foes?
When a Jedi grew too powerful or a Sith too ambitious, Scourge eliminated the threat. (SWTORE, Page 94)
keep this in mind:
There was only one Scourge, his life prolonged by Sith Alchemy, and his battle prowess enhanced by the Emperor. (SWTORE, Page 94)
Lord Scourge became noticeably more powerful during his reign as Emperor's Wrath.
Not a single Jedi or Sith of PT era have a kill record against worthy foes this high; not even close.
2. Sith Lord Praven
During the Sacking of Coruscant, Lord Praven killed Master Usma–one of the Jedi's most famous duelists–in an epic battle. But he spared Usma's young Padawan, telling her to seek him out once she had finished her training so they could face each other as equals. When she tracked him down years later, he honored his promise, sending her to the same fate as her Master.
---
Still have doubts about HoT's capabilities?
Originally posted by Intrepid37
"The next few hours will test the limits of your agility, speed, and accuracy," Plagueis said, as several hundred of the biggest, bravest, and most skilled warriors-their bodies daubed in pigments derived from plants, clay, and soil-began to separate themselves from the crowds. "But this is more than some simple exercise in proficiency; it is a rite of passage for these beings, as they are assistants in our rise to ultimate power, and therefore servants of the dark side of the Force. Centuries from now, advanced by the Sith, they might confront us with projectile weapons or energy beams. But by then we will have evolved, as well, perhaps past the need for this rite, and we will come instead to honor rather than engage them in battle. Through power we gain victory, and through victory our chains are broken. But power is only a means to an end."
---
When HoT arrived on Tython, he was confronted by native warriors known as Flesh Raiders who were so dangerous that they nearly devastated the Order on Tython:
Surviving a fierce battle against these monstrous enemies and saving numerous students, the Padawan receives a challenging new teacher from the High Council: iconoclastic war hero Master Orgus Din. (SWTORE, Page 92)
HoT is then tasked by the Jedi High Council to stop Flesh Raiders; the whole adventure is filled with lot of challenges, Flesh Raiders, Corrupted Droids, dangerous native animals - all of whom HoT have to destroy. Later on during this quest, HoT comes across Flesh Raiders who are actually Force-wielders and are trained in the Jedi arts. HoT have to fight his way through an army of these formidable Flesh Raiders before reaching the leader of the Force; Bengel Morr.
---
So yes, HoT's exploits on Tython >>>> aforementioned example of Plagueis and Sidious.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Regardless, HoT is seemingly Plagueis's superior in combat.
Heck, these Sith Lords have done better then Plagueis:-
Example 1:
Darth Decimus, known as "the Bastion Lord" by his troops, has a reputation for leading from the front, charging into battle, and breaking apart enemy lines through sheer force of will. (SWTORE, Page 167)
Comments: This is against Republic forces.
Example 2:
Tales spread through the Republic of the masked Dark Council member who routed whole armies and deflected assaults more thoroughly than a planetary shield. (SWTORE, Page 174)
Comments: This individual is Darth Marr.
---
So yes, their is hype and then their are facts. Learn to differentiate between the two.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
In contrast;
Check the power behind Force push of Darach. The opponent is a Sith Inquisitor and Malgus's Sith Master.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
So Dooku depended upon his droids to gain upperhand over Mace? How convenient.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
This does not change the fact that Sidious surpassed him.Besides:
Still struggling for breath, Plagueis managed to stand, but only to collapse back onto the couch, knocking a statue from its perch. Sidious moved in, his hands upraised to deliver another bolt, his expression arctic enough to chill the room. A Force storm gathered over the couch, spreading out in concentric rings, to wash over Sidious and hurl objects to all corners. In the center of it, Plagueis's form became anamorphic, then resumed shape as the storm began to wane.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
"I'm a slow learner," Anakin replied coolly, and he came on then, so suddenly, so powerfully, his green blade whirling with such speed that he seemed almost encased in green light.
Seems like encased in red light.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
The Emperor, unprepared and with much of his strength diverted to his effort to dominate Revan’s mind, was sent flying backward.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
-Revan“True, but we didn’t know that at the time,” Revan explained. “We were being led into a trap; the Emperor wanted us to come to him. When we got to his throne room, he was ready and waiting.” His voice dropped low. “We underestimated his power. When we confronted him, he didn’t even have to fight us. Instead, he broke our wills. He dominated our minds, turning us into puppets to do his bidding. He sent us back to the Republic as the vanguard of his invasion, with instructions to report back when all resistance was crushed.
-Revan
The novel represents Revan's viewpoint of the battle. However, neutral or 3rd party explanation of the same event is in canonical description 1 below:
Canonical description 1:
Over 300 years ago, the great Jedi heroes Revan and Malak stumbled upon the long-hidden Sith Empire's capital of Dromund Kaas, and its ruler - ]a mysterious, almost godlike avatar of the dark side. They argued briefly over whether to alert the Republic and Jedi Council, but Revan was already too consumed by arrogance and anger to consider the possibility of defeat. By the time Revan and Malak approached the Emperor in his throne room, they were already on the precipice of the dark side. It took only a fraction of the Emperor's loathsome power to complete their fall. The Jedi succumbed utterly to the Sith leader's domination and returned to the Republic to spark a new conflict: the Jedi Civil War. (SWTORE, Page 88)
And Vitiate is canonically capable of breaking any adversary with his mental powers, even the strongest ones:
Canonical description 2:
The Sith Emperor has mastered the dark side's power to become the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen. His corrupting influence is so complete that none can stand in his presence without succumbing to fear, anger and hatred. The Emperor can wither and ruin even the strongest Jedi's connection to the light side.
Jedi Master Tol Braga's strike team was not the first group to succumb to the Sith leader's oppressive influence. Hundreds of years ago, the Jedi Revan and Malak discovered Dromund Kaas and confronted the Emperor. They fell to the dark side and returned to Republic space as Sith Lords. Since then, dozens more Jedi have followed the same path into evil. (SWTOR codex entry)
Originally posted by pencilcrayon
"EXPERT SWORDSMAN" can range from beings who are slow enough to be shot by a bounty hunter and having difficulty with 3 droids per wave ( Scourge in the Revan book ), to beings who can produce after images for even a very quick force sensitive. How are any of those "expert swordsman" comparable to even Maul, who's trained by the most powerful Sith Lord ever.
Scourge killed both of those Bounty Hunters, didn't he?
In addition, Scourge had problem dealing with the droids in UDM due to this reason;
Scourge nodded. Battling a living foe was intoxicating; with each attack and counter he felt a rush of heat coursing through his veins, energizing and empowering him. Yet he had felt almost none of that at the UDM plant. "When I fought the security droid, there was nothing to grab on to. It was cold. Empty."
"Precisely. You tried to feed off its nonexistent emotions, and in doing so only made yourself weaker. I wonder that this wasn't observed in you; even the most powerful gift needs guiding to be used effectively." She shook her head. "You are so used to using your gift that you neglect the most basic source of power: yourself. The next time you find yourself in a similar situation, you must turn your focus inward. Draw on your own emotions, and you will destroy your mechanical enemies as readily as you slaughter your organic ones."
Scourge nodded. He did not like being lectured, but her observation was a good one: he realized that he had, indeed, learned to rely on the emotions of his enemies to feed his power, and he had not seen that such a gift could also be a weakness. But one that, with time and practice, could be overcome.
"A valuable lesson, my lord. One I will take to heart."
---
Scourge was a natural siphon(er): he siphoned on the emotions of his opponents to fuel his power and not just his own. Scourge became so much addicted to his siphoning talent that he relied less on his emotions to fuel his power and this is was the flaw which Nyriss tutored him to address and he did so; against the Imperial Guard, Scourge used his own emotions to fuel his power in-addition to using the emotions of his opponents for the same purpose.
In comparison to Maul?
- Scourge became such a skilled swordsman that during his final days in the Sith academy, his Sith Masters were reluctant to duel him. He fought in many battles afterwards and became so popular he was handpicked by the Sith Emperor himself to help Nyriss in her struggle against her enemies.
- Scourge (in his prime; Emperor's Wrath incarnation) have kill record of over a thousand Jedi and Sith.
Maul seems humbled in comparison.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
All is nice...Now once again focus on capabilities of the following warriors whom HoT subdued in single combat:-
[B]1. The Emperor's Wrath
As the Sith Emperor's personal executioner, the grimly fatalistic Lord Scourge has personally killed more than a hundred Jedi–and ten times as many Sith. Even the most powerful members of the Dark Council avoid offending the man bearing the title "the Emperor's Wrath." (SWTOR)
How good were his foes?
When a Jedi grew too powerful or a Sith too ambitious, Scourge eliminated the threat. (SWTORE, Page 94)
keep this in mind:
There was only one Scourge, his life prolonged by Sith Alchemy, and his battle prowess enhanced by the Emperor. (SWTORE, Page 94)
Lord Scourge became noticeably more powerful during his reign as Emperor's Wrath.
Not a single Jedi or Sith of PT era have a kill record against worthy foes this high; not even close. [/B]
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
[B]2. Sith Lord PravenDuring the Sacking of Coruscant, Lord Praven killed Master Usma–one of the Jedi's most famous duelists–in an epic battle. But he spared Usma's young Padawan, telling her to seek him out once she had finished her training so they could face each other as equals. When she tracked him down years later, he honored his promise, sending her to the same fate as her Master. [/B]
Being one of the Jedi's most famous duelists is no better than being one of the Order's most talented lightsaber instructors (Bulq), one of the Order's best duelists (Fisto), a celebrated swordsman (Tiin), one of the Order's finest duelists (Ti), one of the greatest bladesbeings ever produced by the Order (Kolar), being the second-best duelist in the Order (Windu), being the best duelist in the Order (Yoda), being a nearly unstoppable weapon (Maul), being one of the most powerful Jedi in the 25,000 year history of the Order and an even greater Sith (Dooku), being the most powerful of his generation (Anakin), being 'the' master of Soresu (Kenobi), having superb skills (Luminara)...
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Check the red highlighted part. These were primitive warriors who stood no chance against powerful Sith Lords with their primitive weapons. Replace this force with an army of Sith and Plagueis and Sidious wouldn't have engaged them in combat like this.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
So yes, HoT's exploits on Tython >>>> aforementioned example of Plagueis and Sidious.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Heck, these Sith Lords have done better then Plagueis:-Example 1:
Darth Decimus, known as "the Bastion Lord" by his troops, has a reputation for leading from the front, charging into battle, and breaking apart enemy lines through sheer force of will. (SWTORE, Page 167)
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Example 2:Tales spread through the Republic of the masked Dark Council member who routed whole armies and deflected assaults more thoroughly than a planetary shield. (SWTORE, Page 174)
Comments: This individual is Darth Marr.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
So yes, their is hype and then their are facts. Learn to differentiate between the two.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Thanks for sharing. Bulq didn't accomplish much with his Force push since Mace was back quickly.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Thanks for sharing.So Dooku depended upon his droids to gain upperhand over Mace? How convenient.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I do believe that Sidious surpassed Plagueis in power but during OT era at minimum; much more convincingly during DE era.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Jedi Master Tol Braga (corrupted) in action:-Seems like encased in red light.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This indicates that Vitiate was caught off-guard by Revan's offensive power while he was attempting to break Revan with his mental powers. Vitiate wasn't exhausted or anything and Revan reacted swiftly to his mental brush. Credit goes to Revan for pulling off such an impressive move.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Plagueis' kill count is 'two'. Grievous' is over hundred. Do you want to establish Grievous as a more worthy foe than Plagueis?
Against Emperor's Wrath, Plagueis's only chance is with his Force-mastery. However complication is that Emperor's Wrath is virtually immortal; it is unclear at the moment that how he can be killed.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Being one of the Jedi's most famous duelists is no better than being one of the Order's most talented lightsaber instructors (Bulq), one of the Order's best duelists (Fisto), a celebrated swordsman (Tiin), one of the Order's finest duelists (Ti), one of the greatest bladesbeings ever produced by the Order (Kolar), being the second-best duelist in the Order (Windu), being the best duelist in the Order (Yoda), being a nearly unstoppable weapon (Maul), being one of the most powerful Jedi in the 25,000 year history of the Order and an even greater Sith (Dooku), being the most powerful of his generation (Anakin), being 'the' master of Soresu (Kenobi), having superb skills (Luminara)...
Usma, at minimum, didn't turned out be a fodder for anybody; she lost only once as per available evidence but not without putting an epic fight. So a notch-up for Sith Lord Praven for being able to subdue her after a clash of "epic proportions" with her. In turn, this bodes very well for HoT's combat abilities; he is "considerably above" the risk of being within the fodder domain in the big picture.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
I never said as much. In fact, I merely pointed out the stamina shown by Sidious and Plagueis (I can't remember the original point to be honest).
Originally posted by Intrepid37
I never made the comparison. Besides, you know as well as I that both Sidious and Plagueis have better showings.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
This is not even close to Plagueis' level.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
This is not close either.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
I agree. Until you prove otherwise, the accolade on the backcover of Plagueis' book is canon and fact.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Point is, inferior duelists can force push superior duelists.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Not to gain the advantage, but rather allowing him to escape [easier]. The actual duel was completely even.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
I really don't care what you think. Sidious surpassed Plagueis as of TPM, deal with it.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
No, he's just moving his saber in a blur.
his green blade whirling with such speed that he seemed almost encased in green light.
The image that I posted depicts Tol Braga enased in red light of his blade.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Nothing you've posted confirms that Vitiate can use his mind-domination abilities without the advantages of preparation and focus; in fact, Drew thinks otherwise.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Also, Scourge above Maul? Really?
Originally posted by pencilcrayon
Scourge was shot once and saved by his armor ( on two occasions ) Something that wouldn't happen to other Jedi at least not by one or two attackers.
Also, wearing combat armor is not a bad thing; it improves chances of survival.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
By the end of the Clone Wars, Grievous's skills had developed to such a degree that he was capable of taking on even (Jedi Master) Obi-Wan and kill him in single combat.
Filoni has gone on-record to say that ''it's not that good of a match'' when Jedi get him to one-on-one terms''. Point is, his high kill count doesn't show in his fights with Jedi who possess kill records of zero
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
So he wouldn't be a pushover for Plagueis in martial aspects of combat at-least.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Against Emperor's Wrath, Plagueis's only chance is with his Force-mastery.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
For example: Fisto lost not just to Sidious but also to Ventress.
The cavern was awash with whirling bodies. These were lackeys, and Ventress would sacrifice every one of them to learn what she wished to know. She knew the Jedi wouldn't just cut them down. She was watching, and studying, and saving the moment for herself. The Jedi's unarmed tactics would reveal their lightsaber technique: there was nothing they could do to prevent it.
-The Cestus Deception
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
In contrast, Tinn and Kolar turned out be even worse then Fisto up against Sidious.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Heck, Opress relatively put up a better fight against Sidious then the aforementioned 3 Jedi Masters.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Usma, at minimum, didn't turned out be a fodder for anybody; she lost only once as per available evidence but not without putting an epic fight. So a notch-up for Sith Lord Praven for being able to subdue her after a clash of "epic proportions" with her.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Well, such stamina is not exclusive to them. If you attempted to impress with this example, you failed in your task.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Once again! This is your subjective opinion. By virtue of available evidence, the very first notable opponent that HoT subdued in single combat is seemingly stronger then Dooku. And HoT proceeded to accomplish lot more later on. HoT even struck down a Voice of the Emperor in a duel of "apocalyptic proportions."
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Seriously? He did that to Republic forces; not some lame native species.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
So single-handedly defeating "armies of the Republic" is inferior showing to "slaughtering a force of considerably less capable of primitive fighters"? 🙄
Besides, fighting Kursid warriors is far from Plagueis' and Sidious' best showing.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And he is not exclusive to this accolade. The fact that this accolade has been awarded to him on the backcover of the novel dedicated to him and not within the canonical story inside, indicates that it has more marketing appeal then actual credibility.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes, but performance varies and Darach's showing is much more impressive then that of Bulq's.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This duel doesn't proves Dooku's "supposed" equivalency with Mace in martial abilities and power in the Force; Dooku was able to hold Mace for a short while but decided to disengage and escape ASAP.
The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible-wickedness cut in red light.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Concrete evidence is lacking since the author himself pointed out that Plagueis would have beaten Sidious in a fair fight. Fail.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The image that I posted depicts Tol Braga enased in red light of his blade.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And how much time do you think Vitiate needs to unleash his mental powers? Does not takes even a second as revealed in SWTOR :Revan novel with the example of him giving a slight mental brush to Scourge.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Combat-prowess wise, YES.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
All things considered, Eeth Koth held him off with a wounded arm, Adi Gallia held him off too, Fisto put him on his ass, as did Ventress.Filoni has gone on-record to say that ''it's not that good of a match'' when Jedi get him to one-on-one terms''. Point is, his high kill count doesn't show in his fights with Jedi who possess kill records of zero
In contrast, Emperor's Wrath is a bold and straightforward warrior like Darth Malgus. The fact that he struck down many powerful opponents is testament to his great skill and power. I am excluding the possibility of Emperor's Wrath capable of playing dirty if the situation demanded such a course of action to get the job done but available evidence depicts him as a bold and straightforward warrior.
By virtue of available evidence, Emperor's Wrath >>> Grievous.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
lolConsidering how Plagueis hates lightsaber duels, I doubt he would even try to engage him with one.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
You need only to read the actual text to know why he did:The cavern was awash with whirling bodies. These were lackeys, and Ventress would sacrifice every one of them to learn what she wished to know. She knew the Jedi wouldn't just cut them down. She was watching, and studying, and saving the moment for herself. The Jedi's unarmed tactics would reveal their lightsaber technique: there was nothing they could do to prevent it.
-The Cestus Deception
Originally posted by Intrepid37
They weren't ''worse'' than Fisto by the account of getting slaughtered before him: he was killed after a few seconds with the help of Mace.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Sidious was [obviously] toying with him.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Fisto was only fodder for Sidious (as if Usma wouldn't be). As for Kolar, his only loss that I'm aware of was against Sidious; victories include a stomp of Quinlan Vos.
Kolar's fall certainly baffles me. Maybe Vos and Bulq aren't so great after all.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
I meant better showings than fighting Kursid warriors.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
A reputation that consists of killing republic forces is in the same league as Plagueis?
Originally posted by Intrepid37
''Armies of the republic'' is what exactly?
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Besides, fighting Kursid warriors is far from Plagueis' and Sidious' best showing.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Not really. The fact that the other version of the novel (hardback or paperback, don't remember) doesn't give him the accolade makes it clear it wasn't for marketing appeal.
Was it so difficult to declare him the most powerful Sith Lord ever within the story? No, but the author or publisher played smart.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
I wasn't trying to make Bulq's more impressive, just making a point that a force push isn't very uber unless it's very powerful.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
It does, actually.The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible-wickedness cut in red light.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
The Encyclopedia is more canon than the authors comments. 😬
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Not really. Anakin was practically covered in light: Braga moved his saber in a blur, ie the light behind the saber.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
He doesn't need much time if he already prepared himself, but in this time, he doesn't get time to prepare himself.
In the novel, his eyes flashed and his mental powers were already in the works.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
no
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
By virtue of available evidence, Emperor's Wrath >>> Grievous.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Why does he hates lightsaber duels?
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Ventress played smart; however, this doesn't discredits the my point that Fisto failed to overwhelm her and got his @ss handed to him in response. If Sidious was in Fisto's place, do you think that Ventress could have outdueled him? I don't think so, therefore, Fisto's failure is not excusable.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Fisto managed to parry Sidious's initial blitz.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What?
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
So because Fisto turned out to be fodder for Sidious, then this means that Usma would also be? What kind of logic is this?
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Kolar's fall certainly baffles me. Maybe Vos and Bulq aren't so great after all.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Shattering the frontline of a Republic army doesn't sounds like big deal to you? Can you imagine taking on Republic forces like that?
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What kind of a question is this?
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Such a statement occurring on the back-cover of a book and not within the actual story is representative of a marketing appeal.Was it so difficult to declare him the most powerful Sith Lord ever within the story? No, but the author or publisher played smart.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You are comparing apples and oranges here. This source represents an assumption and not a concrete fact. When the two actually clashed, Dooku chose to flee like he normally did against other superior opponents.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Issue is with release dates here; Encyclopedia is much older source then the novel dedicated to Plagueis. The latest viewpoint is that Plagueis could defeat PT era Sidious in combat at least. However, this doesn't disqualifies the assertion of the Encyclopedia that Sidious relatively lacked in skill and/or strength but that Plagueis could be relatively smarter combatant or packed greater tolerance.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
That quote is obviously symbolic in its description of Anakin's blade-work.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Once again, how much time he needs to prepare to unleash his mental powers?
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Debatable. As Emperor's Wrath, he is superior to Maul.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
That's not the point, but rather that a high kill count won't save you.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
To Plagueis, lightsaber duels were tedious affairs, full of wasted emotion and needless acrobatics. Tenebrous, however, who had pronounced Plagueis a master of the art, had always enjoyed a good fight, and had clearly bequeathed that enthusiasm to his other trainee.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
You're making it out as if losing to Ventress in a circumstancial fight takes away the accolade of being one of the Order's best, which it doesn't.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Mace was helping.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Sidious let Opress put up the fight he did.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Can you prove otherwise?
Originally posted by Intrepid37
They don't lack skill (maybe Vos does), just speed.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Republic army of what? Jedi? Troopers?
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Answer the question.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Prove it's non-canon.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Not really. Dooku only fled from Yoda twice, both times because he was clearly the inferior opponent. In this fight, the duel depicts no such thing. As I have said already, he fled because his plans had been realized by the Jedi.
Their is no need to rely on just one source to make a point. Focus on the holistic picture.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Luceno's novels are canon: his opinion and comments outside of it are not.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Prove it.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
I don't know. But this is by all means a random fight/encounter. Odds are it takes longer for him to prepare than it takes for Anakin to cut him down.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Depends upon the characteristics of the individual in question. By virtue of available evidence, Emperor's Wrath outguns Grievous in all aspects of combat. He has killed many (powerful) adversaries and only HoT was able to outduel him in a span of several centuries. This is big.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Interesting! This reinforces my POV that his supposed superiority over Emperor's Wrath is not certain.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
On what basis is it a circumstantial fight? Was it a preplanned setup to trap Fisto or something? Did Ventress employed some kind of help to bring down Fisto?
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I rechecked the fight depicted in the movie; you are correct.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Proof?
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I do not need to prove anything here because I have not made any assumption in this regard; do not know how Usma will perform against Sidious.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Possible!
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is not clear but dominating a Republic Army out in the open like that is impossible for majority of individuals in the mythos.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I am not sure about its canon validity but accolades are normally awarded to characters within the stories/literature and not on book covers.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
In addition, you mentioned that not every book of Plagueis have this statement written on its back-cover?
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
1. The word "perhaps" indicates an assumption.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
2. Dooku chose to flee from Mace.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
3. Mace's showings are superior to that of Dooku.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Nice! So I should discredit Drew's statements about Vitiate as well?
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Anakin's spun his blade at such a speed that it gave the impression of him being encased in its light. I showed you a depiction of this kind of action. Use your brain now.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You need to drop this BS then; Vitiate have never been blitzed by any opponent regardless of the opponent's capabilities.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Even HoT was not able to blitz him and he is superior to Anakin in all aspects.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
I'm not comparing him to Grievous: but how skilled were the Jedi and Sith that Scourge slew? How many at once? How long did it take him? Unless all three can be answered, it's not really important.
As the feared "Emperor's Wrath", Scourge enforced his Master's will for more than three centuries. When a Jedi grew too powerful or a Sith too ambitious, Scourge eliminated the threat. (SWTORE, Page 94)
Scourge became more powerful and dangerous as Emperor's Wrath then he ever had been:
There was only on Scourge, his life prolonged by Sith alchemy, and his battle prowess enhanced by the Emperor. (SWTORE, Page 94)
His extreme kill record is indicative of his extraordinary skill and power that he gained while being the Emperor's Wrath. On top of this, he would have accumulated lot of experience since he has been through a lot. Heck, it is currently unclear how he can even be killed.
Scourge's much inferior incarnation has taken on multiple dangerous foes simultaneously and slaughtered them. The Emperor's Wrath incarnation would have done better.
Emperor's Wrath were supposed to be extraordinarily powerful and skilled because they had to enforce Vitiate's will whenever and where-ever necessary.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Although Plagueis only has one feat with his saber, it's a good one. He killed Venamis who was using the exact same style as Plagueis and was basically trained to kill him. For Plagueis to defeat him is a good feat.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
She was watching them and learning their moves so she could counter them easier. The instant before they fought her, they had been fighting through an army of X'ting without their weapons, so they were pretty tired.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Laughing, not igniting his saber at the start, reducing his speed so Opress could follow his movements etc
Originally posted by Intrepid37
You tried to make a point of Usma not being fodder for anyone and that Fisto were: thing is, Usma has done nothing indicative of being able to do better than Fisto.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Do you have any information about the army? Size, individuals etc?
Originally posted by Intrepid37
In this case, it was.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
The hardback has it, not the paper back, indicating that it wasn't written for marketing.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
You're reading it wrong: it doesn't say ''perhaps'' as in ''perhaps Mace is an equal to Dooku'' it says ''perhaps'' as in ''perhaps only Mace is an equal to Dooku, but there may be others''.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Not because of inferiority.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Outside a circumstancial victory over Sidious? No. Dooku eclipses him in everything.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
If you want to. Difference is, you have no canon source that contradict Drew's statement, but I do for Luceno's.
It didn't took him much time to mentally subdue Scourge; his eyes flashed and the deed was done.
In addition, an SWTOR codex entry reveals that he can break even the strongest of the Jedi with his mental powers.
It can be argued that Vitiate has element of surprise on his side; a new opponent have no clue that Vitiate can mentally mess him/her up. Therefore, any opponent he wishes to break, he succeeds in doing so during the confrontation.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
The depiction wasn't replicating that.
The individual seems to be encased in the light of his blade when he swung it.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
He's never faced anyone as fast as Anakin, so yeah.
You have yet to prove that Anakin can blitz any opponent of note. The speed with which he can swing his lightsaber is irrelevant.
In contrast, HoT have actually blitzed highly skilled opponents and he have done so even when such opponents had element of surprise over him. Go figure.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Prove it.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Some information:As the feared "Emperor's Wrath", Scourge enforced his Master's will for more than three centuries. When a Jedi grew too powerful or a Sith too ambitious, Scourge eliminated the threat. (SWTORE, Page 94)
Scourge became more powerful and dangerous as Emperor's Wrath then he ever had been:
There was only on Scourge, his life prolonged by Sith alchemy, and his battle prowess enhanced by the Emperor. (SWTORE, Page 94)
His extreme kill record is indicative of his extraordinary skill and power that he gained while being the Emperor's Wrath. On top of this, he would have accumulated lot of experience since he has been through a lot. Heck, it is currently unclear how he can even be killed.
Scourge's much inferior incarnation has taken on multiple dangerous foes simultaneously and slaughtered them. The Emperor's Wrath incarnation would have done better.
Emperor's Wrath were supposed to be extraordinarily powerful and skilled because they had to enforce Vitiate's will whenever and where ever necessary.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Agreed! Though he is still disadvantaged against Emperor's Wrath on the basis of available
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Now you finally have a point. Though I would appreciate if you would show me canon information about this event.
[i]"Surely they're not surrendering," Kit said.
Ventress laughed. "By no means. I told them they don't stand a chance against you with blasters."
"And ..."
"And now," she said, "defend yourselves, Jedi."
The young X'Ting thugs moved in. Obi-Wan groaned. He couldn't simply cut them down. Young and foolish, they believed they were acting for the good of the hive.
"I know what you're thinking," Ventress grinned. "You wish you could talk to them. A pity you don't speak X'Ting."
"Obi-Wan?" Kit asked.
"Well, we can't just slaughter them."
No.. ? Kit seemed to want to ask. "They're hardly innocent." The Nautolan radiated urgency, the pull of Form I strong as he prepared for battle. Ventress was the key. They had to stop her. And if these idiots put themselves between them and Dooku's minion, the woman who might be the salvation of millions, that was their misfortune.
But... it would be a massacre. Obi-Wan searched his conscience, and made a hard decision. "We must do this without our lightsabers."
Kit seemed to struggle with the idea, and then finally sighed. "A bit of exercise, then," he said, and reluctantly extinguished his blade.
Obi-Wan dampened his as well, and as if on cue, Ventress's foolish young X'Ting allies attacked from every angle. Obi-Wan leaned away from the swipe of a durasteel crowbar, the edge of his foot cracking the X'Ting's knee as he did. A second youth jumped on him from behind. Obi-Wan gripped a primary right hand, a secondary left hand, and torqued: The X'Ting corkscrewed through the air and shattered a pile of boxes.
Kit Fisto snarled, surrendering to the pull of Form I's unarmed techniques. His attack was absolute fluidity, one motion flowing into the next without a wasted effort. Heads cracked, limbs twisted against their joints, and X'Ting flipped howling into the lake.
Ventress stood back, her eyes watching, and Obi-Wan knew she was waiting, learning about her opponents.
The cavern was awash with whirling bodies. These were lackeys, and Ventress would sacrifice every one of them to learn what she wished to know. She knew the Jedi wouldn't just cut them down. She was watching, and studying, and saving the moment for herself. The Jedi's unarmed tactics would reveal their lightsaber technique: there was nothing they could do to prevent it.
Obi-Wan's opponents had enthusiasm, but little technique. The Force blossomed within him, and time perception distended, slowing reality to a crawl. He had all the time he needed to slide out of the way of the blows, retaliating with perfect economy.
From the corner of his eye he saw that Kit had made his way almost to Ventress, and what he saw as the Nautolan increased his efforts almost broke Obi-Wan's concentration. His companion was a living, martial hurricane, his body moving in two and three directions at once, joints flexing, unlimited by human vertebral restraints.
Who he touched went down. And those who went down, stayed down. Ventress might have gathered a rabble, but the youthful X'Ting were fearless, and fought as if for their lives.
Such an onslaught left no time for thought or planning, no room for pretty moves. There was only attack and defense, and precious little time for defense.
Obi-Wan himself could only attack and attack, taking the battle to them, creating his own timing and distancing, smashing his way toward Ventress.
Stingers bared, the young X'Ting came at them in waves. Obi-Wan calmed himself, using them as shields against each other, moving continuously and ferociously as he went.
Now ... a blow from the upper left quadrant. Obi-Wan was just a hair slow defending there, and a wicked knife slit his cloak. Again and again, he narrowly skirted disaster. She's watching? Obi-Wan thought. Let her.
Obi-Wan missed the moment, but Kit finally won his way through to Ventress. She raised her hand, and the X'Ting who had harried the Nautolan turned to attack Obi-Wan, leaving her to face Kit alone.
-The Cestus Deception
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He laughed while fighting Yoda too. This is his style; he intimidates his opponent(s) in this manner. He gives his opponent(s) the impression that whatever he/she/they is/are doing is not enough. Good strategy.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
As per canon information about her, she hasn't been fodder for anyone. To assume that she would be for Sidious is asinine. She is one of the most famous duelists of the Order and this leaves room for lot of potential for the authors to depict her as an amazing combatant. The Sith Lord who killed her was an exceptionally skilled and powerful individual but she wasn't a walk in the park for him.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Not yet, but the word "army" indicates that it was a big force.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Well, time will tell that how he will promoted in future sources. We will have to wait and see.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
My focus is on Mace here and not on semantics. The quote which you offered proves nothing.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Speculation
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It isn't a circumstantial victory. Mace overwhelmed Sidious legitimately; he managed to disarm Sidious in contrast to others who failed in the same setting.
He won through a shatterpoint: the shatterpoint was Anakin's fear.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Also, Mace have better feats then Dooku.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You are not paying attention.It didn't took him much time to mentally subdue Scourge; his eyes flashed and the deed was done.
In addition, an SWTOR codex entry reveals that he can break even the strongest of the Jedi with this mental powers.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What is it replicating in your opinion then?
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
🙄You have yet to prove that Anakin can blitz any opponent of note. The speed with which he can swing his lightsaber is irrelevant.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
''When a Jedi grew too powerful'' is amgibous: what does that mean? As powerful as who? How powerful?
Originally posted by Intrepid37
11-4D is fast enough to react instantaneous and dodge blaser bolts; only by adjusting the input rate of its its photoreceptors were it able to track Plagueis movements, and yet the droid only saw Plagueis as a blur.
Scourge could also effortlessly switch between lightsaber dueling forms and even physically outpace a lightsaber swing itself:
He abruptly changed tactics, shifting from the conventional defensive positions of the Soresu form to the acrobatic attack sequences of Ataru. Taking two quick steps to gain speed, Scourge leapt at the nearby cavern wall, planted both feet on its vertical surface, then pushed off hard to launch himself in a spinning flip over the man's head.
His opponent tried to turn and pivot to keep Scourge in front of him, but the furious burst of action was too fast for his lightsaber to track. He was late bringing his blade up to protect his head, once again exposing himself to a lethal strike. (SWTOR: Revan)
Scourge's martial talents were amazing:
SCOURGE WAS AN EXPERT SWORDSMAN; at the Academy even the instructors had been reluctant to face him in the training ring. When the dark side flowed through him, his blade was more than a weapon. It became an extension of his will.
The blue highlighted part is very important; on the basis of this talent, Bane was able to hang with with relatively much superior duelist, Kas'im, in a duel.
Most importantly, Vitiate transformed Scourge in to an even more powerful and talented killing machine; an individual who slaughtered over a 1000 Jedi and Sith in total. Emperor's Wrath is a different ball game in comparison to SWTOR: Revan incarnation of Lord Scourge.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
The protocol droid barked an order, and all of Ventress's allies laid their weapons down.[i]"Surely they're not surrendering," Kit said.
Ventress laughed. "By no means. I told them they don't stand a chance against you with blasters."
"And ..."
"And now," she said, "defend yourselves, Jedi."
The young X'Ting thugs moved in. Obi-Wan groaned. He couldn't simply cut them down. Young and foolish, they believed they were acting for the good of the hive.
"I know what you're thinking," Ventress grinned. "You wish you could talk to them. A pity you don't speak X'Ting."
"Obi-Wan?" Kit asked.
"Well, we can't just slaughter them."
No.. ? Kit seemed to want to ask. "They're hardly innocent." The Nautolan radiated urgency, the pull of Form I strong as he prepared for battle. Ventress was the key. They had to stop her. And if these idiots put themselves between them and Dooku's minion, the woman who might be the salvation of millions, that was their misfortune.
But... it would be a massacre. Obi-Wan searched his conscience, and made a hard decision. "We must do this without our lightsabers."
Kit seemed to struggle with the idea, and then finally sighed. "A bit of exercise, then," he said, and reluctantly extinguished his blade.
Obi-Wan dampened his as well, and as if on cue, Ventress's foolish young X'Ting allies attacked from every angle. Obi-Wan leaned away from the swipe of a durasteel crowbar, the edge of his foot cracking the X'Ting's knee as he did. A second youth jumped on him from behind. Obi-Wan gripped a primary right hand, a secondary left hand, and torqued: The X'Ting corkscrewed through the air and shattered a pile of boxes.
Kit Fisto snarled, surrendering to the pull of Form I's unarmed techniques. His attack was absolute fluidity, one motion flowing into the next without a wasted effort. Heads cracked, limbs twisted against their joints, and X'Ting flipped howling into the lake.
Ventress stood back, her eyes watching, and Obi-Wan knew she was waiting, learning about her opponents.
The cavern was awash with whirling bodies. These were lackeys, and Ventress would sacrifice every one of them to learn what she wished to know. She knew the Jedi wouldn't just cut them down. She was watching, and studying, and saving the moment for herself. The Jedi's unarmed tactics would reveal their lightsaber technique: there was nothing they could do to prevent it.
Obi-Wan's opponents had enthusiasm, but little technique. The Force blossomed within him, and time perception distended, slowing reality to a crawl. He had all the time he needed to slide out of the way of the blows, retaliating with perfect economy.
From the corner of his eye he saw that Kit had made his way almost to Ventress, and what he saw as the Nautolan increased his efforts almost broke Obi-Wan's concentration. His companion was a living, martial hurricane, his body moving in two and three directions at once, joints flexing, unlimited by human vertebral restraints.
Who he touched went down. And those who went down, stayed down. Ventress might have gathered a rabble, but the youthful X'Ting were fearless, and fought as if for their lives.
Such an onslaught left no time for thought or planning, no room for pretty moves. There was only attack and defense, and precious little time for defense.
Obi-Wan himself could only attack and attack, taking the battle to them, creating his own timing and distancing, smashing his way toward Ventress.
Stingers bared, the young X'Ting came at them in waves. Obi-Wan calmed himself, using them as shields against each other, moving continuously and ferociously as he went.
Now ... a blow from the upper left quadrant. Obi-Wan was just a hair slow defending there, and a wicked knife slit his cloak. Again and again, he narrowly skirted disaster. She's watching? Obi-Wan thought. Let her.
Obi-Wan missed the moment, but Kit finally won his way through to Ventress. She raised her hand, and the X'Ting who had harried the Nautolan turned to attack Obi-Wan, leaving her to face Kit alone.
-The Cestus Deception
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Actually, he only laughed at Yoda when he had a clear terrain advantage and threw pods at Yoda: in the actual duel, he was clearly struggling.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Being one of the Order's best duelist is as good if not better than being on of the most famous duelists of the Order.
Usma was not fodder for Sith Lord Praven who in turn was not fodder for HoT who in turn is not fodder for nobody in the entire Galactic history. Get the picture now?
Originally posted by Intrepid37
The statement stands.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
It confirms they're equals, actually: as shown in their duel on Boz Pity.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Nope.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
It was, but discussing this is tiresome.He won through a shatterpoint: the shatterpoint was Anakin's fear.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Such as?
Originally posted by Intrepid37
None of this is relevant to the discussion. Prove he can use his mental powers without the aid of preparation (which he doesn't get in this fight)
Here is another example:
Lord Dramath intended to judge the child's power to determine if he was worthy of serving the Sith Lord, or if he should simply be executed. But Tenebrae had no intention of serving—or of dying. When they met face-to-face, Tenebrae proved the stronger. Only ten years old, he stripped his father of his power and his mind. (SWTOR: Revan)
Nowhere it is implied that he needs to prepare himself beforehand to break an opponent.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Having your whole body, perhaps except the head, covered in light.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
I don't need to prove he can blitz him: you need to prove that Vitiate can unleash his powers before Anakin can cut him down.