Starkiller and Mace Windu vs. Darth Sidious and Dooku

Originally posted by The_Tempest
We can't logically conclude that the outcome of a singular contest between peers represents a general rule unless otherwise notified. There's a world of difference between an instance and a trend.

Mace and Sidious fought at parity; that Mace happened to win that particular fight with a precise kick to the face doesn't mean he'd win all or even most fights. The only observable significant difference between the two is in terms of Force mastery—an advantage that clearly and consistently rests with Sidious.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Mace beats Sidious 10/10 times. However, that he did defeat him indicates that he could do so again, and is significant for our purposes. We are arguing about who wins in a fight after all. Obviously a canon instance of a fight between the two with a winner is kind of heavy evidence one way.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Obviously a canon instance of a fight between the two with a winner is kind of heavy evidence one way.

Me
There's a world of difference between an instance and a trend.

👆

The rest of your post is as substantive as vapor. The two dueled as peers and the only observable and consistent difference between the two is in the domain of Force mastery, where Sidious enjoys a tremendous advantage.

Only difference other than that one of them won and the other lost amiright?

There is a world of difference between an instance and a trend. The two fought at parity. And the only observable consistent difference between the two is in Force mastery, an advantage that Sidious enjoys.

Do you need to read it a fourth time?

I dunno, do you think posting it a fourth time will make it any less wrong/not meaningless bullshite? Kinda like how believing in something super hard enough can make it a little less fake.

Like your brain for instance. You dumb**** cumgaper.

You could always explain how it's "wrong" or "meaningless bullshite" rather than just say it is but then you wouldn't be you.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER

Actually I'd say Mace and Sidious were pretty even in Sabers. Just because Mace won that time, doesn't mean he'd take a majority.

I was being generous my friend. 🙂

Anakin was keeping up with Dooku just fine, and Dooku's been described as being equals with Mace before. Had Palpatine not been the Supreme Chancellor, each fight in sabers should lean towards Palpatine all the time. Anakin could see Mace from time to time, but Palpatine was a complete blur for him, and this was when Mace had that one time boost to his abilities.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Leagues above? Not really. One league, yes, but remember how casually the brothers got tooled by Sidious. A team one league above them is definitely within Sidious' range.

Well, while the battle was circumstantial--I don't need you to remind me of that--We HAVE seen the likes of Obi-Wan Kenobi take on the Maul Brothers alone and even broke Savage's leg and cut off his arm.

And in ROTS, we saw that Kenobi himself was unquestionably outmatched against Count Dooku--Who has been several times referenced as an equal to Mace Windu--This is not to say Mace Windu would also unquestionably do the same, but is it not extremely probable? If you consider Windu's power as more or less an equal to Dooku's, he's hardly only " a league " above the likes of Savage Opress, (Though maybe Darth Maul) as on the topic that was posted about a month ago, a majority of posters here deduced that Dooku would be able to solo the Maul Brothers himself. To further put this into Windu's advantage, through Vaapad he would be capable of dramatically boosting his power in a confrontation against Sidious.

Then on the other hand, we have Galen Marek, who was supposed to be more or less a perfect equal to Darth Vader. And Darth Vader has already been confirmed to only be 20% less than the Emperor himself, and we've seen in The Force Unleashed that Starkiller can already compete with the Dark Master, even if he is ultimately not a match alone. Another factor is that we don't even know how powerful Palpatine was when Galen fought him. We know that between ROTS and Dark Empire Sidious had grown substantially in power--Meaning it's also probable that Galen fought a greater incarnation of Sidious than ROTS.

In the end we have two combatants for Palpatine to face off against--One a master of the lightsaber, the other a Skywalker-Level Force User that has feats that hint at him being one of the greatest Force Lightning practitioners in the mythos. (Vaporizing people, anyone?) and while Palps can casually overpower the likes of Darth Maul and Savage Opress, this is a different match entirely, and while I'd honestly say Sidious is in the same playing field as this duo, he'd ultimately fall little match, being bombarded by Mace's saber assault like we saw in ROTS, while simultaniously being demolished by Galen's Force Powers? Sidious is good, but he's not invincible.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Well, while the battle was circumstantial--I don't need you to remind me of that--We HAVE seen the likes of Obi-Wan Kenobi take on the Maul Brothers alone and even broke Savage's leg and cut off his arm.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
And in ROTS, we saw that Kenobi himself was unquestionably outmatched against Count Dooku--Who has been several times referenced as an equal to Mace Windu--This is not to say Mace Windu would also unquestionably do the same, but is it not extremely probable?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
If you consider Windu's power as more or less an equal to Dooku's, he's hardly only " a league " above the likes of Savage Opress, (Though maybe Darth Maul)

Originally posted by NewGuy01
as on the topic that was posted about a month ago, a majority of posters here deduced that Dooku would be able to solo the Maul Brothers himself.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Then on the other hand, we have Galen Marek, who was supposed to be more or less a perfect equal to Darth Vader. And Darth Vader has already been confirmed to only be 20% less than the Emperor himself,

Originally posted by NewGuy01
and we've seen in The Force Unleashed that Starkiller can already compete with the Dark Master, even if he is ultimately not a match alone.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Another factor is that we don't even know how powerful Palpatine was when Galen fought him. We know that between ROTS and Dark Empire Sidious had grown substantially in power--Meaning it's also probable that Galen fought a greater incarnation of Sidious than ROTS.

I think, based on Rise of Darth Vader, it's fair to assume that Sidious' swordmastery got downgraded over time.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
In the end we have two combatants for Palpatine to face off against--One a master of the lightsaber, the other a Skywalker-Level Force User that has feats that hint at him being one of the greatest Force Lightning practitioners in the mythos. (Vaporizing people, anyone?) and while Palps can casually overpower the likes of Darth Maul and Savage Opress, this is a different match entirely, and while I'd honestly say Sidious is in the same playing field as this duo, he'd ultimately fall little match, being bombarded by Mace's saber assault like we saw in ROTS, while simultaniously being demolished by Galen's Force Powers? Sidious is good, but he's not invincible.

As for Starkiller, he had trouble with Shaak Ti, Paratus and Rahm Kota. He doesn't have a chance, in my opinion.

Even if Windu is merely a league above Maul and Savage, this ignores that he can use Vapaad as a superconducting loop to boost himself up to Sidious' level.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You could always explain how it's "wrong" or "meaningless bullshite" rather than just say it is but then you wouldn't be you.

Perhaps I would of if you'd stopped being a wussy little baby and outright said that you think Sidious wins instead of merely implied it like a coward. estahuh

What, is it not logical to conclude that the guy who won the fight..... would win again? What do you suggest we do, simply ignore the fact that Windu has beaten Sidious when discussing who would win in a fight between the two? Yes, that sure does make sense.

And your whole 'there's a world of difference between an instance and a trend' is meaningless peacocking. Why is there a huge difference between the two? Simply stating that doesn't mean anything unless you support it with evidence to the contrary and an argument against why Windu could replicate his win.

Finally your point about Sidious' Force advantage is stupid, and ignores that due to Vapaad Windu can weather Sidious' Force attacks. Kind of like how he actually did in the actual fight between the two that we can use to see how an actual fight between the two would actually go. Because it actually already happened. :I

Originally posted by Nephthys
Even if Windu is merely a league above Maul and Savage, this ignores that he can use Vapaad as a superconducting loop to boost himself up to Sidious' level.

Originally posted by Nephthys
What, is it not logical to conclude that the guy who won the fight..... would win again?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Finally your point about Sidious' Force advantage is stupid, and ignores that due to Vapaad Windu can weather Sidious' Force attacks. Kind of like how he actually did in the actual fight between the two that we can use to see how an actual fight between the two would actually go. Because it actually already happened. :I

Jedi Master MACE WINDU and the Sith Lord fight their way down the hallway and into the main office area. PALPATINE is able to use the Force to slam MACE against the wall, but he recovers before the Chancellor can cut him down.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
This ignores that Mace never fought Sidious as an equal... he was being forced back the entire time.

And this ignores the novel which explicitly states that they were fighting as equals.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Nah.

Jedi Master MACE WINDU and the Sith Lord fight their way down the hallway and into the main office area. PALPATINE is able to use the Force to slam MACE against the wall, but he recovers before the Chancellor can cut him down.

Thanks for posting an example of Sidious' Force Mastery not being able to decisively turn the fight to his favor.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And this ignores the novel which explicitly states that they were fighting as equals.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Thanks for posting an example of Sidious' Force Mastery not being able to decisively turn the fight to his favor.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
They had reached an impasse... after 20 seconds... for that matter, I can depict Dooku's duel with Yoda on Geonosis as an impasse...

These two situations are completely different and you know it. Not a abd reach but it's still a reach.

...in the span of 30 seconds...

Originally posted by Based
These two situations are completely different and you know it.

I haven't seen episode three is a long time but remind me the part where one of the combatants ran away. Or remind me in episode two when either Yoda or Dooku got disarmed like Palpatine did against Mace.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
They had reached an impasse... after 20 seconds... for that matter, I can depict Dooku's duel with Yoda on Geonosis as an impasse... because neither could overpower the other in the spam of 30 seconds...

Not really sure what your point is here. The novels states that they were at an impasse because they were equal, even stating that the fight 'might have gone on forever.' So.... are you agreeing with me?

Cuz you could have just conceeded. Jeez.....

FFS. Guys, did I say "GALEN MAREK" or "STARKILLER", Galen Marek's clone, who should be described already more powerful than the original, as I think he is equal or even above the Dark Apprentice.

I don't support the claim that the uncanon defeat of the Apprentice at Sidious's hands is accurate because he is, as I said, already more powerful than the original and he has two sabers. If Sids intends on Lightning whoring during a saber lock, SK can block it with his other saber--which brings up another one of my ideas that as powerful as Dooku is, I can see him barely on par with Starkiller's flurries as shown in the E3 trailer.

I think it's fair to me to think that Mace did have Sidious in trouble quite a few times, who constantly backed away. The only thing stopping Mace from killing Sidious after a closed-in lightsaber duel is the fact that I'm letting Sidious use his other saber as a backup, and lightning wouldn't bode well when Mace can deflect it as well as he did in ep3.

The clone of Starkiller did things far above the original's capacity, like surviving the open surface of a half-disintegrated freighter, which should be as powerful if not more powerful than Sids' lightning. Not to mention that he single-handedly fended off a bloodthirsty Gorog while on hard-to-balance surfaces and keeping himself occupied with Stormies. I don't care if Galen died because Sids got him in close quarters. As I said, this is the way more powerful clone who won't have to worry about saving a Rebellion or have the time to listen to Jedi guidance that advised against killing the Emperor right then, right there.

Dooku can't match Starkiller in the Force IMO, but he should prove a challenge in saber combat. Still, Starkiller was very unpredictable in TFU2, and as depicted in the novels, Sids wasn't the only one who used the assumption of weakness to gain the upper hand, and Starkiller wasn't begging for his life.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Perhaps I would of if you'd stopped being a wussy little baby and outright said that you think Sidious wins instead of merely implied it like a coward.
estahuh

Your jealousy of my skills as a wordsmith is amusing, but it's not my fault that you have all the finesse of an epileptic with polio.

Originally posted by Nephthys
What, is it not logical to conclude that the guy who won the fight..... would win again?

Kindly direct me to where in this thread I said as much.

Originally posted by Nephthys
What do you suggest we do, simply ignore the fact that Windu has beaten Sidious when discussing who would win in a fight between the two? Yes, that sure does make sense.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And your whole 'there's a world of difference between an instance and a trend' is meaningless peacocking. Why is there a huge difference between the two?

Merriam-Webster
To show a tendency : incline <prices trending upward

Merriam-Webster
a step, stage, or situation viewed as part of a process or series of events <prefers, in this instance, to remain anonymous

By their very different definitions, the two terms are very different. I'm not sure if you're being deliberately obtuse or if your fluency in the English language is tenuous but I'm not interested in that rigamarole in either case.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Simply stating that doesn't mean anything unless you support it with evidence to the contrary and an argument against why Windu could replicate his win.

I never claimed Windu couldn't replicate his win, but you seem so keen on combating a caricature rather than the real deal, so feel free to have this debate (both sides of it) on your own if you aren't up to the task. 👆

Originally posted by Nephthys
Finally your point about Sidious' Force advantage is stupid, and ignores that due to Vapaad Windu can weather Sidious' Force attacks. Kind of like how he actually did in the actual fight between the two that we can use to see how an actual fight between the two would actually go. Because it actually already happened. :I

Perhaps if Mace demonstrated a clear and decisive advantage I would be amenable to the idea that he would take a majority, but he didn't and I'm not. Sidious is, at the very least, a comparable duelist and a superior Force user. Drawing on their respective abilities and capabilities, he enjoys a clear advantage as Intrepid37 and Mizukage_Yoda have both respectably demonstrated.

So, to recap: your argument conflates an instance with a trend, disregards Sidious's superior Force mastery and comparable swordsmanship, hinges on clumsy scripting, and contains more straw than the entirety of the Great Plains.

You're boring me, Neph. If your next post is anything like the one I'm quoting now, don't waste your time.