Originally posted by Sh3nG L0nG
Don't see how this isn't a viable tactic for prime but Thor summoning red sun radiation is.
Most likely due to the stips. CIP/CIS off seems to mean that we go by "forum tourney mode "Thor where all his powers can be used and exploited for as long as he's been seen to use. SBP doesn't get the same courtesy, however, meaning that he has to fight using his average showings and has to fight according to how he's characteristically portrayed in a comic.
Originally posted by ODG
That's the problem then. Not thinking that a CIS/CIP-less Superman, Black Adam, Hal Jordan or Captain Marvel could take him on. Are we just forgetting the levels of foes that Superman, Hal and the Shazams have fought and beaten?
NOT forgetting was precisely my point. i know who they have beaten. the writers know who they have beaten. dc knows who they have beaten. and yet they still demonstrated repeatedly how each stacked up against prime. so, they jobbed to him or they (dc) wanted it firmly established he was beyond them, despite the respective histories of hal, kal, billy, and any number of heroes/villains who have had uber shining moments in their careers. i'll choose to accept the latter.
Originally posted by leonidas
NOT forgetting was precisely my point. i know who they have beaten. the writers know who they have beaten. dc knows who they have beaten. and yet they still demonstrated repeatedly how each stacked up against prime. so, they jobbed to him or they (dc) wanted it firmly established he was beyond them, despite the respective histories of hal, kal, billy, and any number of heroes/villains who have had uber shining moments in their careers. i'll choose to accept the latter.
I think with CIS/CIP off, a character no longer operate at writer-percieved/history-established/heirarchy-placed power levels but are now fighting based on powerset and how this powerset (wherein even the rarest of powers and power-level "showings" that seemed like a good idea for the writer at that time) may be exploited to its maximum potential. I think, from this way of thinking, many characters (especially those that have showcased a high level of versatility with their abilities) can easily operate at levels or at least battle characters beyond their current tier.
Originally posted by cdtm
And your reasons, as originally given, was because SBP doesn't really get hampered by CIS...Which has evolved to "It's lopsided if SBP doesn't have some CIS on", in your reply to Jake.
Basically, it would have been easier to state off the bat whether you wanted a CIS-less fight, or wanted to somewhat handicap SBP.
This.
Originally posted by OdekahnLike carver9 said, it's not. The CIS/CIP-less stips only apply to Thor.
But this is a CIS/CIP-less Prime also.
And if Superman Prime ever once showed real fighting skill and acumen or creative use of his powers, being CIP/CIS-less might make a significant difference for him. He doesn't become a forum avatar; mods have made that clear multiple times. He just performs at his peak on-panel best without plot compromising him. He still is Superboy Prime. And he's a rather blusterous child. He doesn't get an artificial boost in intelligence or skill when CIP/CIS are turned off.
Think of Rhino. CIP/CIS off doesn't turn him into a Rhodes scholar with MMA training. It just means he's not especially stupider than usual due to plot circumstances.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.OlympusOr Yat led that charge and took the brunt of the blast.
Did she assume Yat's race was less durable then hers or that he's an inferior Green Lantern? She took the same attack and was fine. That's weird.
Originally posted by leonidasYou'll choose to accept the latter despite Superboy and Bart Allen individually giving Superman Prime a hard time, every time. Despite rookie Ion Sodam Yat lasting an entire issue against him, whose fight mainly went downhill because of lead poisoning. Despite the Teen Titans stomping him.
NOT forgetting was precisely my point. i know who they have beaten. the writers know who they have beaten. dc knows who they have beaten. and yet they still demonstrated repeatedly how each stacked up against prime. so, they jobbed to him or they (dc) wanted it firmly established he was beyond them, despite the respective histories of hal, kal, billy, and any number of heroes/villains who have had uber shining moments in their careers. i'll choose to accept the latter.
You choose not to believe in inverse ninja law, that's fine. But Superboy Prime was not more powerful than the various Trans, Skyfathers and Abstracts that the best of the high heralds have had to engage and defeat regularly throughout their careers. And that's just plainly obvious.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Its not.Not just my opinion.
Yeah, he actively resisted being powered by yellow sun radiation.
It is.
Clearly is.
After being depowered. His mind had an effect on his recovery but that was a clearly defined incident. How do you think that extrapolates to Prime/Conner when it's never been mentioned?
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
It is.Clearly is.
After being depowered. His mind had an effect on his recovery but that was a clearly defined incident. How do you think that extrapolates to Prime/Conner when it's never been mentioned?
Not really.
He actively resisted Dr. Light and Ray trying to power him up by blasting him with solar radiation which only gave him a tan. When he wanted to get his powers back, he immediately gained them back. Its clear that Johns wrote kryptonians' power dependent on their mind, even post-crisis kryptonians. But pre-crisis kryptonians who had this built in their basic power set weren't written like that when its clear that whenever Prime fought connor he was less confident and even fearful under the same writer? This cracks me up.
Originally posted by abhilegend
No.Not really.
He actively resisted Dr. Light and Ray trying to power him up by blasting him with solar radiation which only gave him a tan. When he wanted to get his powers back, he immediately gained them back. Its clear that Johns wrote kryptonians' power dependent on their mind, even post-crisis kryptonians. But pre-crisis kryptonians who had this built in their basic power set weren't written like that when its clear that whenever Prime fought connor he was less confident and even fearful under the same writer? This cracks me up.
Yes.
Yes.
Actually, I remember his powers gradually coming back and surprising him or something of the sort. I should probably re-read it since you almost certainly have a skewered interpretation. Post a scan of Conner weakening Prime by his presence or you'll have a hard time convincing anyone over this "theory". If it was the clear intention, you'd think we'd even get a hint.
Originally posted by ODG
Like carver9 said, it's not. The CIS/CIP-less stips only apply to Thor.And if Superman Prime ever once showed real fighting skill and acumen or creative use of his powers, being CIP/CIS-less might make a significant difference for him. He doesn't become a forum avatar; mods have made that clear multiple times. He just performs at his peak on-panel best without plot compromising him. He still is Superboy Prime. And he's a rather blusterous child. He doesn't get an artificial boost in intelligence or skill when CIP/CIS are turned off.
Think of Rhino. CIP/CIS off doesn't turn him into a Rhodes scholar with MMA training. It just means he's not especially stupider than usual due to plot circumstances. Or Yat led that charge and took the brunt of the blast. You'll choose to accept the latter despite Superboy and Bart Allen individually giving Superman Prime a hard time, every time. Despite rookie Ion Sodam Yat lasting an entire issue against him, whose fight mainly went downhill because of lead poisoning. Despite the Teen Titans stomping him.
You choose not to believe in inverse ninja law, that's fine. But Superboy Prime was not more powerful than the various Trans, Skyfathers and Abstracts that the best of the high heralds have had to engage and defeat regularly throughout their careers. And that's just plainly obvious.
i never claimed he was more powerful. i do think that's a little bit of abc logic though. imo it was clearly shown, and intended, that prime (minus the titans and connor's own shining moment--even connor has high feats) was meant to be above the guys in this tier. and you throw out the low feats for prime like the heralders don't have any. instead of choosing to use performances against OTHER characters to establish a comparison, i use the direct comparison shown when they battled prime. yeah, inverse ninja does happen at times, but it's overused in the forum imo. it's another term jobbing. i could claim 'shining hero' logic to explain how thor and the others have beaten guys way out of their weight class, but.....everyone has high feats, so, meh. alas, i know you won't change your stance, nor will i so i'll pass up the devolving spiral this conversation will become and say i get where you and the others are coming from, i just don't agree with the stance in this case.
Originally posted by leonidasThese DIRECT comparisons came exactly in the same comics where Conner and Bart were giving him the business (3x over each) and he took an entire issue to beat down Ion Sodam Yat. So it sounds like you're just ignoring depictions that compromise this amazing team-buster whose supposed to be untouchable even by high heralds. Except if you take everything he's ever done, both the good and the bad, you'd see he isn't that untouchable.
i never claimed he was more powerful. i do think that's a little bit of abc logic though. imo it was clearly shown, and intended, that prime (minus the titans and connor's own shining moment--even connor has high feats) was meant to be above the guys in this tier. and you throw out the low feats for prime like the heralders don't have any. instead of choosing to use performances against OTHER characters to establish a comparison, i use the direct comparison shown when they battled prime.
If Atom Smasher gave WWIII Black Adam the business 3x over throughout his team-busting rampage in World War III and 52, if Doc Sampson made WWH stutter and stumble 3x over throughout World War Hulk and World War Hulks, if B&T Thor had to spend an entire issue beating down Gamora in a 1v1 in Blood and Thunder... then I'd think considerably less of each of these team-busters. And that's only fair.
Somehow, Superboy Prime gets a pass. Even after he got definitively stomped on by the Teen Titans, despite being helped by a group of Superboy clones. Yeah, no. That's not how it works.
Originally posted by leonidasThe best of the high heralds can take down Trans, Skyfather and Abstract-level characters. These "shining hero" moments -- barring ridiculous plot device -- are basically the depictions of these characters that we're supposed to be paying attention to in these sorts of threads where CIP/CIS don't come into play on one side.
yeah, inverse ninja does happen at times, but it's overused in the forum imo. it's another term jobbing. i could claim 'shining hero' logic to explain how thor and the others have beaten guys way out of their weight class, but.....everyone has high feats, so, meh. alas, i know you won't change your stance, nor will i so i'll pass up the devolving spiral this conversation will become and say i get where you and the others are coming from, i just don't agree with the stance in this case.
So basically, what I'm doing is taking everything these characters have done into account on both sides, rather than ignoring the parts I don't like out of convenience.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Yes.Yes.
Actually, I remember his powers gradually coming back and surprising him or something of the sort. I should probably re-read it since you almost certainly have a skewered interpretation. Post a scan of Conner weakening Prime by his presence or you'll have a hard time convincing anyone over this "theory". If it was the clear intention, you'd think we'd even get a hint.
No.
No.
Then you don't know shit about anything. I'm not surprised though.
It was brainiac 5's plan all along. To ignore it would be ignoring his basic powerset.
Originally posted by leonidas👆
i never claimed he was more powerful. i do think that's a little bit of abc logic though. imo it was clearly shown, and intended, that prime (minus the titans and connor's own shining moment--even connor has high feats) was meant to be above the guys in this tier. and you throw out the low feats for prime like the heralders don't have any. instead of choosing to use performances against OTHER characters to establish a comparison, i use the direct comparison shown when they battled prime. yeah, inverse ninja does happen at times, but it's overused in the forum imo. it's another term jobbing. i could claim 'shining hero' logic to explain how thor and the others have beaten guys way out of their weight class, but.....everyone has high feats, so, meh. alas, i know you won't change your stance, nor will i so i'll pass up the devolving spiral this conversation will become and say i get where you and the others are coming from, i just don't agree with the stance in this case.
Just a reminder that if Thor attempts any tactic related to any red sun radiation then he's in danger of being instantly blitzed.
^ Didn't end too well for Sunboy.
Red Star tried it twice and it didn't end too well for him either.
And don't forget that (even though everyone was depowered) he was still beating the crap out of 2 Supermen under a red sun. In this case however he's only dealing with one herald level opponent.
Originally posted by Sundipped
Just a reminder that if Thor attempts any tactic related to any red sun radiation then he's in danger of being instantly blitzed.^ Didn't end too well for Sunboy.
Red Star tried it twice and it didn't end too well for him either.
And don't forget that (even though everyone was depowered) he was still beating the crap out of 2 Supermen under a red sun. In this case however he's only dealing with one herald level opponent.
Thor can open a portal directly into the heart of a Red Star:
http://s779.photobucket.com/user/R-O-G/media/Thor/Mjolnir133.jpg.html
Heck, Thor can teleport them both in a flash to the location. There's a lot of things Thor can do that he normally wouldn't with these stips. Prime's fast so he won't just sit around .
Not that Thor's comparable to Sun Boy anyways. Prime's not facing an old man or a Superman surrounded by kryptonite. Thor would rape his face if both were depowered btw.
^
IMO, Thor won't complete his whirling of Mjolnir in order to accomplish the feat. If Thor's not creating a force field with the whirling, then a HV blast should disrupt it.
If they teleport to the location "in a flash" then I don't see why Prime wouldn't blitz push Thor away from the scene like he was doing those planets. He'd be moving even faster with less weight. As we've seen, Prime doesn't just automatically drop to 0% power like that in the presence of a red sun or red sun radiation.
The main problem is that these things take time for the most part. It's like a hit or miss. Because of the time factor and the fact that I really can't see it being in character for Thor to open up the fight in that manner, it'd most likely be a miss. Overall this is just a bad matchup for Thor.
