Darth Bane (DoE) vs Anakin Skywalker (RotS)

The pain seems to strengthen him actually:

The pain had spread beyond his wrists. His shoulders felt like they were being ripped from his sockets from bearing the brunt of his weight. The deep gashes on his cheek burned, and he could feel the small rivulets of blood creeping along his face and down along the line of his jaw before dripping to the floor.

It's time.

He lifted his head to make sure the door to his cell was still closed; he wanted to catch his captors by surprise. Then he began to gather the power of the Force. An instant later the cuffs on his wrists and ankles shattered, exploding into a million pieces at a mere thought from Bane.

and:

Bane could feel the hard iron of his shackles cutting into his wrists, and a grim smile played across his lips. The pain indicated that the sedative was wearing off. The dull gray fog that had clouded his thoughts was clearing, leaving his mind sharp and focused.

I'm not seeing where the pain is strengthening him.

Even if its wearing off he's still sedated and its mentioned in the text as affecting his abilities. Its only mentioned much later that hes burned the effects off with the Force.

Also:

'The four guards up here had been alerted by the blaster shots being fired down below; unlike the first wave they weren't caught off guard by his violent entrance. Weapons already drawn, they opened fire.

But Bane's visceral, primal assault on the squad in the room below had fueled the cycle of rising emotion and mounting dark side power. He met their assault with an explosion of crackling energy that rippled out in a violet wave from his body at the center.

The incoming bolts were absorbed harmlessly into the ionic storm, the blasters themselves melted in the hands of their owners. The stench of burned flesh mingled with their screams of agony and the relentless, hammering song of the alarms, further feeding Bane's power.

Crouched on one knee, he clenched both fists then threw his arms out to either side, fingers splayed wide. The resulting Force wave pummeled the guards, sending them hurtling backward so they bounced off the walls hard enough to leave cracks in the stone.

Bane rose to his feet in the center of the carnage. Half a dozen bodies lay strewn about him, bones shattered, internal organs crushed into pulp. One choked out a pink, frothing spray with his final breath; all the others were still.'

Badass.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Cognus is extremely fast as Bane notes in her ambush, plus she has the unique power of blunting other ability to use the Force. This effect is apparantly quite potent given that Bane's lightning is said to have diminished in potency from 'incinerate completely' to merely kill in her presence. That it would diminish Banes speed is to be expected.

As for diminishing Bane's speed, weren't you arguing that Bane was using his full speed? Either way, it's your assumption without proof.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Besides, when are you talking about?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes he has. Why wouldn't he be using his speed in a duel? Zannah notes that he's faster than she can imagine in their fight, not to mention the other great examples of his speed being used in fights, appearing to wield a dozen lightsabers at once (to Zannah, a powerful Sith Lord), almost blitzing the Jedi Strike team, blitzing sith assassins, moving fast enough to be imperceptible by onlooking Sith etc.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Seriously, give me a reason why he would only be using that speed there and never else. Logically he would be using the same amount of speed in all other occasions. Your argument is like if I said 'why didn't Sidious use his "blitz 3 masters" speed in his fight with Yoda?' Obviously he was. The text just doesn't make mention of it. Its already established his speed, it doesn't need to do so again when its so flipping obvious that he's still be moving that fast.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't see how thats incompatable with what I said. In fact, my theory seems to be supported by the text. In their final fight Zannah notes that Bane is 'faster than she could ever have imagined', indicating that he's faster than he was when he attacked her in your quote, the 'appeared to wield a dozen lightsabers' quote.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Why wouldn't he be using his Force Speed to its fullest extent in a fight to the death duel with Zannah after 20 years of preparing and with the belief that she needs to beat him fair and square?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Indeed. Obviously he'd be more powerful and have superior Force Mastery as an older man.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Through being more powerful, not more skilled. Where is it noted that either of the prevailed through sheer skill?

As for Sidious, lol, he lands multiple hits while holding back.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Thats what I'm wondering. Why bring up Zannah At all?

Originally posted by Nephthys
She's more powerful than him and if she can defend against Bane she can surely defend against Maul, who is weaker and slower. Maul has failed to penetrate Kenobi's defense, so what makes you think he'll penetrate hers?

fyi

The Jedi Academy Training Manual does not distinguish between a nexus and a place strong with the dark side. They're referred to as "Dark Side Sites" in the text and a list of examples include known nexuses as the Valley of the Dark Lords and the cave on Dagobah.

That's a semantic argument down the drain.

Neph, kindly prove your claim that all examples of such things require conscious use?

No.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Being ''extremely fast'' is nothing in comparison to Maul. You'll have to do better than that.

The term "extremely fast" is ambiguous in nature. The individual in question could or could not be faster then Maul. Since Bane noted Cognus as being extremely fast then this suggests that she is extraordinarily fast even by Force-users standards unless I am missing something or the assertion is misleading.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
As for diminishing Bane's speed, weren't you arguing that Bane was using his full speed? Either way, it's your assumption without proof.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
huh

Authors doesn't feel the need to spoon-feed every technical aspect of a character engaged in a duel in a novel. At-least, many do not. Some things are realized on the basis of common sense.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Sure, because Yoda was as fast as he was, and he has feats to support this: Cognus and Zannah does not.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
To say that Bane's advantage in the duel doesn't ecplise anything shown by Anakin/Maul.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Being ''extremely fast'' is nothing in comparison to Maul. You'll have to do better than that.

As for diminishing Bane's speed, weren't you arguing that Bane was using his full speed? Either way, it's your assumption without proof.

No, I don't. You're claiming that the feat makes no sense given that she's not fast at all. I'm pointing out that she is fast. If she's able to track his movements she's clearly pretty damn fast. Even when drugged and sedated and after being tortured Bane moves as a blur. He moves so fast normally that even Zannah can't track his moves, seeing him as wielding a dozen lightsabers at once in their first fight in RoT. Obviously it isn't that he's so slow that a regular person can track his movements. Given that Cognus has Bane/Zannah-level Force potential, her being highly swift and perceptive is no leap in logic and seperates her from an ordinary person.

Well I don't know do I? Because you haven't mentioned when exactly you're talking about that Cognus tracks his movements. And no it isn't. As Legend said, she diminishes Force Use. Force Speed..... is a Force power. Why that wouldn't affect Banes speed too is beyond me.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
huh

When does Cognus track Bane and Zannah's movements?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Zannah's musing was because he had held back extremely much.

He wasn't holding back in that quote you claim is him at his fastest though. Obviously now that's not true given her surprise at his speed later.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Sure, because Yoda was as fast as he was, and he has feats to support this: Cognus and Zannah does not.

I fawking knew you were going to say that and completely miss my point. Yes, Yoda is as fast as he is. Just like Zannah. And really, what feats does Yoda have? The only one I can think of is him dodging 3 masters attacking him and that could just be extremely good precognition and skill. The reason why Yoda is considered to be Sidious' equal in speed is because he beat him in a lightsaber duel. Just like how we can consider Zannah more or less equal to Bane because she defended herself reasonably effectively against him. And Zannah does have the fact that she defended against Banes berserk attack in RoT, when Bane looked to be wielding 12 lightsabers at once. Don't act as if she's a slowpoke.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Same as above.

No it isn't. I want an answer. Why wouldn't Bane be using the same level of speed as he was in the opening chapter? The whole point of that scene is to demonstrate how good Bane is. Whats the point if he inexplicably holds back in the most important duel in his life, that he's been waiting for for 20 years? Bane would never ****ing hold back. Your point makes absolutely no sense. If you can't justify this inane discussion in your reply, don't bother. Because I won't.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
No.

Er, yes? 'Only through intense study and dedicated training could one become more proficient in harnessing the power of the Force.' It stands to reason that the more time you have to study the Force and train, the greater your command of the Force will be. Why would you be more powerful and skilled earlier in your life, when you know less and haven't harnessed your potential as much?

Originally posted by Intrepid37

As for Sidious, lol, he lands multiple hits while holding back.

Neither of that specifically denotes skill. I didn't deny their superiority, merely questioned whether it was a product of Force Strength (which is the fundamental factor in lightsaber combat) or skill.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
To say that Bane's advantage in the duel doesn't ecplise anything shown by Anakin/Maul.

I've never said that it eclipses Anakin. Maul though.....

Zannah's technique is such that it basically negates skill, because theres not really anything to do with skill that will let you bypass it. Therefore your point is meaningless.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
It's late now so I'll address this in some hours.

Ok, do so in your next reply.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It was a decisive fight; why would have Bane held back in any aspect (speed included) during it?

Authors doesn't feel the need to spoon-feed every technical aspect of a character engaged in a duel in a novel. At-least, many do not. Some things are realized on the basis of common sense.

Zannah fought Bane in fair manner. She being able to go toe-to-toe against Bane for a while is an indication of her extreme speed.

👆

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Bane's command of the Force is superior to both. He learned from several holocrons by DoE.

Well, not Anakins. When he got serious he made Dookus command of the Force look like a joke. He is the Chosen One after all.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well, not Anakins. When he got serious he made Dookus command of the Force look like a joke. He is the Chosen One after all.

I remember one of the Sith Lords in RoT lineage destroying much of the ancient Sith records/knowledge sources. Even Plagueis didn't knew as much about the Sith Lore as Bane did.

No, but neither is he so below Bane as to be a complete joke to him as he was to Zonakin. Anakin beat him by simply choosing to. Even I don't think Bane can beat Dooku that casually.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, but neither is he so below Bane as to be a complete joke to him as he was to Zonakin. Anakin beat him by simply choosing to. Even I don't think Bane can beat Dooku that casually.

My take on this is that Chosen One logic isn't good enough; Anakin still had lot to learn about the Force. He, however, acquired superior Jedi Guardian/Sith Warrior talents then Dooku; his significant raw power complemented these talents.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He, however, acquired superior Jedi Guardian/Sith Warrior talents then Dooku

Eeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrr?????

Dude, Anakin isn't superior anything to Dooku other than in power. What do you mean by this statement?

Looks like LeGenD is out for blood. Watch your back, Dooku!

Originally posted by Nephthys

Dude, Anakin isn't superior anything to Dooku other than in power.

He's a better skilled pilot than Dooku. And might be smarter. But that's about it. Anakin vs Dooku was clearly raw(chosen one) power vs decades of Force Mastery.

Smarter? Take it easy.

Dooku has a larger wang though.

You'd have to ask Janus. Or Rampant Ox.

How is that from Zannah's perspective if she's reacting and parrying to some degree. Wouldn't he be many times faster than Zannah could ever react to, yet an untrained Cognus could see them fight to some degree?

Wasn't she not at her peak either? Bane also had Orbalisks on at the time, right?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
A hint:

Bane would have been carved to ribbons had he tried to react to each move individually. (Star Wars: Darth Bane: Path of Destruction)

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What kind of an argument is this?

The term "extremely fast" is ambiguous in nature. The individual in question could or could not be faster then Maul. Since Bane noted Cognus as being extremely fast then this suggests that she is extraordinarily fast even by Force-users standards unless I am missing something or the assertion is misleading.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
OP stated that Cognus have special ability to negatively influence Force abilities of her opponents. Bane's speed would have been reduced in her presence.

Cognus has no feats and, at the point of which she saw Bane fight Zannah, not any training that I am aware of.

Prove Bane's speed was diminished.

It was a decisive fight; why would have Bane held back in any aspect (speed included) during it?

Authors doesn't feel the need to spoon-feed every technical aspect of a character engaged in a duel in a novel. At-least, many do not. Some things are realized on the basis of common sense.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Zannah fought Bane in fair manner. She being able to go toe-to-toe against Bane for a while is an indication of her extreme speed.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Bane's command of the Force is superior to both. He learned from several holocrons by DoE.