A more relevant comparison between Krayt and Luke is their brawl with Abeloth wherein both seemed to deal her comparable damage.
That said, it's silly to think that Krayt rivaling/surpassing Luke in a random non-combat aspect of the Force means that he's as strong as Luke. One might as well say that Bastila is more powerful than Revan because of her expertise in battle meditation or that Mace outclasses Yoda because of his superior aptitude for detecting shatterpoints.
Not really. Sidious's feats of telepathy shit all over Luke's. Does that mean he is beyond Luke in TK?
BTW, Correct me if I'm wrong, but Luke actually sent a message across the galaxy. Krayt "merely" sent ripples.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
That said, it's silly to think that Krayt rivaling/surpassing Luke in a random non-combat aspect of the Force means that he's as strong as Luke. One might as well say that Bastila is more powerful than Revan because of her expertise in battle meditation or that Mace outclasses Yoda because of his superior aptitude for detecting shatterpoints.
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Originally posted by ares834
Not really. Sidious's feats of telepathy shit all over Luke's. Does that mean he is beyond Luke in TK?BTW, Correct me if I'm wrong, but Luke actually sent a message across the galaxy. Krayt "merely" sent ripples.
No they don't. estahuh
It says that they felt his will 'dominant and seductive' in their minds.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's definitely an impressive feat in non-combat context. But I maintain that that does not automatically confer superiority over Dooku, let alone Luke.
Oh, he's not superior to Luke (save in a few specialities- his knowledge of healing is greater, obviously).
But, he's shown feats that require more raw power in the force than Dooku, and other feats that show more skill and knowledge of the force. Combat-wise, he's also a very dominanting presence in combat, with great skill in several very strong combat areas of the force (can bare-hands absorb lightning, can use high-level illusions, can block very strong TK, can dark-transfer kill), as well as being more experienced in sabers and being second to no-one in his era, despite there being a quantity of fighters with impressive saber skills in Legacy.
Sidious
Krayt killed a bunch of featless knights.
In all of maybe two seconds, mind, which is still impressive. If someone is surrounded on four sides by four attackers, who aren't caught off guard and are people in elite jobs, and then they're all just dead, then that is pretty badass.
Furthermore, he's fought with Celeste Morne-powered-by-talisman (to which Muur taunted she was no match for him), Cade Skywalker, and Darth Wyyrlok, and was untouched by any of them. Cade, unsurprisingly as the main character, has a crapton of saber feats against named characters and quantities of foes both, and it was only at the end of the series that he was able to put up a fight.
Krayt would have to put his hands on Dooku for Dark essence transfer to work, and how is he going to do that unless he first overpowers Dooku in combat, which is something I'm waiting on you guys to prove that he can do.
Let me point out many fights have someone getting hit by physical blows and then the fight continuing.
Dark transfer changes 'I get a single hand in' from 'annoyance blow' to 'immediately fatal.'
Also, aside from overpowering there is the illusion force power.
And Wyyrlok did not try to kill Krayt with illusions, he used his sorcery causing Krayt to "relive" the tragic moments of his past. And while doing so, he tried to kill Krayt with his saber.
Wyyrlok has killed with illusions themselves before, remember (against a Sith sorcery specialist), and yet his was still beaten.
Also, when did Krayt use illusions on anyone? I went through the comic this morning, and what Krayt did to Cade in their final battle did not seem like an illusion, it seemed more like Krayt was putting a vision in Cade's mind, trying to get Cade to embrace his anger, which he achieved after he had already weakened him with his dark essence transfer.
One, I'm not sure how 'making someone see your vision' is different from an illusion per se.
Two, look at the Wyyrlok vs Krayt fight. Krayt appears to be unarmed until he breaks Wyyrlok's illusions, at which point he suddenly has both of his blades in hand.
Wyyrlok, btw, is someone who I'd say is overall around Dooku level. Powerful in the force, powerful in sabers, and generally pretty badass, but can't quite beat the boss.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's definitely an impressive feat in non-combat context. But I maintain that that does not automatically confer superiority over Dooku, let alone Luke.Out of curiosity, how dispersed were these Sith?
Dispersed...? Well, they largely trained on one planet for much of a century with some covert expeditions for various specific goal, then they went and deployed all over the galaxy when they revealed themselves, though retrained two main bases on Korriban and the Sith/Jedi Temple on Coruscant.
As a lightsaber duelist, as A'sharad Hett he did lose to Kenobi originally, however, he put up a solid fight. After his turn to the Dark Side and his training from Vegere and Xoxxan I'm positive he's increased marginally. At this time he was able to slay 4 Imperial Knights in seconds. And he again increases after he rids himself of the Vong Infestations. I would say he's Dooku tier from all of that, considering Kenobi shouldn't be leagues below Dooku in terms of lightsaber ability.
With the Force, Krayt has an obvious advantage. With Telekinesis, he's shown capability to discipline Darth Nihl, and blast through columns in the Sith Temple. Dooku's feats eclipse these. However, Krayt also shows proficiency with Force Lightning, being able to crumble pillars with it, kill rackgoul monsters, and match Darth Wyyrlock's lightning, which has shown the ability to kill. This eclipses Dooku's lightning feats. Telepathically, Krayt has resisted Darth Wyyrlock's illusions, that of which matched Sith Lord Darth Andeddu's (Which is extremely impressive.) and he's send a ripple through the Force touching all Dark Siders in the galaxy. He's also used Illusional powers against Cade, which seem to be pretty effective in their final battle. Again he eclipses Dooku. Finally, Krayt can see shatterpoint and use Dark Transfer, allowing him to heal FATAL injuries as long as he's still conscious. Meaning if Dooku stabs him, he can heal it. This ability also means if he can touch Dooku with his hands, the battle is over. Krayt eclipses Dooku with the Force.
All Out--Krayt has a strong advantage over Dooku in his prime. Obviously this isn't a stomp--But Dooku's only advantages are in pure skill and Telekinesis. When it comes to Force Lightning, Telepathic Ability, and Dark Transfer--Krayt has it all. Krayt is one of the most powerful Sith Lords imo.
Originally posted by Q99
In all of maybe two seconds, mind, which is still impressive. If someone is surrounded on four sides by four attackers, who aren't caught off guard and are people in elite jobs, and then they're all just dead, then that is pretty badass.
It's very impressive, I'm not denying that, but I wouldn't put Krayt above Dooku in sabers based on that showing, because the knights he killed were featless. I'd say fighting Ventress and two other nightsisters while drugged and blind, is at least comparable, especially considering that Ventress is practically Kenobi's equal in saber combat and is among the best saber duelists in the prime of the jedi order.
Not to mention Dooku has also fought evenly with Windu, who was second to Yoda in the jedi order.
Originally posted by Q99
Let me point out many fights have someone getting hit by physical blows and then the fight continuing.Dark transfer changes 'I get a single hand in' from 'annoyance blow' to 'immediately fatal.'
Are you suggesting that any physical contact with Krayt results in an instant death? If so, can you post a scan of this happening? Because in his final fight with Cade, it seems as though Krayt had to first gather energy throughout his body and release it through his hands.
Plagueis once boiled the blood of a prophetess, killing her just by touching her hands, but I wouldn't suggest that he can instantly kill an opponent just by landing a physical blow during combat.
Originally posted by Q99
One, I'm not sure how 'making someone see your vision' is different from an illusion per se.
I've always thought of force illusions as what Luke did in DE when he made a replica of himself, tricking Leia in believing it was really him. What Krayt did to Cade seemed more like he put Cade in a dream-like state, similar to Anakin's dreams/force-visions of Padme's death while sleeping, as Cade was barely even conscious and on the verge of death. There is nothing to suggest he can do the same to a fully conscious and prepared Dooku mid-combat.
Originally posted by Q99
Wyyrlok, btw, is someone who I'd say is overall around Dooku level. Powerful in the force, powerful in sabers, and generally pretty badass, but can't quite beat the boss.
Well, in that case, Krayt and Wyyrlok seemed to be fighting as near equals until Wyyrlok gained the upper hand by putting Krayt in a trance, causing him to 'relive' the tragic moments of his past. It seems as though Krayt's victory over Wyyrlok had a lot to do with Wyyrlok underestimating him: Wyyrlok stands over Krayt seemingly savoring his short lived advantage over him, giving Krayt a lengthy speech on his knowledge of Krayt's past, and then started bragging about how powerful he was and telling Krayt that he was not as powerful as he believed.