Originally posted by Nephthys
You mean like if someone was.... blunting....... their.......... powers? 😮And how do you suggest we account for that in threads?
You'll notice I didn't confine my remarks to just the Jedi at the time. What's more, the only ability that has been identified as weakened by Sidious was Jedi perception; nowhere to my knowledge has their telekinesis, speed, or fighting prowess been noted to be in decline.
Neb's argument stupidly assumes that artistic license and stylistic variance is reflective of an intentional choice by the authorities at LFL to depict the movie era as pedestrian. Yet Lucas has referred to the prequels as the golden age of Jedi combat... This is irreconcilable with the idea that Neb's persistent mantra "lol PT JEDI sux0rz!" in that one can't be simultaneously better than others and worse than others in the same aspect.
Now while I'm not opposed to the idea that other characters rival or surpass movie!characters by dint of prodigious talent or refined skill, these are exceptions - not the rule.
His argument is simply well-worded garbage from start to finish.
And to answer your question, it's always been a matter of feats versus accolades. The dead Project Holocron was a successful attempt to academically examine these variances and should probably be resurrected if we want to pursue this line of inquiry.
Personally, I rank Revan above Dooku despite the latter's greater number of impressive feats. Likewise, I'd rank Maul extremely high despite a fewer number of impressive feats due to the accolades surrounding him. I'm also very generous with the lesser known Council Masters compared to the infinitely more exposed Obi-Wan. Feat-to-feat, Starkiller wastes Vitiate in a fight even though I really don't think he necessarily would. Starkiller's raw might is exceptional, but Vitiate is the heir to a millennium of training and tradition, exploring the Force in ways only surpassed by Sidious.
In theory, LegeND and I agree on looking at "the bigger picture."
His argument is simply well-worded garbage from start to finish.
In the words of Jack Nicholson, "Why So Serious?" 😐
Reading through your post I don't think we even disagree in that many areas and I'm sure you would genuinely agree that it would be silly to automatically scale down every feat we see in the EU just because you so strongly oppose the idea of the movie era characters being outclassed by select individuals scattered throughout history. I think we can be reasonable and discuss when a particular feat is likely a natural and realistic extension of the narrative, or rather a product of certain stylistic choices or interpretation, and it's not right to simply assume the latter.
I'm also not strongly against the idea of the PT era Jedi necessarily being the best; if you asked for my opinion I personally believe it's more likely that the NSW era Jedi were the most impressive from a combat standpoint but I really don't feel that strongly about it either way. What I do strongly oppose however is the idea that George truly declared the PT Jedi to be the Jedi at the height of their powers and combat prowess and if someone was able to provide the quote (or rather a link to the interview that I believe it comes from) I'd be happy to elaborate.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
You'll notice I didn't confine my remarks to just the Jedi at the time. What's more, the only ability that has been identified as weakened by Sidious was Jedi perception; nowhere to my knowledge has their telekinesis, speed, or fighting prowess been noted to be in decline.
Windu notes that their 'ability to use the Force has diminished.' mmm
BLUH BLUH.
I recall someone (Borbarad? Neb?) had a good argument that their powers were flat out diminished. If not because of Sidious ****ing everyone over with his crazy Sithisis rituals then because of the Force being literally shifted in the darksides favor.
**** if I can recall where that was though.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Shatterpoint can be useful, but it has never been a guaranteed win and we simply can't say that Mace would find a shatterpoint in every duel he fights.And that's acting as if he'd exploit it.
Still, if two foes are otherwise close, and one has shatterpoints and the other doesn't, things are more likely to break in their favor than vice-versa.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
I'd like the proof that the ship is bigger than the stones or platforms because the picture certainly doesn't indicate so.
From the perspective, it's a distance back, noticeably taller than Cade, and much longer than it was tall. That's significantly bigger than the stones.
Krayt has never beaten anyone of Mace's/Dooku's caliber, has he?
Abeloth.
Krayt has notably not lost to anyone of that caliber either, and Dooku has.
And, Wyyrlok or Cade can be argued to be that general level as well.
I disagree. From the look of it, A'Sharad held his own but ultimately lost his arm to Kenobi. Ventress at least disarmed Kenobi in the CW movie and in Withces of the Mist, Dooku quickly send her on the retreat.
But that was against a less-experienced Kenobi. This is against Kenobi who beat Anakin (and going by the Clone Wars comics, Anakin and Kenobi did both surpass Ventress by the end of the war, fairly solidly). This is Kenobi defending baby Luke and 100% serious.
I find it odd to conclude that Krayt is more skilled when he's never beaten anyone that indicates so.
He's beaten multiple very powerful foes. If you only count ones that indicate so as from the Clone Wars, you'd come to that conclusion regardless of their actual power.
Sure, but Dooku's experience didn't help him against Anakin. Don't see why Krayt's would against Dooku.
Krayt's experience gap was bigger than Dooku's experience gap.
Additionally, Dooku had experience but raw power, which Anakin had significantly more of, was telling. If they were even close in power Dooku would win against Anakin. Dooku is arguably at a power disadvantage here, let alone a power advantage of the size that Anakin had.
I don't see how he is stronger in the force. Dooku's feats seem superior.
They look smaller to me. And in fewer areas.
Originally posted by Q99
From the perspective, it's a distance back, noticeably taller than Cade, and much longer than it was tall. That's significantly bigger than the stones.
It doesn't seem bigger than the starship Opress shoved off in the same episode where Dooku choked him rather casually.
Originally posted by Q99
Krayt has notably not lost to anyone of that caliber either, and Dooku has.
Originally posted by Q99
And, Wyyrlok or Cade can be argued to be that general level as well.
Originally posted by Q99
But that was[against a less-experienced Kenobi. This is against Kenobi who beat Anakin (and going by the Clone Wars comics, Anakin and Kenobi did both surpass Ventress by the end of the war, fairly solidly). This is Kenobi defending baby Luke and 100% serious.
How many yers does Kenobi's fight with A'Sharad Hett take place before ANH?
Originally posted by Q99
He's beaten multiple very powerful foes. If you only count ones that indicate so as from the Clone Wars, you'd come to that conclusion regardless of their actual power.
Originally posted by Q99
Krayt's experience gap was bigger than Dooku's experience gap.
Originally posted by Q99
Additionally, Dooku had experience but raw power, which Anakin had significantly more of, was telling. If they were even close in power Dooku would win against Anakin. Dooku is arguably at a power disadvantage here, let alone a power advantage of the size that Anakin had.
Originally posted by Q99
They look smaller to me. And in fewer areas.
Dooku also shows superiority over Savage twice in terms of power, and Savage has obliterated droids and shoved off starships.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Extremely sensible conjecture imo. The Force being slanted away from the light should logically affect the lightsiders more than diminished perceptions.
The available evidence has confined the weakness to perception. Which makes sense, since Lucas says the PT is the golden age of the Jedi... It would hardly be so if they were weaker martially.
Intrepid
Let's not overrate the feat. You said yourself it was a ''small starship'' and that's what it looks like.It doesn't seem bigger than the starship Opress shoved off in the same episode where Dooku choked him rather casually.
Oh yes, that reminds me another thing- Opress shoved the ship. Cade threw it, fast enough to be used as a projectile and a good distance.
That's a lot more kinetic energy than a simple lift or shove.
Sure, but nothing indicates he'd do better than Dooku.
There's nothing that'd indicate Dooku'd do better than him, or the same level.
Once Krayt becomes Krayt, no-one has ever gotten the upper hand, pushed him back, or whatever in a lightsaber duel, period.
And he's got the experience for him, and we know his base level as A'Sharad was good before he got two major, major upgrades.
Based on what?
Based on Wyyrlok overcoming a Dark Lord of great power easily. Based on Cade being a Skywalker with big force feats who gets continually better with a saber as time goes on, based on him being surrounded by people with dozens of Jedi/Sith kills and being noticeably stronger than them.
So what? Ventress is below Obi-Wan, sure, but so was A'Sharad Hett, and Dooku regularly schools Ventress.
Hett was closer to Obi-Wan at his best and most serious than Ventress was to him by the end of the war.
How many yers does Kenobi's fight with A'Sharad Hett take place before ANH?
17 years, just two after RotS.
Those foes doesn't seem to be on Dooku's level.
Exactly, even if you hear about someone trashing a powerful Dark Lord of the Old Empire, you just say it doesn't seem so in vague terms.
In terms of abilities shown, Krayt's got more, and some of the others of the era are very impressive too, but by using the word 'seem' you get around acknowledging them.
We can refer to Dooku's fight with Yoda if you want to. Do you think Yoda is better because of skill and speed or because of experience?
His experience is why he's more skilled.
What has Krayt done implying he's got more raw power than Anakin?
I think you're missing the argument.
Dooku > Anakin in skill due to his experience, but Anakin was >> Dooku in power.
You used the Anakin vs Dooku fight as an example of how more experience doesn't mean a win.
Except where Anakin was able to counter experience with power, Dooku is <= Krayt in power, he's got no edge there and probably a disadvantage.
If Krayt has the experience edge, and isn't disadvantaged in power, what area is Dooku supposed to be making up in the edge with?
Kenobi has moved Durge's ship and he was ragdolled by Dooku.
Yea, 'moved,' not 'thrown far to hit someone.'
Dooku also shows superiority over Savage twice in terms of power, and Savage has obliterated droids and shoved off starships.
And Cade has shown superior to Talon, who can do This.
Savage couldn't do the ship throw, the 'protect against a giant explosion,' nor could he do what Talon did.
Cade's TK is much above Savage (heck, Talon's TK is above Savage, so you've got a whole Savage < Talon < Cade < Krayt chain of superiority going on here), so throwing Savage around to try and boost Dooku doesn't fly, the TK feats in legacy are the bigger and more impressive.
