Originally posted by noitseuq
Well I don't believe a question of style has ever been a prevalent defense regarding Yoda's placement in the power hierarchy of Force Users in the first place, presently or historically, among the majority and more significant members of this forum. For the most part I am referring to people who fully take into consideration the greater feats we've seen performed in canon and still wish to argue that what Yoda performs is comparatively impressive which is largely what I disagree with.I also don't believe you can claim that fluctuations in power levels are always a product of differences in style; while there are cases where the creators have basically made that clear, such as The Force Unleashed or the original Clone Wars cartoons, if you wish to look at Bane as an example not only is he explored within a medium that lends itself to more accurate, realistic interpretations given its detailed and literal nature (whereas animation and comic books have a strong predisposition for visual exaggerations and inaccuracies and are usually marketed towards a younger audience that don't put as much thought into narrative realism and consistency) but his demonstrations of power make complete sense within the wider context of the narrative with regards to his character, his role and his progression. Bane's story was essentially the story of a prophesied being, an instrument of change destined for big things that clearly relied on both his intellect and his exceptional power to proceed with his plans, and everything that he performed was consistent with the events and descriptions found in the novel (many of which had already been an established part of canon for years). I believe you would have a much harder case arguing that Bane's power level was more a matter of style rather than the creative vision Drew Karpyshyn had for the story he was telling (bare in mind I'm limiting these points to PoD as I have yet to read DoE and RoT isn't entirely).
The films do not preclude the possibility that there could have existed vastly greater Force Users throughout history than the ones we are presented with in the films and in the face of strong evidence that would suggest as much I don't think it's an entirely inaccurate viewpoint.
In any event I don't think people necessarily disagree that these discrepancies largely are owing to the fact that there are clearly differences in style; for the most part I believe people would consider stuff like TFU to be widely exaggerated but that doesn't prevent them from creating threads with Galen Marek and considering the full scope of what he displayed in those games. I think it's a case where people would rather not limit these hypothetical scenarios by keeping everything consistent with canon and it's not something I necessarily disagree with and would probably have a slightly different opinion if a thread were specifically addressing CW Yoda or DE Sidious or something, but the truth is that there's only really been a universal use of the Yoda character in these forums, and that character will in general terms always be limited by his lower showings in the highest form of canon, and by comparison he does not compare to the higher end combatants. And while his showings in the Eu have been significantly greater they still do not stack up with the kinds of things we've seen performed by other characters in the EU so i wouldn't suggest that his CW cartoon incarnation be included among their number either.
And lastly now you're just speaking in crazy hypotheticals, GL did not possess the creative brilliance and masterful storytelling to create a character as marvelously fabulous as Bane and chances are that if he wanted to put the character in one of his movies, Drew simply wouldn't allow it.
I wouldn't have a hard time at all, actually. Only a moron would subscribe to the outrageously farfetched notion that Force users, on an individual and collective level, spontaneously and without reason dropped multiple levels of magnitude during the events of the six films. Perhaps if virtually all receptacles of Force knowledge vanished alongside the outbreak of a galaxywide midi-chlorian-munching nanovirus which faded away post-Endor.
'Til that retcon comes along, I'm going to stick with the much more reasonable and observed explanation: Stylistic differences.
Originally posted by steveholt956
Krayt had no equals during his time, in both the force or saber combat. Cade is the only one who comes close, maybe Wyyrlok. Still not seeing how Dooku matches up.
So what? In an era with far more powerhouses and the Jedi Order in its golden age, Dooku was on top. Only perhaps Mace Windu could fight him on even ground, and only Yoda and Sidious were his outright superiors, both of whom are Krayt's superiors.
Originally posted by steveholt956
Finally, I didn't say I was objective in this case either. I certainly don't care much for the PT era. But at least I don't operate under the guise of objectivity in this thread. That would be you.
No wonder you're making the idiotic claim that Krayt would stomp Dooku. lol
Originally posted by Q99
He's defended against stronger TK than Dooku's
Cade's TK is definitely not stronger than Dooku's. Cade's best TK feat that I'm aware of is throwing a small star ship. It is impressive, but he did so in what seemed to be a fit of rage, similar to how Ventress, in a fit of rage, managed to force choke and levitate Obi Wan and Anakin at the same time.
Majority of Dooku's displayed TK feats were done very casually, such as lifting several huge monoliths simultaneously, collapsing cave ceilings, and then there's this...
Originally posted by Q99
and can absorb lightning.
Dooku can block and redirect lightning with his hands as well. I'm pretty sure you knew that though.
Originally posted by Q99
As for offense, I will note his Force Drain was highly effective against Abeloth, with is nothing to laugh at.
Dooku and Krayt wouldn't be fighting in some spiritual force imbued world as essences, they'd be fighting in the physical world armed with their sabers, so I doubt he'd rush at Dooku, sticking his hands through him to absorb his energy as he did with Abeloth.
Besides, Dooku was immune to the effects of the dark reaper, which is a force draining device.
Originally posted by Q99
But, Krayt has gone up against people with very high feats and outmatched them
So has Dooku.
BTW, what are you arguing exactly? Are you suggesting that Krayt is far superior to Dooku? Because you said you'd rank Dooku on Wyyrlok's level. And combat-wise, Krayt and Wyyrlok seemed to be fighting pretty evenly, as neither of them could gain an advantage over the other until Wyyrlok put Krayt in a trance.
I'm done with this discussion. They both seem to be about even to me, and a fight between them can go either way, IMO, but there will definitely be no stomping on either side.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Questioning the caliber of Krayt and Dooku's respective opponents is a legitimate line of inquiry. Both sides have offered pertinent points: both Dooku's Nightsisters and Krayt's Imperial Knights are presently featless. Neither are without some measure of repute: Karis and Naa'leth were endorsed by Talzin as the greatest warriors of the Nightsister clan and the Imperial Knights, as protectors of the galactic sovereign, are likely to be highly trained warriors.
But Ventress has many notable feats, and is an Obi Wan level saber duelist, being among the very best of her era.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm more familiar with Dooku's brawl with the Nightsisters than Krayt's slaughter of the Knights, but I'm not instinctively impressed by one over the other: Krayt killed them fairly quickly whereas Dooku's was a more protracted struggle. On the other hand, the Count was not in full command of his faculties whereas Krayt presumably was.
My thoughts exactly. That's why I'm hesitant to put one over the other in sabers.
I'm not claiming that Dooku is stomping Krayt and neither is S66. Krayt does seem to be a scholar and a master of the dark side, moreso than Dooku, and while blocking telekinetic powers which are powerful enough to throw small ships and block explosions are impressive, feat-to-feat, Dooku edges it in my opinion. Collapsing cave ceilings, bringing down metal platforms, levitation of multiple big stones and outright dominance of some of the most powerful Jedi and Sith in his era just seems better than what Krayt has done.
Either way, I doubt that either would end the fight through Force attacks.
The main reason I give it to Dooku is because of his skill with a saber. Holding his own against Yoda and Mace plus defeating Ventress, Grievous, Bulq, Vos, Tholme, Obi-Wan, Anakin etc not to mention his accolades and mastery of Form II seems above what Krayt has done.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I wouldn't have a hard time at all, actually. Only a moron would subscribe to the outrageously farfetched notion that Force users, on an individual and collective level, spontaneously and without reason dropped multiple levels of magnitude during the events of the six films. Perhaps if virtually all receptacles of Force knowledge vanished alongside the outbreak of a galaxywide midi-chlorian-munching nanovirus which faded away post-Endor.'Til that retcon comes along, I'm going to stick with the much more reasonable and observed explanation: Stylistic differences.
The movies explore a tiny period within a much vaster history of the galaxy, I'm not sure why you're so against the possibility of there being moments where the Jedi and Sith as orders (not what I'm claiming btw) or even select individuals may have reached vastly superior heights to what we were shown in the movies. The movies at the end of the day are simply small sample sizes, it would be silly to just assume that they were truly representative of the entirety of history. The only time we're led to believe [by the movies or other G-Canon sources] that the movies are portraying a particularly (in the truly grand scheme of things) powerful Force User would be Anakin as the Chosen One who can be considered to not have reached anywhere near his full potential, so we have little reason to believe that the movies were necessarily a high point of what Jedi and Sith can do, it's only C-Canon source which might seem to suggest as much which has the exact same authority as the other C-Canon sources that you wish to dismiss.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I wouldn't have a hard time at all, actually. Only a moron would subscribe to the outrageously farfetched notion that Force users, on an individual and collective level, spontaneously and without reason dropped multiple levels of magnitude during the events of the six films. Perhaps if virtually all receptacles of Force knowledge vanished alongside the outbreak of a galaxywide midi-chlorian-munching nanovirus which faded away post-Endor.
You mean like if someone was.... blunting....... their.......... powers? 😮
Originally posted by The_Tempest
'Til that retcon comes along, I'm going to stick with the much more reasonable and observed explanation: Stylistic differences.
And how do you suggest we account for that in threads?
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Besides, Dooku was immune to the effects of the dark reaper, which is a force draining device.
Here: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Reaper
The Dark Reaper device was never operating at its proper strength during the Clone Wars era; it was broken and shattered with some parts functioning. These parts were still effective to certain degree but Ulic Qel Droma helped Anakin Skywalker to cope with the harvester component for a while.
I am not familiar with how Dooku coped with this device but I assume that it wouldn't be black and white scenario either (since you have a history of misrepresenting information when it suites you).
If the device would have been operating in its full power and form like it did when it was originally constructed, neither Anakin and nor Dooku would have stood a chance against it. They are not "immune" to Force Drain; just know how to defend against it to a certain level.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
ollapsing cave ceilings, bringing down metal platforms, levitation of multiple big stones
None of those involve as much force as the ship feat. The ship is bigger than the stones or platforms, and cave ceilings you only need to disrupt the structure.
The main reason I give it to Dooku is because of his skill with a saber. Holding his own against Yoda and Mace plus defeating Ventress, Grievous, Bulq, Vos, Tholme, Obi-Wan, Anakin etc not to mention his accolades and mastery of Form II seems above what Krayt has done.
And I'd rate Krayt's saber feats as certainly no lower. Even as A'Sharad he wasn't far behind the top (above several on that list), and he's gotten numerous upgrades in both skill and power since then.
There is a lack of Yoda or Mace to test himself against sure, but it seems odd to conclude that one person is weaker because he never meets his match, compared to another person who has met his against powerful foes.
Aside from pure feats, there's simply superior experience as well as being stronger in the force (which gives an advantage in duels) and having force-powers that aid in duels (shatterpoint, which tells one when there's a weakness/opportunity to exploit).
I would like to point out that experienced Force-users can perceive fault-lines in inanimate objects and exploit them at their weakest aspects.
A talented force-user can jam control systems of a starship causing it to go haywire and/or run of-course. The continuous hand gesture doesn't necessarily imply that the Force-user is using his/her whole raw power to perform feats of such a scale.
The word "tricks" are often used for a reason.
Analogy: Vader ruptured a platform from its foundation (a narrow point where it was attached to a bigger structure), causing it to collapse on Starkiller's position. That narrow point was the part of this platform (a weakness) which Vader exploited with his power. The feat on the whole looks way more impressive then it is on technical level.
Dooku also have a similar demonstration.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I would like to point out that experienced Force-users can perceive fault-lines in inanimate objects and exploit them at their weakest aspects.A talented force-user can jam control systems of a starship causing it to go haywire and/or run of-course. The continuous hand gesture doesn't necessarily imply that the Force-user is using his/her whole raw power to perform feats of such a scale.
The word "tricks" are often used for a reason.
Sure, but in Cade's case, he picked up a wrecked ship out of a swamp and threw it. It certainly wasn't under it's own power, it had no power.
Originally posted by Q99
Sure, but in Cade's case, he picked up a wrecked ship out of a swamp and threw it. It certainly wasn't under it's own power, it had no power.
Talented Force-users can lift and hurl objects (weighing several tons) with their own power at minimum.
Sometimes, a feat (of small scale) is far more difficult to perform then a feat (of sheer impressive scale).
For example:
Blocking and absorbing Sith lightning with bare hands is a difficult feat for even the most powerful Jedi of the mythos as per canon. This feat might require much more power then lifting a small starship.
Originally posted by Q99
None of those involve as much force as the ship feat. The ship is bigger than the stones or platforms, and cave ceilings you only need to disrupt the structure.
Does it have a model number?
Originally posted by Q99
And I'd rate Krayt's saber feats as certainly no lower.
Originally posted by Q99
Even as A'Sharad he wasn't far behind the top (above several on that list), and he's gotten numerous upgrades in both skill and power since then.
Originally posted by Q99
There is a lack of Yoda or Mace to test himself against sure, but it seems odd to conclude that one person is weaker because he never meets his match, compared to another person who has met his against powerful foes.
Originally posted by Q99
Aside from pure feats, there's simply superior experience as well as being stronger in the force (which gives an advantage in duels) and having force-powers that aid in duels (shatterpoint, which tells one when there's a weakness/opportunity to exploit).
I don't see how he is stronger in the force. Dooku's feats seem superior.
Shatterpoint depends on circumstances, and even then, Dooku is portrayed as an equal with Mace who can also use shatterpoint.