Its amusing that you're still stalking :T
Originally posted by ScreamPasteNot just the slashing, but the strength thats needed. No concrete numbers, but the giant in Nephs scans was lifting a ~400 ton gate. Ichigo casually blocked him with Shikai strength, he's stronger with Bankai. Even with this strength he was barely blocking Gin's strikes. By scaling GG would be between Shikai and Bankai.
Whoa whoa whoa. I think you're overselling Gin's building cut feat. It's nice and all but a reasonably sharp sword that wouldn't break at that weight could pretty much do what he did under it's own power. The impressive aspect is the ease with which he does it. (And also the great, aching physics butthurt it gives me that he doesn't fall over, air walking be damned.) If you put a sword of similar size in Ganon's hands those buildings would be going down.
I have a dislike for calling 'cutting things in half' '____ level destruction', because it paints a more impressive picture than what's going on. Gin did not completely annihilate them or shatter them, he cut them in half. It takes more force to smash a brick of butter than bisect it with a knife. uhuh If we accept that the magic armour is effective against Ganon, then I see no reason it would not be effective against Gin.
Yeah, Gin took a very powerful attack with little harm, I don't know that it was stronger than Midna's attack, but even so, he was damaged if only slightly, Ganon was completely unscratched. shrug Which makes it hard to truly quantify Ganon's durability and how much the sword can bypass, but leaves me comfortable in saying it could delimb or impale Gin should the blade land there.
So the swords can be damaged by each other? Theoretically Link could lop pieces of it off with the MS?Gin compared to Ganondorf as Link fought him:
Gin's strength relative to Ganondorf is unknown, either could have cut those buildings up.
He has 'similar' durability, I'm leaning to less since Ganon shrugged that shit off and we don't know how much it takes to damage him, with significantly less damage soak.
Ganondorf's lightning time combat speed, and able to easily avoid all of OoT/WW Link's arrows or block them and can teleport just like Gin can.
Gin has much greater range because of his Boner Sword, and has more mobility than Link does, but he doesn't want to be hit with a magic arrow, and it's seeming likely the Master Sword will allow Link to chop up pieces of his zanpakuto (sp?)Gin compared to WW Link:
Gin is stronger physically, but Link has defenses like his shield, sword, and the magic armour, and the gap doesn't seem all that wide.
Link's weapon is more deadly and forces a direct confrontation, can likely chop up pieces of Gin's weapon.
Gin is far more mobile, and can likely dodge most of Link's ranged attacks (I doubt all)
Durability is Gin's, but it doesn't really matter since the MS should overcome that.So advantages are:
Gin: Strength, mobility/movement speed, range.
WW Link: Weaponry, versatility (defenses, magic), and seemingly combat speed.
He also has the Deku Leaf.
Durability's moot, Gin can hurt Link and Link's sword can hurt Gin, but Link has the magic armour and shield so he's scoring more defensive points.
This is my current assessment of things. If you have moar Gin scans and you can get him a solid combat speed advantage I'd cede he probably takes majority.
Ichigo's strength is still below the destructive force of his BladeBeams. Knowing that GG=e9 and Midna=e10, Ichigo's attack would be between these two with his blasts passing Midna's. Sure Gin didn't 100% tank it, but only taking minor damage is close enough to Dorf.
Only due to Ichigo's spiritual connection to his sword being highly sub-standard at that moment. No longer happened once he had a chat with it.
Mostly agree with the summing up comparisons there. Gin's strength is above Dorf's making a change in that and to how much the M.Armor (and Shield?) can take, also being Ma10 is enough speed to evade any of Link's ranged attacks. If the MS hits Gin it'll be as fatal as Gin's hitting Link, so I wouldnt give Link an advantage in weaponry.
The only want to defeat Gin is to have the speed to keep up with his range, then fight him in cqc. Link's place here comes down to two things;
-If his M.Armor can save him from Gin's attacks, the strength difference would't mean much.
-If Dorf has lightning speed, Link's reactions can keep up with Gin's assault and get in close.
This leads to three 'What If' outcomes;
-If both apply then Gin's strength, use of range and speed would be rendered moot, meaning he'd have to work hard to damage Link while Link only needs a few direct hits which is possible with his speed.
-If only one of these, then Link would be a challenge but could still be either danced around (If M.Armor only) or taken out quickly (If Lightning reactions only).
-If none apply, then Gin's strength, range and speed would overwhelm WWLink.
Not just the slashing, but the strength thats needed. No concrete numbers, but the giant in Nephs scans was lifting a ~400 ton gate. Ichigo casually blocked him with Shikai strength, he's stronger with Bankai. Even with this strength he was barely blocking Gin's strikes. By scaling GG would be between Shikai and Bankai.What feat puts Bankai Ichigo that far removed from a 400 ton feat? That is a freaking huge leap, man. haermm
Knowing that GG=e9 and Midna=e10, Ichigo's attack would be between these two with his blasts passing Midna's. Sure Gin didn't 100% tank it, but only taking minor damage is close enough to Dorf.I have a feeling we're gonna need to compare notes again. mmm Can you show me how destructive the getsuga Gin was hit with actually was? With an example from that fight or one before it? I'm under the impression this is one of those mangas where the protagonist constantly improves in power, so I'm not sure later showings would be admissible on this. If I'm wrong and power is consistent though, correct me.
Gin's strength is above Dorf's
This leads to three 'What If' outcomes;
-If both apply then Gin's strength, use of range and speed would be rendered moot, meaning he'd have to work hard to damage Link while Link only needs a few direct hits which is possible with his speed.
-If only one of these, then Link would be a challenge but could still be either danced around (If M.Armor only) or taken out quickly (If Lightning reactions only).
-If none apply, then Gin's strength, range and speed would overwhelm WWLink.
So to simplify:
If both apply WW Link wins.
If only one Gin wins, but it's a fight.
If neither, Gin stomps.
If Link properly utilizes the Deku Leaf he stomps.
We agree here?
Originally posted by ScreamPasteAs Shikai he 'cannot' match Captain Petals, in the same way the giant can't match him. Ichigo covers this strength with Bankai. Will have to look for other feats, but so far this is only to match or beat Dorf's strength. The result won't be too far off either way.
What feat puts Bankai Ichigo that far removed from a 400 ton feat? That is a freaking huge leap, man. haermm
Giants strength < Shikai < Post-training Shikai < Bankai < Gin.
(J-wise the Giant uses around e8 J to GG's at most e9)
Originally posted by ScreamPasteThe protag gets stronger but we don't really see any feat on his bankai power later on (later on he uses his Hollow/demon powers in unison, so we dont see as much). We know that his pre-bankai training made him dominate lieutenants which are >> Giant.
I have a feeling we're gonna need to compare notes again. mmm Can you show me how destructive the getsuga Gin was hit with actually was? With an example from that fight or one before it? I'm under the impression this is one of those mangas where the protagonist constantly improves in power, so I'm not sure later showings would be admissible on this. If I'm wrong and power is consistent though, correct me.
This is his greatest post-training Shikai Getsuga, was calced and just hit City-Block level, so somewhere below Midna's. Bankai would be above (can't find the feat calcs, but The guy who made this crater would make for a good comparison for Bankai!Ichigo), meaning what Gin took was above Midna.
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
So to simplify:
If both apply WW Link wins.
If only one Gin wins, but it's a fight.
If neither, Gin stomps.
If Link properly utilizes the Deku Leaf he stomps.We agree here?
Yes, depending on those What-Ifs these would be the outcomes.
Originally posted by ares834
Where does the idea that Ganondorf has lightning time reaction speeds come from?
Yes, depending on those What-Ifs these would be the outcomes.Then I think we can pretty much wrap this up.
Spoiler:
Link stomps with the Deku leaf.dancesuperm
Scream, ones power grows by between 5 to 10 times when they activate Bankai. Its logical that Ichigo would be at least a bit stronger in Bankai than in Shikai.
Originally posted by ares834
Where does the idea that Ganondorf has lightning time reaction speeds come from?
Scream believes that the balls at 2.10 are lightning and thus lightning speed. This would put Link and Ganon as lightning-timers for playing ping pong with them.
^ Ah... Yeah, I don't buy that. Seem to be just be magic blasts to me.
Originally posted by BloodRain
Shouldn't have brought it up?
Ok, fair enough.
Still, not sure why it would be relevant. Even if Ganon with the ToP has impressive reaction speed, that doesn't translate to WW Link.
Link only held his own against Dorf that was not wielding the ToP (When he did have it Dorf beat the shit out of Link). And Dorf does not seem to have the same reaction speed if he is not wielding the ToP.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Scream, ones power grows by between 5 to 10 times when they activate Bankai. Its logical that Ichigo would be at least a bit stronger in Bankai than in Shikai.Scream believes that the balls at 2.10 are lightning and thus lightning speed. This would put Link and Ganon as lightning-timers for playing ping pong with them.
Nintendo would not commission art of something Link cannot do.
Yeah, I don't buy that. Seem to be just be magic blasts to me.I don't see how what's happening there can be denied.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I came here specifically to tell ares why you're laboring under the delusion that Ganon's a lightning-timer. Not to play this game with you again.
Your argument was what? 'Real lightning isn't yellow'. They changed that in the remake, just for you I assume. You know, ignoring Artistic License and that Yellow Lightning is so common most people just assume electricity is yellow because Pokemon.
'it moves slow in gameplay'. Well no shit, the player has to deflect it. Real humans can't react at 0.00001 of a second or whatever it is.
If you don't want to argue it, don't tote your opinion around like a fact.
Originally posted by KingD19
I'm confused. Are you saying you believe electrical discharges to be legit lightning?Just because a guy can shoot electricity doesn't mean it travels at lightning strike speeds.
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
The only game is your denial without any ability to construct a coherent counter argument.Your argument was what? 'Real lightning isn't yellow'. They changed that in the remake, just for you I assume. You know, ignoring Artistic License and that Yellow Lightning is so common most people just assume electricity is yellow because Pokemon.
'it moves slow in gameplay'. Well no shit, the player has to deflect it. Real humans can't react at 0.00001 of a second or whatever it is.
If you don't want to argue it, don't tote your opinion around like a fact.
I believe that I have constructed many, many arguments over the years.
I don't recall saying that. Although it does sound like something I would say. 😆
Well if it was then surely they could show any indication of speed to allow the player to understand that they are that fast.
Do you seriously want to start this again? I don't, but you sure seem to have a bee up your crack about it. I'm up for humoring you if you want, just don't have a screaming (lol) hissy fit and rage quit like you did last time.
Gonna point out that Ichigo could barely hang with Gin's attacks, and this is a much evolved Ichigo from the one that was effortlessly swatting away Byakuya's Senbonzakura attack, which is pretty much millions of fast moving microscopic blades attacking all at once from different directions.
And there's no way to prove it was legit lightning. If there is one, prove it I say.
