Originally posted by juggerman
I guess Dent and Talia killed themselves huh?
I really do not understand your reasoning.
Do you know the difference between accidental death and intent to kill?
Burton’s Batman killed not by accident, it was intentional, that is why even the Joker said you drop me.
TDK, he rushes to save a boy and Dent dies from the fall that he himself later endures. However, when the Joker felled and it was in his power to save him he did unlike his actions in BB when he faced a similar situation.
TDK and TDKR Batman was not the same one in BB, the persona of the two were different.
Originally posted by Nephthys
To save the child.... by tackling Dent off a ledge. Obviously he didn't want to kill him, but don't act as if it was an accident. He knew Dent was going to die and still did it.As the Joker said, killing is making a choice. One life or another. 😉
You are not getting the point. As you stated he did not want to kill him but if it came to saving the child and rushing him off a cliff he saved the child. Now if he happen to survive Batman was going to go down and finish the job.
Now tell me how does that make him like Burton's Batman which is the point we are discussing?
Burton's Batman is more intimidating because he kills intentionally or goes into situations with the intent to kill unlike Nolan's version.
Originally posted by Kotor3
You are not getting the point. As you stated he did not want to kill him but if it came to saving the child and rushing him off a cliff he saved the child. Now if he happen to survive Batman was going to go down and finish the job.Now tell me how does that make him like Burton's Batman which is the point we are discussing?
Burton's Batman is more intimidating because he kills intentionally or goes into situations with the intent to kill unlike Nolan's version.
You said Nolan's Batman wasn't willing to kill. By tackling Dent off that ledge Bruce proved that he was willing to kill in order to save a life. Juggerman corrected you in that Nolan Batman is willing to kill and I backed him up.
Originally posted by Nephthys
You said Nolan's Batman wasn't willing to kill. By tackling Dent off that ledge Bruce proved that he was willing to kill in order to save a life. Juggerman corrected you in that Nolan Batman is willing to kill and I backed him up.
I stated that Nolan's Batman was not willing to kill after BB. In BB he was willing to kill. If you two feel that this example shows after BB, Nolan's Batman was willing to kill then I disagree.
Dent was near a cliff, and happen to fall when Batman rush him in which Batman felled himself. As you already acknowledge Batman’s objective was not to kill Dent. As I stated he just happen to be near a cliff. At the same time he did not kill the Joker who felled off a Cliff and decided to save the person who killed his loved. So, I am not convinced.
Yeah, I've watched that film about 20 times and I've never gotten the impression that Batman thought "Ledge-Dent-dead-brilliant!" It always came off more as a, "Oh shit, he shot me and now he's gonna shoot that kid oh man gotta jump!"
With Ra's he flat out told that b*tch he gonna let him die. Huge frackin' difference in tone and intention.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So it was marketed as a doomed romance? Well that#s what the film was really. The tragedy it focuses on is the tragedy of that doomed romance.So the marketing was spot on, and clearly audiences would have got what they wanted.
Well AOTC gross earnings did fall by a huge number compared to TPM. In fact even ROTS didn't reach TPM numbers. So your theory isn't working there.
Besides TPM was a "Love it or hate it" movie. Many people still enjoyed it regardless of the criticisms.
Not sure how your maths is working here. Because again Blade III grossed the least of all 3 movies despite having the advantage of inflation on it's side.
And yet The Crow wasn't exactly one of the biggest movies of all time. TDK was.
Fact is if people didn't enjoy TDK they would not have been invested in watching TDKR. The fact that TDKR made the most of the trilogy says a lot about the excitement behind the franchise by that point.
Well fact is both audiences and critics alike loves that move.
The movie made tons so the marketing paid off. But it most probably wouldn't have made anywhere near that much profit if it was a mediocre movie.
Understand & respect your opinions man.
A pleasant change to have an intelligent debate for once.
Originally posted by Nephthys
To save the child.... by tackling Dent off a ledge. Obviously he didn't want to kill him, but don't act as if it was an accident. He knew Dent was going to die and still did it.
I'm sorry but there is one obvious flaw to this "To Kill Or Not" debate.
The flaw being why didn't Batman use his grappling hook to swing to safety (after tackling Dent) or his cape to buffet his fall, capturing & keeping Dent alive in the process?
Originally posted by Kotor3Burton's Batman is more intimidating because he kills intentionally or goes into situations with the intent to kill unlike Nolan's version.
No he doesn't. It was only the Joker he went with the intention of killing. And that was because he killed his parents.
IIRC Bruce was going to do the same to his Parent's killer in Batman Begins.
I'd say the scene where Batman was beating the Joker silly in jail made Nolan's Batman look pretty intimidating. "Good cop, bad cop.. Something like that."
But the scenes that really stand out were the Batman Begins ones. So Really not getting how Burton's was so much more intimidating.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No he doesn't. It was only the Joker he went with the intention of killing. And that was because he killed his parents.
This is not true.
In Batman he:
1. Bombarded the joker’s lair and had no intention of capturing anyone.
2. He dropped Jack Napier into the chemical waste.
3. Kill Joker’s goon in the Church Tower.
4. Killed the Joker as he was trying to escape.
Batman Returns (Let me try to remember this one)
1. He attaches a bomb to one of the penguins goons.
Simply put for Burton's Batman killing was not out of the picture whereas for Nolan’s it was starting with TDK.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
IIRC Bruce was going to do the same to his Parent's killer in Batman Begins.I'd say the scene where Batman was beating the Joker silly in jail made Nolan's Batman look pretty intimidating. "Good cop, bad cop.. Something like that."
But the scenes that really stand out were the Batman Begins ones. So Really not getting how Burton's was so much more intimidating.
If you read my previous statements you would have notice that I never included BB. I always stated that after BB Nolan’s Batman would not kill and that BB Batman was different from the one in TDK and TDKR.
Originally posted by Kotor3
This is not true.In Batman he:
1. Bombarded the joker’s lair and had no intention of capturing anyone.
2. He dropped Jack Napier into the chemical waste.
3. Kill Joker’s goon in the Church Tower.
4. Killed the Joker as he was trying to escape.Batman Returns (Let me try to remember this one)
1. He attaches a bomb to one of the penguins goons.Simply put for Burton's Batman killing was not out of the picture whereas for Nolan’s it was starting with TDK.
Ah yes been a while since I've seen them. I remember there were a few killings now. Except for dropping Jack, that wasn't on purpose.
Batman killing so much doesn't do the character justice Imho. Otherwise he may as well carry a gun.
Originally posted by Kotor3
If you read my previous statements you would have notice that I never included BB. I always stated that after BB Nolan’s Batman would not kill and that BB Batman was different from the one in TDK and TDKR.
Yeah but it all carries on from BB. In TDK there's that scene where the Jokers lecturing all the gangsters about how they're having their meeting in pure daylight because they're all so scared/intimidated by the Batman.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Yeah but it all carries on from BB. In TDK there's that scene where the Jokers lecturing all the gangsters about how they're having their meeting in pure daylight because they're all so scared/intimidated by the Batman.
I never said he wasn’t intimidating as Batman. In terms of intimidation the only thing I give Burton’s version over Nolan’s is the fact that Burton’s version had no problem with killing if necessary.
I really do not feel that the persona of Batman in Begins carried over to TDK and TDKR. BB Batman would have never saved the joker from falling to his death. He also was no longer a great detective as he was in BB. He never figured out anything in TDK or TDKR.
Originally posted by Kotor3
He also was no longer a great detective as he was in BB. He never figured out anything in TDK or TDKR.
They touched on his detective skills in TDK when he was analyzing the bullets that were fired back in the batcave.
But yeah his detective skills were not focused on much in the trilogy really.