Originally posted by Galan007
Hm, I could definitely buy-off on the notion that SSJ3 Gotenks>>SSJ3 Goku, but what's the proof that Gotenks' weaker levels are still>>SSJ3 Goku?
There is no proof and it has been a topic of debate for over a decade by many internet geeks.
Here is what both sides' arguments can be boiled down to:
Pro-Gotenks camp:
Goku said for Fat Buu to be patient because he would get a stronger warrior ready to fight him.
Then Goku proceeds to convince Goten and Trunks that a SSJ transformation was necessary to defeat Buu and solidifies his point when Gotenks in a non-SSJ state got his ass handed to him. Thus, Goku was weaker than SSJ1 Gotenks because that's what Goku claimed to Buu.
Pro-Goku Camp:
Goku was holding back against Fat Buu, as he later states before his final confrontation of Kid Buu. His claim about Gotenks being stronger was just a lie to get Fat Buu to stop destroying stuff until Gotenks is ready to fight. Goku's entire plan was to get the earth warriors ready for a life without Goku there to always save them.
Goku held his own against a powered up Buu (Super Buu? I don't remember...but that is how one of their arguments goes).
Both sides have good points but at no point do we know definitively whether or not SSJ1 Gotenks is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. But it does seem reasonable to assume SSJ3 Gotenks is stronger than SSJ3 Goku...HOWEVER!
The pro Goku side has asserted that the immortal SSJ3 Goku could just continually collect power until he was stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. They also state that Goku's superior combat experience would allow him to defeat SSJ3 Gotenks. Also, there are those that simply reject that SSJ3 Gotenks is stronger than SSJ3 Goku under the grounds that they just barely reached SSJ3 State and that that state requires a certain power level before it can be obtained. But, my argument against that is both Trunks and Goten are half-humans and Saiyan-Human hybrids seem to be stronger than just pure humans or pure saiyan.
Originally posted by dadudemonYeah, I figured as much.
There is no proof and it has been a topic of debate for over a decade by many internet geeks.Here is what both sides' arguments can be boiled down to:
Pro-Gotenks camp:
Goku said for Fat Buu to be patient because he would get a stronger warrior ready to fight him.
Then Goku proceeds to convince Goten and Trunks that a SSJ transformation was necessary to defeat Buu and solidifies his point when Gotenks in a non-SSJ state got his ass handed to him. Thus, Goku was weaker than SSJ1 Gotenks because that's what Goku claimed to Buu.
Pro-Goku Camp:
Goku was holding back against Fat Buu, as he later states before his final confrontation of Kid Buu. His claim about Gotenks being stronger was just a lie to get Fat Buu to stop destroying stuff until Gotenks is ready to fight. Goku's entire plan was to get the earth warriors ready for a life without Goku there to always save them.
Goku held his own against a powered up Buu (Super Buu? I don't remember...but that is how one of their arguments goes).
Both sides have good points but at no point do we know definitively whether or not SSJ1 Gotenks is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. But it does seem reasonable to assume SSJ3 Gotenks is stronger than SSJ3 Goku...HOWEVER!
The pro Goku side has asserted that the immortal SSJ3 Goku could just continually collect power until he was stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. They also state that Goku's superior combat experience would allow him to defeat SSJ3 Gotenks. Also, there are those that simply reject that SSJ3 Gotenks is stronger than SSJ3 Goku under the grounds that they just barely reached SSJ3 State and that that state requires a certain power level before it can be obtained. But, my argument against that is both Trunks and Goten are half-humans and Saiyan-Human hybrids seem to be stronger than just pure humans or pure saiyan.
My contention:
SSJ3 Gotenks is more powerful than SSJ3 Goku. Why? Because Goku outright told Vegeta that Super Buu was "FAR too strong" for them to defeat. Conversely, SSJ3 Gotenks was able to fair quite well against Super Buu during their battle-- in fact, I'd even say Gotenks had the advantage before his time ran out and he powered down.
Additionally, we also know that Goku was drastically holding back against Fat Buu, given that it was later confirmed that he could have beaten Kid Buu "in an INSTANT" if he would have fully powered up as a SSJ3.
ie. SSJ3 Gotenks=/>Super Buu>>SSJ3 Goku>>>Kid Buu>>Fat Buu.
That being said, I don't think there is any clear proof that Gotenks' weaker SSJ levels were on par with, much less superior to, SSJ3 Goku. Just my opinion.
Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, I figured as much.My contention:
SSJ3 Gotenks is more powerful than SSJ3 Goku. Why? Because Goku outright told Vegeta that Super Buu was "FAR too strong" for them to defeat. Conversely, SSJ3 Gotenks was able to fair quite well against Super Buu during their battle-- in fact, I'd even say Gotenks had the advantage before his time ran out and he powered down.Additionally, we also know that Goku was drastically holding back against Fat Buu, given that it was later confirmed that he could have beaten Kid Buu "in an INSTANT" if he would have fully powered up as a SSJ3.
ie. SSJ3 Gotenks=/>Super Buu>>SSJ3 Goku>>>Kid Buu>>Fat Buu.
That being said, I don't think there is any clear proof that Gotenks' weaker SSJ levels were on par with, much less superior to, SSJ3 Goku. Just my opinion.
Yeah, but the problem is:
- When Super boo was transforming to Buff boo, he was actually getting stronger. Mind that buff boo is kid boo plus a kaioshin who is weaker then SSJ Gohan, the guy who pulled out the sword that no kaioshin could pull, meaning that kid boo, weaker or stronger then Super boo, should be at least at a comparable scale of power.
- The fact that when goku asked if vegeta wanted to bring Gotenks or Gohan to fight Kid Boo and he basicaly dismissed that option and opted for a genki dama with everybodies energy (gohan's included, someone stronger then ssj3 gotenks), and no one, from goku to elder kaioshin, rised an eyebrown saying he was wrong, which actually is later implied as a good option since a genki dama with gohan's energy alone was not enough to kill boo.
In the end is a tough discussion, because in the begining of the boo saga it seemed that Goku was passing the torch one more time to the young generation, yet later he did step up and even said he could have finished the business when he fought fat boo.
So, as I see it, is hard to really know who was the strongest because the manga itself has some contradictions, but for me the best option is to let mystic gohan, ssj3 gotenks and ssj3 goku at comparables scales of powers.
Re: The Legendary SSJ
Originally posted by ShadeSlayer15
Lets start the convo my friends... The first LSSJ exploded, Could we guess what his power level would have been to explode like that.
Brolly is the only LSS ever to be...it begins and ends with him. It has nothing to do with power levels and thats the end of story.
Power levels have nothing to do with the LSS and everyone here should know that. Everyone here arguing power lvl vs. the LSS has absolutely no clue what the lore is about.
He goes by more then just LSS
Many names have been used such as:
LSS
Super Saiyan Final Form
LSSJ
True Super Saiyan
Originally posted by Darth AngelA few things:
Yeah, but the problem is:- When Super boo was transforming to Buff boo, he was actually getting stronger. Mind that buff boo is kid boo plus a kaioshin who is weaker then SSJ Gohan, the guy who pulled out the sword that no kaioshin could pull, meaning that kid boo, weaker or stronger then Super boo, should be at least at a comparable scale of power.
- The fact that when goku asked if vegeta wanted to bring Gotenks or Gohan to fight Kid Boo and he basicaly dismissed that option and opted for a genki dama with everybodies energy (gohan's included, someone stronger then ssj3 gotenks), and no one, from goku to elder kaioshin, rised an eyebrown saying he was wrong, which actually is later implied as a good option since a genki dama with gohan's energy alone was not enough to kill boo.
a.) Goku wasn't able to fully power up as a SSJ3. Had he been able to, he could have beaten Kid Buu with ease.
b.) Aside from Goku and Vegeta, all of the Z fighters were killed by Kid Buu when he destroyed earth-- so without being able to fully power up as a SSJ3, a spirit bomb was their only hope at defeating him.
Originally posted by BasedIIRC, Goku made those statements before Goten/Trunks had even fused into Gotenks. Goku is many things, but an omniscient clairvoyant, he is not. That said, he might have been able to guesstimate what a fusion between Goten and Trunks would be capable of-- but it was just that: a guess. He had no way to know for certain(key word) what type of power Gotenks would wield.
You mean other than Goku saying it a million times that SSJ Gotenks is stronger than himself?
Guesses=/=facts. Had Goku looked at SSJ Gotenks and said: "he's stronger than me", you'd have a point-- but he never did, that I can recall.
Re: Re: The Legendary SSJ
Originally posted by Suprawell my friend, you are very wrong they tell the story of the very first lssj, so check up on your facts man and according to tokioma ssjg is the final ssj form
Brolly is the only LSS ever to be...it begins and ends with him. It has nothing to do with power levels and thats the end of story.Power levels have nothing to do with the LSS and everyone here should know that. Everyone here arguing power lvl vs. the LSS has absolutely no clue what the lore is about.
He goes by more then just LSS
Many names have been used such as:
LSS
Super Saiyan Final Form
LSSJ
True Super Saiyan
Originally posted by Galan007IIRC, Goku made those statements before Goten/Trunks had even fused into Gotenks. Goku is many things, but an omniscient clairvoyant, he is not. That said, he might have been able to guesstimate what a fusion between Goten and Trunks would be capable of-- but it was just that: a guess. He had no way to know for certain(key word) what type of power Gotenks would wield.
Guesses=/=facts. Had Goku looked at SSJ Gotenks and said: "he's stronger than me", you'd have a point-- but he never did, that I can recall. [/B]
Goku is like the only one in the series who can actually predict power levels and unseen strength..
He knew Gohan would surpass him and everyone and their mother was surprised when Gohan powered up at the Cell Games. He even "called" a SSJ2 transformation without any evidence of there being such a power up. He knew. Unless you think Goku is that dumb to teach the kids a useless technique that would endanger the world if it wasn't good enough.
Regardless during that exchange Piccolo surmised that SSJ3 Goku > Fat Boo. In other words he can sense the strength required to beat him. When SSJ Gotenks first made an appearance, Piccolo complimented his massive his power but was concerned about his speed. Remember that he was one of the very few who watched USSJ Trunks against Cell and even though Trunks was stronger his lack of speed made him lose. So if Piccolo's concerns are about speed then he determined his power is > Fat Boo.
Then Gotenks blitzed the world which showed that he was strong and fast enough to beat Boo. If we're going by this alone then the only definitive thing is SSJ3 Goku ~ SSJ Gotenks. But Goku flat out admitted Gotenks would be stronger and there's nothing suggesting the opposite.
Post ROSAT SSJ Gotenks would slaughter the fvck out of Goku though.
Re: Re: Re: The Legendary SSJ
Originally posted by ShadeSlayer15
well my friend, you are very wrong they tell the story of the very first lssj, so check up on your facts man and according to tokioma ssjg is the final ssj form
Wrong about what?
Read here and then tell me Im wrong..
http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Legendary_Super_Saiyan
There is only one LSSJ, that is and was Brolly
"Broly, is (as the title suggests) the Legendary Super Saiyan, a warrior that tales tell is the single strongest being in history. Broly's final transformation puts him in a class of his own."
there is only one ever so many years they don't live for ever the first lss was consumed by his power and got so strong his body couldn't handle It and he was destroyed, Their is only one LSS ever 1,000 years so what was you saying about me being wrong again
as stated by The prince or all sj vegeta check your facts next time, and also that was probably true before they new about ssj 2,3 and god so once again your wrong haha
Originally posted by BasedI entirely disagree.
Goku is like the only one in the series who can actually predict power levels and unseen strength..He knew Gohan would surpass him and everyone and their mother was surprised when Gohan powered up at the Cell Games. He even "called" a SSJ2 transformation without any evidence of there being such a power up. He knew. Unless you think Goku is that dumb to teach the kids a useless technique that would endanger the world if it wasn't good enough.
Regardless during that exchange Piccolo surmised that SSJ3 Goku > Fat Boo. In other words he can sense the strength required to beat him. When SSJ Gotenks first made an appearance, Piccolo complimented his massive his power but was concerned about his speed. Remember that he was one of the very few who watched USSJ Trunks against Cell and even though Trunks was stronger his lack of speed made him lose. So if Piccolo's concerns are about speed then he determined his power is > Fat Boo.
Then Gotenks blitzed the world which showed that he was strong and fast enough to beat Boo. If we're going by this alone then the only definitive thing is SSJ3 Goku ~ SSJ Gotenks. But Goku flat out admitted Gotenks would be stronger and there's nothing suggesting the opposite.
Post ROSAT SSJ Gotenks would slaughter the fvck out of Goku though.
Goku is neither omniscient, nor is he infallible. He did little more than take an educated guess as to what type of power Gotenks would wield. In fact, he didn't even see the final product of a Goten/Trunks amalgamation until after Gotenks emerged from the time chamber as a SSJ3-- and even then, Goku only commented on how impressive it was that they had learned to master that transformation in such a short amount of time. Anyway, unless a character's guesses are definitively proven later on with something of substance, they never, in any form of literature(be it fictional or non-fictional), equate to incontrovertible fact. And in this case, absolutely nothing substantial confirms that SSJ Gotenks was superior to SSJ3 Goku.
We know base Gotenks was laughably insignificant compared to Super Buu:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16535907/410501.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16535908/410502.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16535909/410503.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16535910/410504.gif.html
We know Super Buu was also WELL above SSJ Gotenks, in lieu of his(Gotenks'😉 bizarre attacks:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16535911/410508.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16535912/410509.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16535913/410510.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16535929/410607.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16535930/410609.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16535931/410705.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16535932/410706.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16535933/410707.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16535934/410708.gif.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16535935/410709.gif.html
We know SSJ3 Gotenks was "close to" Super Buu's level:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16535884/411007.gif.html
_______
We know SSJ3 Goku was evidently much weaker than Super Buu:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16535885/420412.gif.html
We know SSJ3 Goku could have beaten Fat Buu, but opted not to because he wanted to give Goten/Trunks a chance:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16535886/420711.gif.html
We know full power SSJ3 Goku could have destroyed Kid Buu effortlessly as well:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16535887/420813.gif.html
So as far as provable(key word) facts are concerned:
SSJ3 Gotenks=~Super Buu>SSJ Gotenks>base Gotenks.
We also know:
SSJ3 Gotenks=~Super Buu>SSJ3 Goku>Kid Buu>Fat Buu.
Where exactly base Gotenks and SSJ Gotenks plug-into the latter equation, or where SSJ3 Goku plugs-into the former equation, is impossible to say based on what we know to be fact. On panel we saw Super Buu utterly demolish SSJ(and base) Gotenks, despite being completely surprised by his zany attacks, and not really taking him seriously at all. We also have Goku saying that Super Buu was "far too strong" for him to defeat. So while SSJ Gotenks *might* be around SSJ3 Goku's level, absolutely no evidence alludes to him being stronger.
Thus, your contention that SSJ Gotenks "would slaughter the fvck out of Goku" cannot logically be referenced as fact, because it cannot be proven. Your stance is based almost exclusively on your personal opinions+Goku's guesstimation/speechification on a character that didn't even exist when he made those claims. Sorry, but I just can't buy it.
Originally posted by Galan007Goku is neither omniscient, nor is he infallible.
He did little more than take an educated guess as to what type of power Gotenks would wield. In fact, he didn't even see the final product of a Goten/Trunks amalgamation until after Gotenks emerged from the time chamber as a SSJ3-- and even then, Goku only commented on how impressive it was that they had learned to master that transformation in such a short amount of time.
And the point is? Power level aren't an abstract concept...it's formulaic which is why it can be computed with scouters. The dance is no different. It multiplies the powers of the two users by a given amount. Goku spent years in other world training, obviously he's going to know how much of a multiplier the dance will give. Goku's not a dumbass when it comes to fighting, in fact he's probably the smartest one on Earth. I mean if we're going out blatantly ignore statements from characters then you can argue that anything here.
Anyway, unless a character's guesses are definitively proven later on with something of substance, they never, in any form of literature(be it fictional or non-fictional), equate to incontrovertible fact. And in this case, absolutely nothing substantial confirms that SSJ Gotenks was superior to SSJ3 Goku.
...And it works both ways. Your original point that SSJ3 Goku >>>>>>> Gotenks "cannot" be proven.
So while SSJ Gotenks *might* be around SSJ3 Goku's level, absolutely no evidence alludes to him being stronger.
There's no *might* about this. If Gotenks wasn't strong enough then Piccolo would have nixed the plan right then and there. Instead he sensed Gotenks power and deemed him strong enough to beat Boo.
Thus, your contention that SSJ Gotenks "would slaughter the fvck out of Goku" cannot logically be referenced as fact, because it cannot be proven.
Lol, have you heard of the concept of training? You know, the part where characters ALWAYS get stronger after they go through with it? If SSJ Gotenks ~= SSJ3 Goku before the training then yes you can logically place Gotenks stronger than Goku after training in a room that has in each case magnified the powers of the user. Piccolo again has noticed a power boost after the boys went through training.
Your stance is based almost exclusively on your personal opinions+Goku's guesstimation/speechification on a character that didn't even exist when he made those claims. Sorry, but I just can't buy it. [/B]
Well yeah, I wouldn't expect you to buy something while ignoring half of the thing you're questioning. Piccolo has stated that Gotenks went through enough of a power boost where the only concern about him in his speed out of fear that he was using the ASSJ transformation. Your argument also hinges on the fact that Goku, who's spent a decade in other world knows nothing of a technique that he's banking on that will save the world. It's completely out of character and you really can't find any proof at all suggesting that Goku was completely wrong. Admittedly the feats are lacking but there's absolutely no proof at all SSJ3 Goku > SSJ Gotenks.
Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, I figured as much.My contention:
SSJ3 Gotenks is more powerful than SSJ3 Goku. Why? Because Goku outright told Vegeta that Super Buu was "FAR too strong" for them to defeat. Conversely, SSJ3 Gotenks was able to fair quite well against Super Buu during their battle-- in fact, I'd even say Gotenks had the advantage before his time ran out and he powered down.Additionally, we also know that Goku was drastically holding back against Fat Buu, given that it was later confirmed that he could have beaten Kid Buu "in an INSTANT" if he would have fully powered up as a SSJ3.
ie. SSJ3 Gotenks=/>Super Buu>>SSJ3 Goku>>>Kid Buu>>Fat Buu.
That being said, I don't think there is any clear proof that Gotenks' weaker SSJ levels were on par with, much less superior to, SSJ3 Goku. Just my opinion.
Nothing is wrong with your logic and I cannot disagree with anything you have stated.
👆
Rest assured, if there was something wrong, I'd argue against it. uhuh
Originally posted by Based
Admittedly the feats are lacking but there's absolutely no proof at all SSJ3 Goku > SSJ Gotenks.
Here's part of your problem: that is not what Galan ever argued.
This has been his argument:
Originally posted by Galan007
And in this case, absolutely nothing substantial confirms that SSJ Gotenks was superior to SSJ3 Goku.So as far as provable(key word) facts are concerned:
SSJ3 Gotenks=~Super Buu>SSJ Gotenks>base Gotenks.We also know:
SSJ3 Gotenks=~Super Buu>SSJ3 Goku>Kid Buu>Fat Buu.So while SSJ Gotenks *might* be around SSJ3 Goku's level, absolutely no evidence alludes to him being stronger.
Thus, your contention that SSJ Gotenks "would slaughter the fvck out of Goku" cannot logically be referenced as fact, because it cannot be proven.
