The Legendary SSJ

Originally posted by Based
I'm just going to nitpick in saying that this is strawman was actually annoying. No I never said Goku was infallible. He made a calculation about Gotenks power level based on the fusion dance in which he had plenty of time to study. Now if you think he's stupid enough to roll the dice on Earth's future with two little boys without any good reason, then by all means go ahead.

That said, pointing out the provable fact that Goku is a very fallible character =/= a straw-man. I'll explain why in detail later on...

Originally posted by Based
And the point is? Power level aren't an abstract concept...it's formulaic which is why it can be computed with scouters. The dance is no different. It multiplies the powers of the two users by a given amount. Goku spent years in other world training, obviously he's going to know how much of a multiplier the dance will give. Goku's not a dumbass when it comes to fighting, in fact he's probably the smartest one on Earth. I mean if we're going out blatantly ignore statements from characters then you can argue that anything here.

And again: Goku was taking an educated guess. He had no way of knowing for sure how powerful a Goten/Trunks amalgam would become. In fact, had Gotenks not been able to transform into a SSJ3(a transformation that Goku obviously didn't account for, given how shocked he was by it), then his guess would have been wrong, as Super Buu was FAR more powerful than SSJ Gotenks.

Originally posted by Based
...And it works both ways. Your original point that SSJ3 Goku >>>>>>> Gotenks "cannot" be proven.

However, there is absolutely no way for you to prove your massively overinflated claim that SSJ Gotenks>>>SSJ3 Goku.

Originally posted by Based
There's no *might* about this. If Gotenks wasn't strong enough then Piccolo would have nixed the plan right then and there. Instead he sensed Gotenks power and deemed him strong enough to beat Boo.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16535929/410607.gif.html
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Piccolo obviously sensed that SSJ Gotenks could NOT defeat Super Buu, which is why he destroyed the entrance to the time chamber from the inside:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16541273/410709.gif.html
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He knew Super Buu was more powerful than SSJ Gotenks, and thought trapping them all in the time chamber was the only way to stop him-- Piccolo obviously couldn't sense Gotenks' SSJ3 power, otherwise he wouldn't have taken such drastic measures.

He was also very surprised by the transformation initially-- which further supports the notion that he couldn't sense Gotenks' latent SSJ3 power until he physically transformed:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16541396/410809.gif.html

Originally posted by Based
Lol, have you heard of the concept of training? You know, the part where characters ALWAYS get stronger after they go through with it? If SSJ Gotenks ~= SSJ3 Goku before the training then yes you can logically place Gotenks stronger than Goku after training in a room that has in each case magnified the powers of the user. Piccolo again has noticed a power boost after the boys went through training.

Originally posted by Based
Well yeah, I wouldn't expect you to buy something while ignoring half of the thing you're questioning. Piccolo has stated that Gotenks went through enough of a power boost where the only concern about him in his speed out of fear that he was using the ASSJ transformation. Your argument also hinges on the fact that Goku, who's spent a decade in other world knows nothing of a technique that he's banking on that will save the world. It's completely out of character and you really can't find any proof at all suggesting that Goku was completely wrong. Admittedly the feats are lacking but there's absolutely no proof at all SSJ3 Goku > SSJ Gotenks.

You, on the other hand, are basing your opinion exclusively on character statements that were proven wrong. Regardless of the speechification made about base-level and SSJ Gotenks, we KNOW that he WASN'T nearly strong enough to defeat Super Buu, because Super Buu shit-stomped him. Hell, Buu didn't even take SSJ Gotenks seriously at all.

Gotenks ONLY became powerful enough to contend with Super Buu when he became 6x more powerful, and went SSJ3-- and Goku was shocked that he was able to attain this form, so it clearly wasn't something he'd accounted for with his original boasts:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16541397/410812.gif.html

Same with Piccolo:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16541396/410809.gif.html

Originally posted by dadudemon
Nothing is wrong with your logic and I cannot disagree with anything you have stated.

👆

Rest assured, if there was something wrong, I'd argue against it. uhuh

Originally posted by dadudemon
Here's part of your problem: that is not what Galan ever argued.

This has been his argument:

If he'd simply claimed that SSJ Gotenks=~SSJ3 Goku, then I'd have no problem with it, because it is a supportable opinion based on what we know to be fact.

However, his claim that SSJ Gotenks "would slaughter the fvck out of Goku" borders on laughable, because it cannot be supported by any facts whatsoever.

Originally posted by Galan007
And again: Goku was taking an educated guess. He had no way of knowing for sure how powerful a Goten/Trunks amalgam would become. In fact, had Gotenks not been able to transform into a SSJ3(a transformation that Goku obviously didn't account for, given how shocked he was by it), then his guess would have been wrong, as Super Buu was FAR more powerful than SSJ Gotenks.

... As I've already stated: we saw Super Buu stomp the bejesus out of SSJ Gotenks in the time chamber AFTER his training. Like I [also] mentioned: Piccolo's(and Goku's) opinion of base-level and SSJ Gotenks was contradicted by Super Buu effortlessly trouncing him. Showings>statements.

Correct me if i'm wrong here but Goku guessed Gotenks would be powerful enough to defeat Fat Buu even without the SSJ3 form and he was correct. He had no idea Buu would change into another more powerful form(tho honestly he should have seeing as how all the major villians transform at one point or another) that would be too much for the boys and even himself to handle

Originally posted by juggerman
Correct me if i'm wrong here but Goku guessed Gotenks would be powerful enough to defeat Fat Buu even without the SSJ3 form and he was correct. He had no idea Buu would change into another more powerful form(tho honestly he should have seeing as how all the major villians transform at one point or another) that would be too much for the boys and even himself to handle

Either way, my point is simply that SSJ Gotenks cannot be proven as any more powerful than SSJ3 Goku-- let alone far more powerful, as some have claimed.

I agree they are on par

Honestly if broly was good id consider him awesome but not better than goku

Ya'll niggas are gay.