Wolverine vs. Captain America

Originally posted by FrothByte
We're not disregarding his high end feats. I don't think anyone here said that Cap can KO Wolverine with one shot. All I'm saying (and others too I believe) is that it's POSSIBLE to KO Wolverine, and that Cap has the tools to do it even though it will be very difficult for him.

👆

Originally posted by KingD19
I agree that it's a possibility. But it's not as easy as some people are making it out to be.

It will definitely be a good fight, but lets not pretend Movie Wolverine is invincible, and can not be defeated by someone of Cap's caliber.

Blob and Juggernaut did not have an indestructible weapon. Nor did Sabertooth who actually did KO Wolverine in the first movie.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
👆

It will definitely be a good fight, but lets not pretend Movie Wolverine is invincible, and can not be defeated by someone of Cap's caliber.

Blob and Juggernaut did not have an indestructible weapon. Nor did Sabertooth who actually did KO Wolverine in the first movie.

Blob easily stopped a tank shell with his fist and wasn't even moved. He was knocking Logan across the room with belly bumps.

Juggernaut literally shook the ground when he walked and caused small tremors when he ran. He stepped on an APC and crushed it into scrap. He was headbutting through foot or more thick stone walls with no problems, and actually ripped himself free from a stone floor after Shadowcat phased him in it(which showed he was invulnerable enough to resist molecular realignment)

They can produce faaaaar more force than Cap and Logan took it all without going down.

Originally posted by KingD19
Blob easily stopped a tank shell with his fist and wasn't even moved. He was knocking Logan across the room with belly bumps.

Juggernaut literally shook the ground when he walked and caused small tremors when he ran. He stepped on an APC and crushed it into scrap. He was headbutting through foot or more thick stone walls with no problems, and actually ripped himself free from a stone floor after Shadowcat phased him in it(which showed he was invulnerable enough to resist molecular realignment)

What does it matter when he's been knocked out by far less. And it wasn't a one off either.

Originally posted by KingD19
They can produce faaaaar more force than Cap and Logan took it all without going down.

Blob clearly wasn't indestructible as her hurt himself hitting Wolverine. Cap's shield is a completely indestructible weapon, with Cap's strength behind it, is definitely a threat to Wolverine.

And between X1 and Origins, Logan was ko'd 3 times I believe. Once by Sabretooth, once by the cop's bullet in X2, and once by Stryker when he shot him in the head with an Adamantium bullet. Him taking extreme amounts of damage and not getting ko'd aren't one off's either.

If Logan with an elbow can ko Blob, then he'd have an easier time ko'ing Cap who clearly isn't on Blob's level.

Originally posted by KingD19

If Logan with an elbow can ko Blob, then he'd have an easier time ko'ing Cap who clearly isn't on Blob's level.

Well, except that Cap is a lot harder to hit than Blob.

I didn't mean he'd have an easier time getting hands on him. I meant his hits would do more to hurt Cap than they would Blob.

Originally posted by BlackZero30x
Im pretty sure Cap punching though a subs glass while its moving underwater was far more impressive then the punching bag.

I don't mostly because it isn't but partially because it wasn't a regular sub and regular sub glass.

Originally posted by FrothByte
There's a difference between punching power and strength. A world strongman champion will never punch as strongly as a heavyweight boxer. That doesn't mean that the boxer can out-push a stronman.

You're making it seem as though I made that argument and you are arguing against it. Since I did not make that argument, directly or indirectly, it is rather pointless to make it unless you were making it for general purposes (in which case, it would be inappropriate to quote my post and make that point).

What you have done is actually called a "strawman." It is a logical fallacy.

However, you've made one very major flaw: a strongman will definitely punch with a lot, and I mean a lot, more power than most boxers. When I say a lot more force, I don't know how to stress that enough. We are talking a magnitude of difference between a lightweight and your average world class strongman.

Why is there such a difference? Even without tons of training that the boxer has, there is just simply no comparison to the much slower punch that large strongman can put out.

f = ma

p = m*v

f= force

m = mass

v = velocity

p = velocity

That is pretty simple. This is why even an untrained strongman could literally cave someone's skull in if they got angry enough...with just a stupid punch. This same relationship is why someone that weighs only 201lbs (but is a heavyweight boxer) can do the same, if not more, despite being almost half the size of some of the strongmen: their punches have a lot more velocity behind them so their fists can catch up to the momentum the much larger men carry with their absurdly strong arms.

And the explosiveness behind a punch (the quickness with which they can accelerate their arms before connecting) also contributes to the force upon impact.

I hope that makes much more sense to you, now. This is why no regular human, on the entire planet, could withstand a punch to the head from a very fat but a very very super-humanly strong Blob: it would likely decap them or smash their heads like Gallagher smashes watermelons.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Cap punching through the submarine window and taking down that punching bag was his best feat of punching/striking power.

I agree that the punching bag feat is his best strength feat. It takes quite a bit above superhuman to pull that off. If it was held up by a standard chain, looking over the failure points for those chains, it puts his strength (it is a weird calculation because it is not a static system but it works out because the bag looks like it stays "upright" upon impact making it almost like a static system) in the 5-10x range of the strongest punchers.

Originally posted by FrothByte
And quite frankly, it shits over any striking feat Wolverine has.

Agreed. I not only agree to this I agree to this 10x over. Wolverine may be superhuman in his strikes...but that's probably more to do with the density (which increases the mass of his arms when throwing punches) and rigidity added to his punches that his adamantium skeleton offers him. Even taking that into consideration, Wolverine has NO punching feats that come close to what Steve did to that punching bag.

Originally posted by FrothByte
However when it comes to pure strength display, then his best feats were holding up that bike with women on it,

Definitely not that bike. Again, that's human level, at best, and not a strength feat at all, at worst (because it was a stage show prop).

Originally posted by FrothByte
and throwing that hydra soldier straight up in the air.

That is a good feat but it still does not even come close to the punching bag thingie.

Originally posted by FrothByte
I don't need kinematics because simple physics is sufficient to disprove your points.

Originally posted by FrothByte
1. A burst of energy is always easier to achieve than sustaining the same energy for a duration of time.

I agree. This is the difference between Wolverine throwing those two soldiers and Steve throwing the 1 man: Wolverine held himself in place before throwing. Steve used a burst. 😄

But, yeah, you do need to understand the kinematics. Throwing anything, at that angle and in the way he did, even if you're stupid strong, will not amount to anything more than:

1. Torn rotator cuffs with anything over 20-30 lbs.
2. Not being able to use anymore than 20-30 lbs.

It is quite an awkward angle and very dangerous for even really strong ligaments.

Originally posted by FrothByte
...but it's still got nothing on Cap carrying that bike with women on top of it.

"Definitely not that bike. Again, that's human level, at best, and not a strength feat at all, at worst (because it was a stage show prop)."

Originally posted by FrothByte
lol at that feat being replicated by normal men. The total weight would have been over 1000 lbs. and Cap was holding it with arms fully extended, without showing any strain, for a continuous amount of time.

Yeah....that's my point. The feat was replicated by hoomans. Sure, they are peak strength, but they are still humans.

But then this:

"Definitely not that bike. Again, that's human level, at best, and not a strength feat at all, at worst (because it was a stage show prop)."

Originally posted by FrothByte
I re-watched the scene and he wasn't "moving around" the bike. He was perfectly still while holding that bike.

So did I. He's moving around, underneath a static prop which looks awkward if it is supposed to be a strength feat because we do not film things like it is the 50s, anymore. Whether that was intentional or not, it happened on screen.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Throwing someone across the room at a certain distance will NEVER be as difficult as throwing someone straight up at the same distance. Of course Wolverine did throw 2 of those guys, but then I'll redirect you to the motorcycle feat again..

But accelerating 2 someones in an arc, that started in a motion that was directly opposite of the force of gravity, forces the person to overcome the pull of gravity to start the backwards throw. 🙂 You are also forgetting about overcoming an object at rest which increases the amount of force required (those two bodies would still require quite a bit of force to throw in a vacuum if we want them to reach the speeds that they did on film...inertia, mang...don't forget your motionless bodies still have mass).

And the motorcycle feat does not come anywhere close to the two-man throw in terms of applied strength. 🙂

Additionally, Cap did not throw straight up so you're just destroying your own point.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Fact is, Captain America is consistent in his strength feats. Even his shield bashes have enemies flipping head over heels.

Which is a human-level feat. 🙂

Originally posted by FrothByte
Wolverine has very inconsistent strength feats, and most of them he only does when his claws are involved.

Really? So what are his low-end strength feats?

Originally posted by FrothByte
But what Cap has on his side is strength, agility, and skill.

Wrong.

What Captain has on his side are the following:

Agility
Straight line Speed

And I'm out of things. I cannot think of anything else captain has on his side.

Wolverine fought in several wars, including WWII. He's every bit a top-shelf combat soldier as Steve and then some. Skills definitely go to Wolverine in spades. There is definitely no contest, there.

Wolverine has better senses, though.

There can be an argument made that Wolverine is faster in combat speed than Wolverine or vice versa: I say it is too close to call that easily. I'll let them have a draw, here.

Durability goes to Wolverine in spades.

Heart goes to Wolverine in spades mostly because he's consistently harming himself in every single damn fight, every by just pulling out his blades. I'd like to see bullet holes put through Steve and see if he just stands there, growling, like Wolverine did to Agent Zero right after getting his metal claws. Don't think it would happen. 😄

Smarts go to Wolverine. He's pretty ancient and his wisdom and experience give him combat intuition that very few people, even among the mutants, have. Steve comes in a close second, however: he's a natural. If Steve could have lived as long as James, Steve would definitely win this category by spades.

And Wolverine wins in the X-factor: the ability to scare your opponent or do something unexpected. The "extra" stuff that can win a fight.

Putting it into the combat sim I built, Wolverine wins 996 times out of 1000. That's mostly due to Steve not being able to get a KO on Wolverine but in very rare circumstances.

I didn't read what ddm wrote, but I can guarantee that he is completely wrong

Originally posted by Mindset
I didn't read what ddm wrote, but I can guarantee that he is completely wrong

crylaugh

For the motorcycle feat, I'm pretty sure he was standing still and was on a rotating platform. And there's no reason to think it was a prop since it was clear he was a super soldier.

Looks like a prop to me...mostly because it was, in real life, a motorcycle on a sturdy platform where 3 girls were sitting. All "Steve" was doing was holding his arms up.

In the movie, it looked just like that (rather than using some easy to do CGI or camera effects), too. So I'll take it for what it looks like the director intended: a cheesy stage-prop show to boost morale. Not a strength feat, in the slightest. It also does not function as a superhuman feat.

Cap is very skilled and the shield gives him a great advantage against any unarmed foe, but if he gets cut one time by those claws then the fight is over. He may heal in a day or so, but not the way Wolverine heals. I don't see how cap can take the majority. He may be able to knock wolverine out, but not very often.

Oh, and my interpretation of Wolverine knocking out Blob was that the comic version of Blob has a nearly invulnerable body and fat layers but his head is not as durable.

YouTube video

Starting at about 2:31. Looks like he's holding them up on his own. We can't see any strings or a platform under the bike or anything. It even looks like it moves a bit in his grip.

And it would function as a superhuman feat given the type of bike that is(some type of Harley, I can't remember exactly) and the weight of the girls would have that as over 1200lbs that's he's casually hoisting over his head with his arms fully extended.

Originally posted by dadudemon

Putting it into the combat sim I built, Wolverine wins 996 times out of 1000. That's mostly due to Steve not being able to get a KO on Wolverine but in very rare circumstances.

Dunce material is the dude who thinks the bike is a prop and not a superhuman feat. This is the first time ive ever heard someone make sucha stupid statement on any board and brush off that feat since the movie came out. They were clearly trying to show hey this guy is a real super soldier. Anywho, wolverine is highly dangerous. He is more than capable of ending this fight quick, but cap is a much more proficient fighter. He is clearly stronger and faster and thats going to give him the slight edge along with his shield. Whether he knocks him out with it is a toss up because of wolverines inconsistency with durability. There is a scene in the first avenger where cap uppercuts a hydra soldier with the shield and sends him flying. That blow can def seperate logan from his senses.

Originally posted by dadudemon
However, you've made one very major flaw: a strongman will definitely punch with a lot, and I mean a lot, more power than most boxers. When I say a lot more force, I don't know how to stress that enough. We are talking a magnitude of difference between a lightweight and your average world class strongman.

First of all, I said HEAVYWEIGHT boxers. Second, if you seriously think that a strongman competitor can generate the same punching strength as a heavyweight boxer, then I'm convinced you don't know much about how punches or strikes work. Yes mass, weight and velocity contribute a lot to it, but arm strength has very very little to do with punching power.

Originally posted by KingD19
YouTube video

Starting at about 2:31. Looks like he's holding them up on his own. We can't see any strings or a platform under the bike or anything. It even looks like it moves a bit in his grip.

And it would function as a superhuman feat given the type of bike that is(some type of Harley, I can't remember exactly) and the weight of the girls would have that as over 1200lbs that's he's casually hoisting over his head with his arms fully extended.

Yup, that's what I'm talking about. He's clearly not holding the bike and he's clearly moving about underneath the bike but the bike has an awkward feel of just sitting there.

Or are you saying he shot a real gun in that sequence, too?

Originally posted by FrothByte
First of all, I said HEAVYWEIGHT boxers. Second, if you seriously think that a strongman competitor can generate the same punching strength as a heavyweight boxer, then I'm convinced you don't know much about how punches or strikes work.

First of all, I said lightweight. Second of all, I'm still undefeated, 11-0, MMA. I'm also a former powerlifter that took 6th in the state for my weight class.

Lastly, I went to school for physics.

So, yeah, I clearly know what I'm talking about.

But, if you don't believe me, ask Derek Poundstone to punch you in the head, as hard as he can.

Then compare that to a punch from a prime Larry Holmes

Let me know who punched you harder, brah.

(I'm not being fair...Larry Holmes was a champion in his prime. Poundstone has never won the World's Strongest Man).

Originally posted by FrothByte
Yes mass, weight and velocity contribute a lot to it, but arm strength has very very little to do with punching power.

hahahahahaahaha

Arm strength has almost everything to do with punching power.

Go tell Rampage that he doesn't punch hard because he's strong, he punches hard because it is "all technique, brah". Let me know what he says.

Here, I'll make it easier on you: one day, in class (boxing), our instructor had this guy....let's call him John....come to the front of the class and punch him as hard as he could right in the gut. Poor John was 120lbs and 5'5". But John had been coming to class for ages and his technique was superb (among the best, according to our instructor).

What were the results of John punching him? Obviously, our instructor was completely unphased. There was probably some redness around the area for 5 minutes but that's just about it.

Why did our instructor do this? To demonstrate that no matter how good you are at punching, if you're weak, your punches will still be weak. Our instructor wanted us to eat better, lift weights, and put on some muscle: that was the lesson.

Granted, he was unorthodox in believing you should never lose weight for a match. But I agree with him: unless you're dropping your bodyfat percentage very slowly over time, you should never drop weight before a match.

I could probably punch harder than Derek Pondstone and I'm only 175. With the silly over-sized show-muscles, he couldn't move properly to generate maximum force. Guy probably can't even scratch his own back, the loser.

Old peace-loving retired Mike Tyson could certainly still punch his ass in.

Originally posted by Robtard
I could probably punch harder than Derek Pondstone and I'm only 175. With the silly over-sized show-muscles, he couldn't move properly to generate maximum force. Guy probably can't even scratch his own back, the loser.

You're more than welcome to try. 🙂

Let me know how that works.

Originally posted by Robtard
Old peace-loving retired Mike Tyson could certainly still punch his ass in.

I bet that's true especially if Mike got back into shape like the rumor bag is saying. There is certainly a lot to say for skills in a fight. Just raw punching power, however, is not a direct measure of fighting skill. It is how you apply that punching power.

I wanna do this:
http://www.ehow.com/how_7535072_calculate-punching-force.html

I've been training on the bag for almost a year, now. I punch pretty damn hard. I want to measure my punching force. 😄

Edit - Can you find me a punch force sensor? One that does not cost nearly $100? Something closer to $200 is acceptable.