Originally posted by currymanThe way I read it:
😛I've no doubt that Voidtry was more powerful than Loki, but let's not pretend that Loki was actually pulling some kind of last-stand to save his brother.
He had a contingency plan, as we saw in Thor/Loki one-shot.
Originally posted by Galan007Does Molecule Man even have any sort of feats of resisting matter manip?
Hence the "barring PIS/CIS" part of my post.If Voidtry could one-shot atomize the likes of Molecule Man and Loki, doing the same to Thor shouldn't have been an issue.
Loki obviously didn't even try to resist as well. But he's no Thor.
Originally posted by Branlor SwiftSentry completely incapacitated/overpowered Owen with his molecule manipulation, and then vaporized him like a weak feeb. If he could do that to Owen, there's no reason he shouldn't have been able to do the same to Thor. I, for one, definitely wouldn't put Thor above Owen--hell, a weakass version of Owen(he couldn't even manipulate organics, iirc) already owned Thor+Surfer+Tony+Cap--let alone Voidtry, who was clearly more powerful than Owen overall, but lacked the degree of experience/control.
Does Molecule Man even have any sort of feats of resisting matter manip?Loki obviously didn't even try to resist as well. But he's no Thor.
Given Loki's general durability, I'd say one-shotting him like fodder is quite impressive.
Originally posted by Galan007
Sentry completely incapacitated/overpowered Owen with his molecule manipulation, and then vaporized him like a weak feeb. If he could do that to Owen, there's no reason he shouldn't have been able to do the same to Thor. I, for one, definitely wouldn't put Thor above Owen--hell, a weakass version of Owen(he couldn't even manipulate organics, iirc) already owned Thor+Surfer+Tony+Cap--let alone Voidtry, who was clearly more powerful than Owen overall, but lacked the degree of experience/control.Given Loki's general durability, I'd say one-shotting him like fodder is quite impressive.
But anyway, Owen's raw power doesn't flow into his ability to resist his molecules being tampered with. And that weakass version also got his ass knocked out by Captain America, which flows into El Glassio Cannonado and doesn't exactly help.
It is. I never denied that. It still doesn't mean he can just easily do so to Thor.
Originally posted by Branlor SwiftIf Owen were more powerful, he *should have* been able to break free of Sentry's molecular phuckery. Typically, a weaker character can't blatantly overpower a stronger character. Imo, the scene was clear in that regard: Sentry was more powerful but less experienced.
He basically attacked Owen out of nowhere and caught him with his pants down. The same thing happened with Loki and Bor.But anyway, Owen's raw power doesn't flow into his ability to resist his molecules being tampered with. And that weakass version also got his ass knocked out by Captain America, which flows into El Glassio Cannonado and doesn't exactly help.
It is. I never denied that. It still doesn't mean he can just easily do so to Thor.
I don't speak Latin, but every character has low feats. That said, weakass Owen still owned Thor+Surfer+Tony+Cap with ease. Imo, Siege-era Voidtry>DR-era Owen>>Thor. I believe Void was beaten by that team-up solely because Marvel induced massive levels of PIS/CIS(he wanted to die, he didn't try using molecule manipulation on anyone but Loki, etc.) /shrug
Originally posted by Galan007He was sneak attacked while he wasn't paying attention. He was all the way in Sentry's snare by the time he could have tried anything.
If Owen were more powerful, he *should have* been able to break free of Sentry's molecular phuckery. Typically, a weaker character can't blatantly overpower a stronger character. Imo, the scene was clear in that regard: Sentry was more powerful but less experienced.I don't speak Latin, but every character has low feats. That said, weakass Owen still owned Thor+Surfer+Tony+Cap with ease. Imo, Siege-era Voidtry>DR-era Owen>>Thor. I believe Void was beaten by that team-up solely because Marvel induced massive levels of PIS/CIS(he wanted to die, he didn't try using molecule manipulation on anyone but Loki, etc.) /shrug
He got straight knocked out. Bringing that up doesn't help your case of his resistance or durability.
That arc wasn't a clear indication that he was more powerful.
When the only thing he didn't try (that we know of) was matter manip, that doesn't make it massive levels of PIS/CIS. It'd be like saying Thor not doing a Godblast made that scene massive levels of pis/cis.
In fact, why didn't MM just destroy Sentry again if we're going to bring up PIS/CIS? His powers still worked on other things, and we seen him do it 3 times in the same story... plus it's his whole thing.
lol, Bob wasn't "asleep" during Siege, he was there just "darker", having given in to Void.
And MM still lost to Captain America, MM has a history of screwing up his powers if his mind's not in it (arbitrary limitations).
MM also states that Sentry's molecules are strange and different.
The whole thing was little more than Sentry catching an insane MM off-guard.
No more impressive and a testament of power than some herald using the "hyperspace weakness" of Celestials to beat them.
Originally posted by Branlor SwiftOwen destroyed Sentry 3 times before he(Sentry) learned to apply molecule manipulation offensively. Once Sentry finally learned this skill, Owen was nothing.
He was sneak attacked while he wasn't paying attention. He was all the way in Sentry's snare by the time he could have tried anything.
Like I said, the same thing happened with Loki and Bor. A weaker character overpowering a stronger.
On the other hand, destroying Sentry what 3 times heads up doesn't exactly make that sneak attack look like the deciding factor in raw power...He got straight knocked out. Bringing that up doesn't help your case of his resistance or durability.
That arc wasn't a clear indication that he was more powerful.
When the only thing he didn't try (that we know of) was matter manip, that doesn't make it massive levels of PIS/CIS. It'd be like saying Thor not doing a Godblast made that scene massive levels of pis/cis.
In fact, why didn't MM just destroy Sentry again if we're going to bring up PIS/CIS? His powers still worked on other things, and we seen him do it 3 times in the same story... plus it's his whole thing.
Kay. He still used his powers to own Thor+Surfer+Tony+Cap easily, and that's the point-- Sentry overpowered an even stronger incarnation of Owen then the one who has already owned Thor at his own game: molecule manipulation. He didn't just one-shot Owen from behind like in the Bor/Loki analogy you're using. Sentry initially warped Owen himself a bit(Owen was shocked that Sentry could even do this)--held him in a stasis until Owen did his bidding(over a full page)--then atomized him. Effortlessly.
It was very clear to me. I could post a shit-ton of scans showcasing what *usually* happens when a weaker character tries to fight a stronger character... It rarely ever ends well for the former. That's why I believe that if Owen would have really been more powerful, Sentry wouldn't have been able to blatantly outdo him. /shrug
Sentry utilized molecule manipulation offensively 2 times in the very same arc(one of those times was only a few pages before he was 'beaten' by the team of heroes)-- and then didn't even attempt using it on any of the heroes? Please, that's blatant CIS/PIS. Thor, on the other hand, has only used an actual Godblast like, what? 3-4 times in his 50+ year history? So no, it's not quite the same imo.
Perhaps Owen's powers no longer worked on Sentry at that point? Dunno.
Originally posted by Galan007
The way I read it:
Sentry/Void was simply that powerful. Barring ridiculous PIS/CIS(of which was prevalent throughout Siege), he should have been capable of effortlessly killing droves of heralds without much effort-- Loki notwithstanding.
Then I guess he rages above the other Skyfathers.
Who managed to deal with Thor might I add.
But I was that was a very specific brand of PIS that took place a few panels after, right? same writer and so on.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympusmhmm
Sentry definitely seems to think Thor just straight up killed him.
Bendis' interview overwrites it.
At least according to the Sentry-crew.
Originally posted by Galan007He destroyed him like 2 pages before he "learned" this skill...
Owen destroyed Sentry 3 times before he(Sentry) learned to apply molecule manipulation offensively. Once Sentry finally learned this skill, Owen was nothing.Kay. He still used his powers to own Thor+Surfer+Tony+Cap easily, and that's the point-- Sentry overpowered an even stronger incarnation of Owen then the one who has already owned Thor at his own game: molecule manipulation. He didn't just one-shot Owen from behind like in the Bor/Loki analogy you're using. Sentry initially warped Owen himself a bit(Owen was shocked that Sentry could even do this)--held him in a stasis until Owen did his bidding(over a full page)--then atomized him. Effortlessly.
It was very clear to me. I could post a shit-ton of scans showcasing what *usually* happens when a weaker character tries to fight a stronger character... It rarely ever ends well for the former. That's why I believe that if Owen would have really been more powerful, Sentry wouldn't have been able to blatantly outdo him. /shrug
Sentry utilized molecule manipulation offensively 2 times in the very same arc(one of those times was only a few pages before he was 'beaten' by the team of heroes)-- and then didn't even attempt using it on any of the heroes? Please, that's blatant CIS/PIS. Thor, on the other hand, has only used an actual Godblast like, what? 3-4 times in his 50+ year history? So no, it's not quite the same imo.
Perhaps Owen's powers no longer worked on Sentry at that point? Dunno.
Just because he learned to control organic molecules, that doesn't make him more powerful. He effortlessly took apart Cap's shield, Mjolnir, and Surfer's board. You think we can apply that to Sentry just because you think his molecular control would have been stronger? Where does it end at that point? Should we apply every feat of MM's to Sentry's as well while we're at it?
Either way, MM's durability hasn't been shown to be the best, and he has iirc absolutely no instances of resisting matter manip.
Sentry ensnared him from behind while applying his powers before Owen had a chance to react. We don't know how MM could have defended against it had he been, you know, ready. If he had some warning, would Sentry have been able to trap him so easily, etc? What we do know though, is if Sentry applies his powers to MM while MM isn't paying attention in the least to Sentry, he can beat him.
And I could show a shit ton of instances where a weaker character beats a stronger by cheapshotting them. In fact, I could probably show you a bunch of scans of weaker sorcerers capturing Dr Strange via the element of surprise.
OK, you're assuming he used it on Loki, then what was the other time in that arc? Also on Loki, he literally impaled Loki and then surrounded his entire body with his currently formless body and then reformed after he destroyed him. That doesn't scream of matter manip to me.
5-8 actually.
Or perhaps he didn't try to attack him like what was shown. Blatant PIS I guess?
Really at the end. Him destroying MM doesn't mean he can simply destroy Thor. Not that he needs it to beat 'heralds', but still. And assuming his defensive ability equals his offensive is baseless.
And I find it really hard to believe he can beat Hulk with this tactic for that matter.
Though he still wins. Wait, nevermind. Worldbreaker. Uh dunno who wins then.