Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I think Intrepid's point is that it was probably a peak performance for Mace. Like how Kenobi defeating Maul and Opress was a peak performance for him.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
1. Uh, Palpatine was forcing Mace back the entire time and killed Fisto while dueling Mace at the same time.
He forces Windu back until the Jedi Master sinks fully into vaapad, and then Windu eventually pushes him back.
Nobody here is arguing that baseline Windu > Palpatine. We're arguing that Windu + vaapad + shatterpoint > Palpatine.
2. Because people try and use the fight and the ''impasse'' to show to Mace is Plagueis' superior, but to only pick out the ''impasse'' and leave out the drastic amp (which was because his love for the Republic was shattered, not because of Vaapad, by the way) is annoying/stupid.
Um, vaapad + shatterpoint will also work against Plagueis. Especially late-in-life Plagueis, with his whole breathing apparatus weakness that shatterpoint will reveal (if it isn't already obvious).
3. Four-five pages back or so.
...alright, sorry, but I'm not finding your evidence for you.
4. That's the problem. That's how it is in the movies. It's full of PIS. We can't do nothing about it. I've given you examples of Jedi/Sith failed to grab the opportunity of a simple kill,
I'm not arguing that it isn't sheer Lucas-stupidity for Windu to do a silly overhand hack.
I'm arguing that it's sheer fan stupidity to think that Palpatine is simultaneously smart enough to perfectly manipulate and throw a fight, and dumb enough to assume that said PIS would exist, thereby succeeding on sheer luck.
Originally posted by Master Han
He forces Windu back until the Jedi Master sinks fully into vaapad, and then Windu eventually pushes him back.Nobody here is arguing that baseline Windu > Palpatine. We're arguing that Windu + vaapad + shatterpoint > Palpatine.
Um, vaapad + shatterpoint will also work against Plagueis. Especially late-in-life Plagueis, with his whole breathing apparatus weakness that shatterpoint will reveal (if it isn't already obvious).
...alright, sorry, but I'm not finding your evidence for you.
I'm not arguing that it isn't sheer Lucas-stupidity for Windu to do a silly overhand hack.
I'm arguing that it's sheer [b]fan
stupidity to think that Palpatine is simultaneously smart enough to perfectly manipulate and throw a fight, and dumb enough to assume that said PIS would exist, thereby succeeding on sheer luck. [/B]
2. But it wasn't due to Vaapad that they reached an impasse (Vaapad never helped him against Dooku, Bulq or Ventress), it was because his love for the Republic was shattered (according to a sourcebook, of which I've forgotten its name, regular-Vaapad-Mace can't even see Sidious).
3. Mace hasn't just realized that his beloved Republic have been corupt, so he will not fight Plagueis as he fought Sidious.
4. It's pretty goddamn clear. How can you not see it?
5. No one said that. Palpatine was risking his life. Was it the risk worth it? Definitely.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
1. Pretty sure Mace never pushed him back except when he disarmed him.
Watch the battle again; Sidious retreats with a look of desperation.
2. But it wasn't due to Vaapad that they reached an impasse (Vaapad never helped him against Dooku, Bulq or Ventress), it was because his love for the Republic was shattered (according to a sourcebook, of which I've forgotten its name, regular-Vaapad-Mace can't even see Sidious).
What are you talking about?
How would his love of the Republic being shattered...make him stronger? 😕
And your source contradicts the RotS novelization.
Furthermore, you're conceding your own argument by admitting that Palpatine did not throw the fight.
3. Mace hasn't just realized that his beloved Republic have been corupt, so he will not fight Plagueis as he fought Sidious.
The RotS novelization and Lucas make it clear that vaapad Windu is on Sidious's level, and therefore above Plagueis, who was never really a warrior.
4. It's pretty goddamn clear. How can you not see it?
What, your evidence? Why can't you just post it again?
5. No one said that. Palpatine was risking his life. Was it the risk worth it? Definitely. [/B]
Palpatine was allegedly stupidly risking his life by relying on the assumption that Windu would be a dumbass. How did he know that Windu was a dumbass? You still haven't answered my "how did he know?" question, because he didn't.
Originally posted by Master Han
So yeah, it's safe to say that Windu + vaapad + shatterpoint > Palpatine.
No. Maybe Mace was better with sabers, but Sidious was able to destroy him with his FL or TK. Mace wasn't even able to dodge Sora's push.
And in novel it isn't clear that Mace won saber duel. He sensed some fear, but it was Anakin's fear.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Alright. Mace feels Anakin in the Force:Feeling for its shatterpoint.
He found a knot of fault lines in the shadow's future; he chose the largest fracture and followed it back to the here and the now... And it led him, astonishingly, to a man standing frozen in the slashed-open doorway. Mace had no need to look; the presence in the Force was familiar, and was as uplifting as sunlight breaking through a thunderhead.
The chosen one was here.
Mace feels the shadow's (Palpatine's) shatterpoint and acts on it:
He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. Easily, almost effortlessly, he turned the shadow's fear into a weapon: he angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge.
Out in the wind. Out with the lightning. Out on a rain-slicked ledge above a half-kilometer drop.
Out where the shadow's fear made it hesitate. Out where the shadow's fear turned some of its Force-powered speed into a Force-powered grip on the slippery permacrete.
Out where Mace could flick his blade in one precise arc and slash the shadow's lightsaber in half.
Mace says that Palpatine was defeated by his own fear:
Now the shadow was only Palpatine: old and shrunken, thinning hair bleached white by time and care, face lined with exhaustion.
"For all your power, you are no Jedi. All you are, my lord," Mace said evenly, staring past his blade, "is under arrest."
"Do you see, Anakin? Do you?" Palpatine's voice once again had the broken cadence of a frightened old man's. "Didn't I warn you of the Jedi and their treason?"
"Save your twisted words, my lord. There are no politicians here. The Sith will never regain control of the Republic. It's over. You've lost." Mace leveled his blade. "You lost for the same reason the Sith always lose: defeated by your own fear."
Palpatine says it wasn't his own fear:
"Fool," he said.
He lifted his arms, his robes of office spreading wide into raptor's wings, his hands hooking into talons.
"Fool!" His voice was a shout of thunder. "Do you think the fear you feel is mine?"
Mace feels that it wasn't Palpatine's fear at all, but Anakin's:
He felt Anakin's leap from the office floor to the ledge, felt his approach behind-And Palpatine was not afraid. Mace could feel it: he wasn't worried at all.
That should be sufficient.
I agree with this.
Originally posted by Zett
No. Maybe Mace was better with sabers, but Sidious was able to destroy him with his FL or TK. Mace wasn't even able to dodge Sora's push.
Firstly, if Palpatine could "destroy" Windu with Force lightning, whatever happened to his face?
Secondly, you can't typically "destroy" someone with pure TK without either a massive power disparity, the element of surprise, or clever use of projectiles. That's why Yoda doesn't just wtfpwn Dooku with the Force every time they engage.
And in novel it isn't clear that Mace won saber duel. He sensed some fear, but it was Anakin's fear.I agree with this.
Being generous and ignoring the fact that the dialogue central to your point don't appear in the higher-canon film, this doesn't prove that Palpatine lost on purpose. Yet again, you're suggesting that he somehow, magically knew that Windu would not immediately lunge in and cut off his head.
Originally posted by pencilcrayon
He dies at Plagueis.
With full rest, he makes it to Yoda. Plagueis isn't as combat oriented as Palpatine.
As long as some of the jokers on this site are abandoning the theory that Sids staged the entire fight and wasn't trying to kill Mace then I'm okay with it. If people believe Sids is above Mace most of the time... while I don't agree.. I'm okay with it. Just don't try and make up theories based on sloppy lose conjecture and pass it off as a fact. Sids was trying to kill Mace and he failed at doing so, and in fact, got overpowered for his troubles.
Originally posted by Master Han
Watch the battle again; Sidious retreats with a look of desperation.
Originally posted by Master Han
What are you talking about?How would his love of the Republic being shattered...make him stronger? 😕
Originally posted by Master Han
And your source contradicts the RotS novelization.
Originally posted by Master Han
Furthermore, [b]you're conceding your own argument by admitting that Palpatine did not throw the fight. [/B]
Originally posted by Master Han
The RotS novelization and Lucas make it clear that vaapad Windu is on Sidious's level,
Originally posted by Master Han
and therefore above Plagueis, who was never really a warrior.
Originally posted by Master Han
What, your evidence? Why can't you just post it again?
Originally posted by Master Han
Palpatine was allegedly [b]stupidly risking his life by relying on the assumption that Windu would be a dumbass. How did he know that Windu was a dumbass? You still haven't answered my "how did he know?" question, because he didn't. [/B]
...
...
That's inconsistency for you (a continuing problem with Star Wars). Lucas line-edited the novelization, pretty sure he (and we shouldn't either) give five shits about that.
Originally posted by Master Han
Firstly, if Palpatine could "destroy" Windu with Force lightning, whatever happened to his face?Secondly, you can't typically "destroy" someone with pure TK without either a [b]massive
power disparity, the element of surprise, or clever use of projectiles. That's why Yoda doesn't just wtfpwn Dooku with the Force every time they engage.
[/B]
I'm not sure about his face. I believe, that Palpatine's face was just a mask.
And yes, Yoda couldn't wtfpwn Dooku. But you must remeber, that Dooku was more powerful with the force then Mace. Dooku was untouchable in the force for people like Sora. Mace wasn't.
And Sidious was holding back, when he used FL against Mace.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
But I'm not. You've twisted the subject enitrely, and I'm not saying that Windu beat Sidious through his love of the Republic, I'm saying that the impasse was reached through his love of the Republic.
An impasse that implies a measure of equality; yet you had earlier claimed that Palpatine was so massively faster than Windu, he could have defended himself while the Jedi Master's blade was inches from his face.
Are you still trying to peddle the unsubstantiated theory that Palps threw the entire fight and wasn't trying to kill Mace? Hoopefully that illogical silly ship has sailed already.
Intre is right about Windu was fighting better and with more focus because the republic was at stake. The novel does make this point. That said, there is nothing to believe he couldn't still beat Sids with Vaapad and Shatterpoint... it just won't be as easily. Basically it just really focused Mace I woudl say and made him go all out. It didn't amp his stats really.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
And? I have never seen anyone bring up a counter-argument like the one you have. It's not my job to explain the inconsistencies, neither is it yours or Stover's.
Who are you responding to? 😕
That Palpatine is much faster than Windu is your contention, not ours, and not the canon's. Yet you seem to have accepted the "impasse" statement, which blatantly contradicts your "trololol Palpatine could have pwned Windu at any moment, even with his ass on the ground" argument.