Mace Windu runs the gauntlet!

Originally posted by Intrepid37
If you're refering to ''impasse'', the ''impasse'' was noted before the text I quoted.

I see. So you're assuming that, by describing Palpatine as a "blur", he's suggesting that he's outmatched, even though the text explicitly describes them as equals, and [b]also describes Windu as a blur.

Given Sidious' far superior precognition, speed and power, not to mention lightning, one would be ignorant to think he wouldn't be able to defend himself.

Um, even if Sidious has these advantages over a vaapad amped Windu (even though the text says the contrary), he still isn't fast enough to somehow stop Windu whose blade is inches from his face.

That takes a massive disparity in ability that we just don't see.

Intrepid is just a Sids apologist... they don't like that Mace beat him... so they need to come up with excuses to explain it away.

he also has no idea what proving a negative means... it's HIS job to prove Sids never intended to kill Mace... There is literally NOTHING.. NOTHING in that regard. But he's tried to twit it and go.. well there isn't any proof he didnt.. That isn't how it works. The burden of proof is on you.

Here are the facts... Lucas OUTRIGHT says Mace OVERPOWERED Sids.. Period. If this thoery of Inter and others were valid.. you'd think at SOME DAMN POINT.. It would've been mentioned ****ING ONCE that Sids wasn't tryin to kill Mace and throwing the whole Fight. Lucas right ther ein his commentary could've said... Mace didn't really overpower him.. Sids was throwing the fight. Guess what HE DIDN'T. The novel could've said that.. guess what IT DIDN'T> It said Mace used shatterpoint ot gain the advantage. It said Vaapad made them fight as EQUALs.. NO MENTION OF SIDS THROWING THE FIGHT. Time after time they mention that Vaapd is making Mace his equal.

To even suggest Sids threw that entire fight and wasnt trying to kill mace is beyond stupid and illogical. not ony would he not know if Mace would even try and kill him once he disarms himself... but why would he risk such a thing if his whole point was staying alive? He wouldn't. He was clearly shown to be trying to kill Mace and the highest form of canon... lucas says Mace OVERPOWERED him. It's really that simple. No amount of butt hurt changes that.

Originally posted by Master Han
I see. So you're assuming that, by describing Palpatine as a "blur", he's suggesting that he's outmatched, even though the text explicitly describes them as equals, and [b]also describes Windu as a blur. [/B]

Originally posted by Master Han
Um, even if Sidious has these advantages over a vaapad amped Windu (even though the text says the contrary), he still isn't fast enough to somehow stop Windu [b]whose blade is inches from his face.

That takes a massive disparity in ability that we just don't see. [/B]

Wow. Like, totally chill, dude.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
That was a little confusing.

Given his superior precognition, sure he is. Besides, this is getting a little off-subject.

Your argument has devolved into suggesting that Palpatine is so powerful, he could have stopped Windu at any moment, had the Jedi decided to kill him.

Yet the very RotS novelization you cite makes it clear that the two were equals in speed, after Windu had sunken into vaapad.

And yet the disparity needed to be able to deflect a lightsaber inches from your face, while you yourself are unarmed, is enormous.

But it doesn't make it clear that they were equals in speed, otherwise Mace wouldn't have seen Palpatine as a blur.

Really, you've posted nothing that debunks the theory of Palpatine holding back: that Palpatine didn't know that Mace would choose not to strike him down (which he would, actually; according to a sourcebook of which I have forgotten its name (scan/quote will come later, if that's okay), Mace himself had moved in to assassinate him, not kill him, which Palpatine was well aware of.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
But it doesn't make it clear that they were equals in speed, otherwise Mace wouldn't have seen Palpatine as a blur.

Unless he was fighting faster than his perceptions could keep up with.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
But it doesn't make it clear that they were equals in speed, otherwise Mace wouldn't have seen Palpatine as a blur.

Really, you've posted nothing that debunks the theory of Palpatine holding back: that Palpatine didn't know that Mace would choose not to strike him down (which he would, actually; according to a sourcebook of which I have forgotten its name (scan/quote will come later, if that's okay), Mace himself had moved in to assassinate him, not kill him, which Palpatine was well aware of.

?

Just because that Windu saw Sidious as a blur does not mean he wasn't moving as fast as well. Any stuff has been posted that debunks your theory, namely Lucas's quote.

Not really.

Sure it does. It confirms Windu overpowered Sidious and that Sidious attempts to destroy Mace.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
But it doesn't make it clear that they were equals in speed, otherwise Mace wouldn't have seen Palpatine as a blur.

Uh, what?

They're moving and fighting in non-uniform velocities, and thus they will appear as blurs to one another, by simple vector differences, unless if they mirror one another's moves perfectly.

Furthermore, the very novelization passage confirms that they were equals, so I don't know why you're still arguing the point.

Really, you've posted nothing that debunks the theory of Palpatine holding back:

I'm being generous by assuming the burden of proof, when it lies solely on yourself.

that Palpatine didn't know that Mace would choose not to strike him down (which he would, actually; according to a sourcebook of which I have forgotten its name (scan/quote will come later, if that's okay), Mace himself had moved in to assassinate him, not kill him, which Palpatine was well aware of.

...but now I'm going to pull it out: I don't need to prove that Palpatine "didn't" know anything.

No one said that Windu never overpowered Sidious (as I have said, we know as much from the movie itself)... but the reason for why he did it? Lucas didn't specify in his statement..

Burden of proof, Intrepid, burden of proof.

HE DOESN'T NEED TO SPECIFY AT ALL. We don't need to prove a negative. If he didn't specify we take the statement AS IS... MACE OVERPOWERED SIDs.. PERIOD. If he wanted to Lucas could've said... SIDS THREW THE FIGHT HE REALLY WASN'T disarmed or overpowered. HE DIDN'T. He could've said Sids was never trying to kill mace but it was just for show.. HE DIDN'T. He could've had the novel say the whole fight was a charade... HE DIDN'T have any such lines included. You literally have no ground to stand on except tryign to expalin away Sids loss with your own conjecture with nothing to support it. We don't need to prove your case.. YOU NEED to prove that Lucas meant something other than what he plainly states while at the same time explaining why when given the chance in his commentary and thenovel never bothered to EVER talk about this very important plot point.. ya know... Sids throwing the entire fight. NEVER mentions that EVER.... odd eh. That thoery is complete garbage.. sids was beaten and overpowered. Period.

Originally posted by Master Han
Uh, what?

They're moving and fighting in non-uniform velocities, and thus they will appear as blurs to one another, by simple vector differences, unless if they mirror one another's moves perfectly.

Originally posted by Master Han
Furthermore, [b]the very novelization passage confirms that they were equals, so I don't know why you're still arguing the point. [/B]

Originally posted by Master Han
I'm being generous by assuming the burden of proof, when it lies solely on yourself.

Originally posted by Master Han
...but now I'm going to pull it out: I don't need to prove that Palpatine "didn't" know anything.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Blurring motions happen when one moves too fast for the eye to properly follow: when Sidious moves fast enough to appear a blur to Mace's eyes, it shows us that he simply moved faster than Mace.

No, this isn't true at all, especially since Jedi fight with the Force more than they do with their eyes, and especially since the novelization contradicts your conclusion.

If you want to say that, then I can point out that Mace moves too fast for Anakin's eye to see: Anakin is noticeably faster than Bulq, Ventress, Dooku and Tiin, all of whom can see Mace. Really, according to this, Palpatine would roflstomp Mace since the latter wouldn't even be able to see him.

😆

So you concede that Windu > Skywalker.

And then you proceed to establish a circular chain of logic, that leads to Anakin > Windu?

You do realize that your sophistic pandering does nothing to counter the fact that the very novelization passage you cite contradicts your contention, right?

----

(and this is ignoring the fact that the "blur" quote is clearly contradicted by the film)

I've given it already, you're just denying it.

No, your argument is defensive, ie., trying to establish that Palpatine could have faked it.

I never said you should, I'm saying that even if he didn't know that Mace wouldn't try and kill him it hardly renders the theory about Palpatine holding back invalid. [/B]

It only does not if you can establish that Palpatine is many times faster than Windu, to the point of being able to deflect a lightsaber strike starting inches from his face.

Originally posted by Master Han
No, this isn't true at all, especially since Jedi fight with the Force more than they do with their eyes, and especially since [b]the novelization contradicts your conclusion. [/B]

Originally posted by Master Han
So you concede that Windu > Skywalker.

Originally posted by Master Han
And then you proceed to establish a circular chain of logic, that leads to Anakin > Windu?

You do realize that your sophistic pandering does nothing to counter the fact that the very novelization passage you cite contradicts your contention, right?

Originally posted by Master Han
(and this is ignoring the fact that the "blur" quote is clearly contradicted by the film)

Originally posted by Master Han
No, your argument is defensive, ie., trying to establish that Palpatine [b]could have faked it. [/B]

Originally posted by Master Han
It only does not if you can establish that Palpatine is many times faster than Windu, to the point of being able to deflect a lightsaber strike starting inches from his face.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
The novelization contradicts nothing. Regardless, if you want to say that Mace was fighting as fast as Sidious, that'd be due to a drastic amp.

No? 😐

Actually, it outright suggests that contention.

It states that the two were equals, and that the fight could have gone on "forever".

And the ''impasse'' quote isn't?

Well, if you look at the films, Windu is winning, as he drives a desperate-faced Palpatine backwards.

And I've provided enough proof for said argument.

No, every response you've made has been defensive.

Given his superior precognition abilities, he'd feel that Mace would attempt a strike (and Palpatine knew he wouldn't attempt a strike, regardless). [/B]

Even if he had "superior precognition abilities" (evidence = zero), his feeling danger would not save him from a lightsaber to the face.

Also note that, IIRC, when he is disarmed, he scurries backwards and even turns his back to Windu on one occasion.

1. And?

2. Mace was winning when he and Palpatine felt Anakin in the Force (concidence?)

3. English isn't my prefered language. What do you mean?

4. Yes, it would. He'd know that Mace would strike him before Mace did it, and this is ignoring that Sidious knew Mace wouldn't try and strike him.

1. And your claim that Palpatine was "toying" with Windu and was in control is wrong.

2. Uh, the two were already dueling evenly by then.

3. I mean that you haven't proven any of your contentions, you've merely suggested that they could be true.

4. Prove that Palpatine "knew" Windu wouldn't try to strike him.