Mace Windu runs the gauntlet!

It appears that we're ignoring the fact that Lucas makes it clear in his commentaries that Windu legitimately overpowers Palpatine.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Because, as Mace found out, ''Palpatine trusts Skywalker''.

How does this have anything to do with Palpatine's magically knowing that Windu won't lunge in and slash open his neck, like he should have done? You know, with this happening long before Anakin is within striking distance.

Mace? No.

Yes. Mace Windu > baseline Anakin in RotS. Lucas says you have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with Palpatine; no mention of Anakin.

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Rolling your eyes isn't a valid rebuttal to the fact that your argument is predicated on Palpatine magically knowing everything.

Refering to a situation of PIS is hardly a convincing argument.

Do you understand the concept of suspension of disbelief? Stop appealing to out of universe authorial license to justify your theory that Palpatine has read the movie script, and knows that Windu won't just kill him in a millisecond, which he can.

Originally posted by Master Han
Rolling your eyes isn't a valid rebuttal to the fact that your argument is predicated on Palpatine [b]magically knowing everything. [/B]

Isn't Palpatine's 'magically knowing everything' a major part of the ROTJ plot...

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Isn't Palpatine's 'magically knowing everything' a major part of the ROTJ plot...

Grand-Moff Gav Are You With Me Or Wat

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Isn't Palpatine's 'magically knowing everything' a major part of the ROTJ plot...

Except that he failed to foresee Vader's redemption, or Luke's rejection of the dark side, or the ground team's getting help from the ewoks, or Lando and co. blowing up the Death Star, or himself getting tossed down a shaft.

He couldn't even detect Luke's presence, IIRC, until Vader informed him.

Originally posted by Master Han
It appears that we're ignoring the fact that Lucas makes it clear in his commentaries that Windu legitimately overpowers Palpatine.

Originally posted by Master Han
How does this have anything to do with Palpatine's magically knowing that Windu won't lunge in and slash open his neck, like he should have done? You know, with this happening long before Anakin is within striking distance.

Originally posted by Master Han
Yes. Mace Windu > baseline Anakin in RotS. Lucas says you have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with Palpatine; no mention of Anakin.

Originally posted by Master Han
Rolling your eyes isn't a valid rebuttal to the fact that your argument is predicated on Palpatine [b]magically knowing everything. [/B]

Originally posted by Intrepid37
That's pretty stupid. No one ever said that Palpatine would know how the exact fight would go.

Originally posted by Master Han
Do you understand the concept of suspension of disbelief? Stop appealing to out of universe authorial license to justify your theory that Palpatine has read the movie script, and knows that Windu won't just kill him in a millisecond, which he [b]can. [/B]

Originally posted by Intrepid37
That's pretty stupid. No one ever said that Palpatine would know how the exact fight would go.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
And it appears that you're twisting the statement. Lucas says that Windu overpowered Palpatine, which he did... in fact, I could come to that conclusion by watching the movie. He never, however, said how or why he overpowered him.

From an out of universe perspective, Lucas isn't the type of director to insert some subtle conspiracy theory and then fail to ever make it clear that he did so.

That's pretty stupid. No one ever said that Palpatine would know how the exact fight would go.

It has nothing to do with knowing how the exact fight would go, please don't strawman me.

According to your theory, he intentionally puts himself at Windu's mercy.

HOW DOES HE KNOW WINDU WON'T IMMEDIATELY KILL HIM?

But then again, Dooku has fought Windu as an equal (and beaten him) and Anakin has fought Dooku as an equal (and beaten him).

Firstly, Dooku has been surpassed by Windu by RotS.

Secondly, Anakin only defeats Dooku after tapping into some one-time "one with the Force" deus ex machina, as described in the novelization.

Originally posted by Master Han
From an out of universe perspective, Lucas isn't the type of director to insert some subtle conspiracy theory and then fail to ever make it clear that he did so.

Originally posted by Master Han
According to your theory, he intentionally puts himself at Windu's mercy.

Originally posted by Master Han
[b]HOW DOES HE KNOW WINDU WON'T IMMEDIATELY KILL HIM? [/B]

YouTube video

Originally posted by Master Han
Firstly, Dooku has been surpassed by Windu by RotS.

Originally posted by Master Han
Secondly, Anakin only defeats Dooku after tapping into some one-time "one with the Force" deus ex machina, as described in the novelization.

Originally posted by Master Han
Except that he failed to foresee Vader's redemption, or Luke's rejection of the dark side, or the ground team's getting help from the ewoks, or Lando and co. blowing up the Death Star, or himself getting tossed down a shaft.

He couldn't even detect Luke's presence, IIRC, until Vader informed him.

A fair point... You could say his overconfidence was his weakness? (Perhaps explaining why he, (if he indeed did) threw the fight? He had some premonition, of the extended dialogue distracting Mace, and it didn't occur to him his vision was flawed?

Plus, people breaking into extended dialogue before killing someone is a common problem, one Palpatine had himself...

Originally posted by Intrepid37 The only thing you're doing is adding your own opinion onto his statement.

No, that's exactly what you're doing. Occam's Razor tell us that when Windu defeated Palpatine, he did so because he caught him off guard and kicked his lightsaber out of his hands. It does not tell us that Palpatine had concocted a convoluted and absurd plot that only worked on sheer luck.

Correct.

When? I'd appreciate it if you could point out the time of what you're talking about.

YouTube video

2:01 and onwards.

Firstly, he could have stabbed him right after kicking him.
Then, while Palpatine is scurrying away in fear (why wouldn't Windu sense his deception?), Windu could have lunged in and stabbed him.
...
even at the very end, Windu could have simply done a quick, efficient stab to the heart, instead of a pointlessly telegraphed, overhand slash that leaves himself open and exposed.

Prove it.

Well, firstly there's the circular logic that he is > Palpatine.

Secondly, he's equals with Dooku by Dark Rendezvous, and while Windu gets stronger over the course of TCW, the RotS novelization implies that Dooku's age is finally getting to him; either way, Windu's younger age means that he'll advance faster than Dooku, via diminishing returns.

I'm well aware, but I can refer you to Anakin's draw with Dooku in the TCW movie and his fight in S4 in which he forced Dooku on the defense the entire fight.

That scene makes no sense whatsoever, given that Dooku is confident taking the duo on at the same time in RotS, and Obi Wan says "this time we'll take him together", rather than "HA! Anakin already kicked your ass before!"

Likely, Anakin was "in the zone" in that instance as well.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
That's pretty stupid. No one ever said that Palpatine would know how the exact fight would go.

I think thats his point. If its so risky that Windu could kill him any number of way, then it makes no sense for Palps to throw the fight and risk getting killed.

Originally posted by Master Han
No, that's exactly what you're doing. Occam's Razor tell us that when Windu defeated Palpatine, he did so because he caught him off guard and kicked his lightsaber out of his hands. It does not tell us that Palpatine had concocted a convoluted and absurd plot that only worked on sheer luck.

👆

Originally posted by Master Han
No, that's exactly what you're doing. Occam's Razor tell us that when Windu defeated Palpatine, he did so because he caught him off guard and kicked his lightsaber out of his hands. It does not tell us that Palpatine had concocted a convoluted and absurd plot that only worked on sheer luck.

Can you really apply Occam's Razor to a scenario involving complex personalities who, occasionally, do not act in the way that is logically appropriate?

For example, if I eat a cake someone might say. Per Occam's Razor he eat the cake because he was hungry. However, in actual fact I eat the cake because, even though I didn't like it, I didn't want me mortal nemesis to get some.
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It is still exactly what Intrepid is doing. It's too risky, and Palpatine would never risk his life so absurdly.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav

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Anyway, Lucas says Sidious overpowered Windu and that Sidious tries to destroy Windu. That pretty much contradicts the idea that Sidious threw the entire fight.

Originally posted by ares834

😉

Anyway, Lucas says Sidious overpowered Windu and that Sidious tries to destroy Windu. That pretty much contradicts the idea that Sidious threw the entire fight.

Ares Are You Joining Me.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Can you really apply Occam's Razor to a scenario involving complex personalities who, occasionally, do not act in the way that is logically appropriate?

For example, if I eat a cake someone might say. Per Occam's Razor he eat the cake because he was hungry. However, in actual fact I eat the cake because, even though I didn't like it, I didn't want me mortal nemesis to get some.
😕

But we can't assume that you just wanted to be a dick, unless if we have evidence to suggest it. It's a matter of probability; you could have had such schemes, but out of 100 times...what are the chances, without specific parameters? (IMO)

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
It is still exactly what Intrepid is doing. It's too risky, and Palpatine would never risk his life so absurdly.

Like the time he never risked his life by assuming that there was no way the rebels could destroy the death star? Or that Vader and Luke wouldn't join together against him? Or the time he assumed Vader would just stand by and let him kill his son?

"Your overconfidence is your weakness..."

Sorry, I think ROTJ quotes win this for Intrepid... sort of, at least.

No. It is absurd to assume Lucas didn't really mean that Windu was overpowering him but in truth that he was falling directly into Sidious' trap. That's just a wild assumption.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Like the time he never risked his life by assuming that there was no way the rebels could destroy the death star? Or that Vader and Luke wouldn't join together against him? Or the time he assumed Vader would just stand by and let him kill his son?

"Your overconfidence is your weakness..."

Sorry, I think ROTJ quotes win this for Intrepid... sort of, at least.

Grand Moff-Gav Wat Up My Loyal Follower You Are Cool

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Like the time he never risked his life by assuming that there was no way the rebels could destroy the death star? Or that Vader and Luke wouldn't join together against him? Or the time he assumed Vader would just stand by and let him kill his son?

"Your overconfidence is your weakness..."

Sorry, I think ROTJ quotes win this for Intrepid... sort of, at least.

But that's a bit of a self-contradicting argument: simultaneously arguing that Palpatine is a genius manipulator that had the entire fight perfectly planned, and that Palpatine is an arrogant fool who just assumed that Windu wouldn't cut his head off.