Originally posted by Nephthys
Personally I think Nyriss tooling Scourge and the Exile at the same time shows she can beat Kenobi. She has extremely powerful Force showings and great lightsaber feats.
In all seriousness, Obi Wan's feats and accolades > Nyrris's. Various credible sources marvel at Kenobi's skills, describing him as perhaps the greatest soresu practitioner in history. There's nothing to suggest that Nyriss is particularly powerful for a council member. Remember that she gets one shotted by Revan like a complete joke.
With her own power.
Nyriss opened up her fight by jumping in between Scourge and the Exile and proceeded to humiliate them at the same time in lightsaber combat, kicking their asses despite them flanking her on both sides. She then absolutely pwned them both with the Force, overpowering them both with a single attack each. This being the woman who soloed an entire Sith Temple and whooped Sion and Traya multiple times each on a potent nexus, plus Scourge who's a Juyo and Soresu master .
Nyriss is a veritable monster.
Originally posted by Nephthys
With her own power.
Kind of makes it even sadder...
Nyriss opened up her fight by jumping in between Scourge and the Exile and proceeded to humiliate them at the same time in lightsaber combat, kicking their asses despite them flanking her on both sides. She then absolutely pwned them both with the Force, overpowering them both with a single attack each.
This is only impressive if Scourge and the Exile are particularly prodigious at this point in time (see later).
Remember that Kenobi has been described as one of the greatest Soresu practitioners to ever live. Matthew Stover particularly elaborates on his combat prowess in the RotS novelization. Basically, going by accolades, he's greater than Nyriss (by a lot). And going by feats, he's held his own and defeated enemies such as Maul and Ventress, both of which are more than capable of taking on two powerful opponents simultaneously.
Also, we should remember that Kenobi is no weakling in the Force, given that he stalemates RotS Anakin in a Force push tug-o-war in their duel.
This being the woman who soloed an entire Sith Temple
I haven’t played the game. Remind me; does she do this alone? And like many things that occur in the game, we can’t know for sure how much of the gameplay mechanics and combat situations we can take literally, because I don’t think you believe she literally takes on hundreds of sith at once, and I’m willing to bet that this isn’t how the events transpire in-game, either.
and whooped Sion and Traya multiple times each,
Sion was effectively immortal and wouldn’t really care if the Exile killed him a lot.
Traya is a powerful haxxed Force user, but there’s nothing to suggest she’s particularly skilled with a saber.
plus Scourge who's a Juyo master.
Obi Wan is above plenty of juyo masters. It’s easy to tell that Scourge at this point isn’t as prestigious within the sith order as Obi Wan is in the Jedi Order by RotS.
Originally posted by Master Han
This is only impressive if Scourge and the Exile are particularly prodigious at this point in time (see later).
Well they are. 😬
The Exile is particularly prodigious, showing the capability to master a lightsaber form in whats seems to be minutes, just through observation of someone using it, and has drained the power of hundreds of slain opponents.
Originally posted by Master Han
Remember that Kenobi has been described as one of [b]the greatest Soresu practitioners to ever live. Matthew Stover particularly elaborates on his combat prowess in the RotS novelization. Basically, going by accolades, he's greater than Nyriss (by a lot). And going by feats, he's held his own and defeated enemies such as Maul and Ventress, both of which are more than capable of taking on two powerful opponents simultaneously.Also, we should remember that Kenobi is no weakling in the Force, given that he stalemates RotS Anakin in a Force push tug-o-war in their duel.[/b]
Yes, I know. You've wanked Kenobi enough in other threads that I'm well aware of his abilities. I don't care. He isn't dominating two extremely powerful opponents like Nyriss did. Yes Maul and Ventress can take on two opponents, but Nyriss beat Scourge and Meetra literally in seconds. Both of whom are extremely powerful and skilled Force Users.
Originally posted by Master Han
I haven’t played the game. Remind me; does she do this alone? And like many things that occur in the game, we can’t know for sure how much of the gameplay mechanics and combat situations we can take literally, because I don’t think you believe she literally takes on hundreds of sith at once, and I’m willing to bet that this isn’t how the events transpire in-game, either.
Yes she did it alone, and she runs in through the front door and needs to get through the temple to get to Sion, so yes she had to fight her way through.
The way I'm describing it is how it transpires. She fights through the temple by herself (after fighting through various monsters to get to it) and then kicks Sions ass multiple times. Then she beats Kraya twice.
The fact that Nyriss is able to so casually defeat Meetra is frankly Dooku level at least imo.
Originally posted by Master Han
Sion was effectively immortal and wouldn’t really care if the Exile killed him a lot.Traya is a powerful haxxed Force user, but there’s nothing to suggest she’s particularly skilled with a saber.
He does. One of the ways to beat him is to just kill him over and over until he gives up.
Traya is canonally more powerful than the Exile and she was on a highly powerful darkside nexus. As for lightsabers she displayed extensive knowledge of all the Forms over the course of the game and after you beat her the first time, cutting off her remaining hand, she levitates 3 lightsabers and fights you with them. As for the Force, right before the fight she killed about 10 Sith assassins at once without even gesturing at them or showing any effort at all.
Originally posted by Master Han
Obi Wan is above plenty of juyo masters. It’s easy to tell that Scourge at this point isn’t as prestigious within the sith order as Obi Wan is in the Jedi Order by RotS.
Yes, I know. The fact is though that Nyriss owned Scourge with ease while fighting Meetra. Even if Kenobi's above Scourge, that doesn't mean he's above Nyriss considering the contemptible ease that she beat him with. Is Kenobi that far above plenty of Juyo masters?
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah I know, but he was still an very powerful and skilled Sith Lord at the time. Beating him that easily is impressive, beating him while beating the Exile (who has quite a bit more to her name) is amazing imo.
Yeah, but that doesn't diminish her accomplishments in Kotor II. That she was humiliated by Nyriss just goes to show the latters power.
The real humiliation was in how much weaker she was than Revan, when she should be his equal. Also she was portrayed as just a Jedi, when in Kotor II she was basically an eldritch abomination in human form whose mere existence made people shit their pants.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, but that doesn't diminish her accomplishments in Kotor II. That she was humiliated by Nyriss just goes to show the latters power.The real humiliation was in how much weaker she was than Revan, when she should be his equal. Also she was portrayed as just a Jedi, when in Kotor II she was basically an eldritch abomination in human form whose mere existence made people shit their pants.
Originally posted by NTJack0
That annoys me too, Exile shouldn't be canon fodder to showcase Revans power.
Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
Kenobi takes it.
Originally posted by Master Han
In all seriousness, Obi Wan's feats and accolades > Nyrris's. Various credible sources marvel at Kenobi's skills, describing him as perhaps the greatest soresu practitioner in history. There's nothing to suggest that Nyriss is particularly powerful for a council member. Remember that she gets one shotted by Revan like a complete joke.
Tinn, Kolar and Fisto were also fine swordsmen at technical level but they were totally outgunned by Sidious due to their relatively much inferior "command of the Force."
Nyriss demonstrated remarkable effectiveness in her duel against two EXPERT swordsmen due to be her relatively superior "command of the Force." She maintained so much pressure on her (formidable) opponents that they were unable to think of going on the offensive against her. I am not sure if Obi-Wan can do wonders in the place of two heavyweights; he can easily fall to Force powers of Nyriss.
Originally posted by Vensai
Nyriss is inferior in saber feats. Not sure about force powers but Kenobi has blocked lightning from Dooku.
What force feats do Scourge and Exile have during the novel?
She outdueled two EXPERT swordsmen simultaneously without much difficulty.
Obi-Wan does have a feat of handling the brothers but Opress is not an EXPERT swordsman and this fight took place in a restrictive setting for the brothers; otherwise, Maul alone could overwhelm Obi-Wan in various settings (Maul, in-fact, overwhelmed Obi-Wan even in the restrictive setting with his Force abilities). Also, Nyriss also have considerable advantage in "command of the Force" aspect in this contest.
Originally posted by Master Han
This is only impressive if Scourge and the Exile are particularly prodigious at this point in time (see later).
Scourge was not at his peak during this time but he was still a heavyweight at this point. Scourge was selected by Sith Emperor himself to help Nyriss in discovering and assassinating the culprits who were trying to assassinate her; Sith Emperor wouldn't pick a chump for such an important task or would he?
SCOURGE WAS AN EXPERT SWORDSMAN; at the Academy even the instructors had been reluctant to face him in the training ring. When the dark side flowed through him, his blade was more than a weapon. It became an extension of his will. (SWTOR: Revan)
Meetra had finished off Sith Trumvirate prior to this encounter. It is obvious that she was immensely experienced at dealing with the threat of Sith at this stage.
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Both Scourge and Meetra are formidable warriors in their own right. Nyriss's superiority over them safely propels her to the level of greatest duelists of the mythos, IMO.
Originally posted by Master Han
Remember that Kenobi has been described as one of the greatest Soresu practitioners to ever live. Matthew Stover particularly elaborates on his combat prowess in the RotS novelization. Basically, going by accolades, he's greater than Nyriss (by a lot). And going by feats, he's held his own and defeated enemies such as Maul and Ventress, both of which are more than capable of taking on two powerful opponents simultaneously.
Also, neither Maul and nor Ventress have demonstrated the capability to nearly WTFpwn heavyweights. Maul's victory over Qui-Gon is impressive but this doesn't proves that he can cut down Scourge in the same manner, let alone the duo of Scourge and Meetra.
Originally posted by Master Han
Also, we should remember that Kenobi is no weakling in the Force, given that he stalemates RotS Anakin in a Force push tug-o-war in their duel.
Originally posted by Master Han
I haven’t played the game. Remind me; does she do this alone? And like many things that occur in the game, we can’t know for sure how much of the gameplay mechanics and combat situations we can take literally, because I don’t think you believe she literally takes on hundreds of sith at once, and I’m willing to bet that this isn’t how the events transpire in-game, either.
Originally posted by Master Han
Sion was effectively immortal and wouldn’t really care if the Exile killed him a lot.Traya is a powerful haxxed Force user, but there’s nothing to suggest she’s particularly skilled with a saber.
Originally posted by Master Han
Obi Wan is above plenty of juyo masters. It’s easy to tell that Scourge at this point isn’t as prestigious within the sith order as Obi Wan is in the Jedi Order by RotS.
Originally posted by Vensai
At the very least, Nyriss doesn't have much durability if Kenobi manages to redirect her lightning back at her a la Mace vs. Sidious.
After all, Yoda forbade Obi-Wan from confronting Sidious because he knew that Obi-Wan would be totally outmatched in that encounter.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Obi-Wan could be exceptional in technical aspect of Form III dueling art but his effectiveness is going to be as great as his "command of the Force" aspect permits him to be in the end.
I don’t see why you assume his command of the Force is drastically inferior to Nyriss’s.
He effortlessly deflects Dooku’s lightning in AotC, stalemates RotS Anakin’s Force push in RotS, and is described as a “vessel of the Force” in the novelization.
Tinn, Kolar and Fisto were also fine swordsmen at technical level but they were totally outgunned by Sidious due to their relatively much inferior "command of the Force."
If you think Nyriss is speedblitzing them Sidious style, I’d point out that Kenobi can actually deflect all of Grievous’s saber strikes simultaneously without giving significant ground.
Nyriss demonstrated remarkable effectiveness in her duel against two EXPERT swordsmen due to be her relatively superior "command of the Force." She maintained so much pressure on her (formidable) opponents that they were unable to think of going on the offensive against her. I am not sure if Obi-Wan can do wonders in the place of two heavyweights; he can easily fall to Force powers of Nyriss.
“expert” swordsmen has quite the wide breadth here, and duelists inferior to Kenobi, such as Grievous and TPM Maul, have taken on more than one master duelist at a time.
And exactly how does she have inferior saber feats?
Even Dooku is impressed by Kenobi’s soresu skills. Also remember that Obi Wan held off and eventually defeated Anakin Skywalker, who Durge, who has centuries of experience, had earlier described as the fastest Jedi he’s ever met.
Notice a fundamental difference in scale here: Kenobi hangs with people described as being the top dogs of all time, whereas Scourge is merely considered exceptionally powerful. It's like comparing the top student in a random high school to Neils Bohr.
She outdueled two EXPERT swordsmen simultaneously without much difficulty.
So what? Obi Wan is above Cin Drallig, who’s the temple battlemaster in the golden age of lightsaber dueling.
Obi-Wan does have a feat of handling the brothers but Opress is not an EXPERT swordsman and this fight took place in a restrictive setting for the brothers; otherwise, Maul alone could overwhelm Obi-Wan in various settings (Maul, in-fact, overwhelmed Obi-Wan even in the restrictive setting with his Force abilities). Also, Nyriss also have considerable advantage in "command of the Force" aspect in this contest.
Um, is Opress not above Ventress? Has Ventress not beaten Kit Fisto? Is Kit Fisto not described as one of the greatest swordsmen the Order ever produced?
Furthermore, Maul alone has defeated two prodigious lightsaber duelists, Qui Gon and Anoon.
Scourge was not at his peak during this time but he was still a heavyweight at this point. Scourge was selected by Sith Emperor himself to help Nyriss in discovering and assassinating the culprits who were trying to assassinate her; Sith Emperor wouldn't pick a chump for such an important task or would he?
I never said Scourge was a chump, but he doesn’t have the prestige and accolades of Kenobi.
SCOURGE WAS AN EXPERT SWORDSMAN; at the Academy even the instructors had been reluctant to face him in the training ring. When the dark side flowed through him, his blade was more than a weapon. It became an extension of his will. (SWTOR: Revan)
I don’t understand your logic here; why do you think “expert swordsmen” is a proper counterargument against a character who’s described as one of the best swordsmen in history?
Meetra had finished off Sith Trumvirate prior to this encounter. It is obvious that she was immensely experienced at dealing with the threat of Sith at this stage.
Yet her showings in Revan are not at all impressive.
Both Scourge and Meetra are formidable warriors in their own right. Nyriss's superiority over them safely propels her to the level of greatest duelists of the mythos, IMO.
No, it really doesn’t. Beating two expert duelists at once isn’t really impressive to someone who’s beaten beings that have tooled two prodigious duelists at once.
Actually no! Scourge and Meetra are not inferior heavyweights then the likes of Obi-Wan. Scourge have much superior kill record then Obi-Wan and Meetra have history of defeating more powerful and dangerous opponents then herself. Meetra's "wound" factor might have played a role in helping her succeed in challenges put forth by Sith Triumvirate but her wound began to heal during the course of the events depicted in KoTOR II and those "Sith monsters" had more then applications of Force Drain under their belt.
Um, her wound hadn’t healed by the end of KOTOR II. That’s how she defeats Nihilus, and presumably Traya. She uses dun moch on Sion, who’s never described as a particularly skilled duelist. She can take out sith monsters…whoopee, what are their feats again?
The Exile is insinuated to be around Scourge’s level. Scourge at this point is regarded within the sith empire as being skilled and having great potential, but he’s still ordered around and looked down on by members of the dark council. Kenobi is one of the most powerful members of the RotS council. There’s a difference between expert and legendary.
Also, neither Maul and nor Ventress have demonstrated the capability to nearly WTFpwn heavyweights. Maul's victory over Qui-Gon is impressive but this doesn't proves that he can cut down Scourge in the same manner, let alone the duo of Scourge and Meetra.
Um, you have a different definition of “heavyweight”. Scourge in Revan is a heavyweight in that he’s probably within the top 1% of his time. Kenobi by RotS is a heavyweight in that he’s within the top 0.1% of all time. Again, nobody in the novel puts him even within the top 20 of the sith order.
Oh, and should I point out his almost getting his ass kicked by a bounty hunter?
Obi-Wan have that showing but this doesn't proves that he cannot be undermined with Force powers. As an example, Dooku have humiliated him with his Force powers on multiple occasions. Therefore, a Force-user, with (decent) command of the Force, can find or sense a loophole in defenses of Obi-Wan and exploit it. And Nyriss certainly fits the bill in this case.
RoDV suggests that Dooku pulls off the choke because he’s faster. Dooku being a legendary duelist and a temple TK instructor.
Meetra have demonstrated the capability to hold her own against overwhelming odds. Sion have been canonically regarded as "exceedingly difficult to kill" and Traya have been canonically proclaimed to be stronger then Meetra. Therefore, either Meetra is an extraordinarily talented warrior or knows lot of tricks to undermine her opponents.
Do you seriously think “exceedingly difficult to kill” is a worthwhile accolade?
After all, Yoda forbade Obi-Wan from confronting Sidious because he knew that Obi-Wan would be totally outmatched in that encounter.
Uh…Sidious’s lightning pushed Yoda to his limits. Revan turned Nyriss into a pile of ash with her own lightning like she was a joke.