Originally posted by Master Han
Pwning two beings simultaneously is only conditionally impressive. Scourge and Meetra are "extremely skilled swordsmen", but such an descriptor has an [b]enormous breadth of connotations from above-average to Palpatine level. It's a rather arbitrary leap in logic to argue that Nyriss can take Kenobi simply because she can defeat two "powerful" opponents (note that Kenobi has both taken on Maul and Oppress and two/three magnaguards, which are each capable of killing Jedi Masters).[/B]
Which is why I base my conclusion not on the fact that they're extremely skilled swordsmen, but on their feats. I merely pointed out they're extremely skilled.
Uh, no, that's impossible.The only manner in which you could put Nyriss on Dooku's level is if you put Revan above Yoda/Palpatine, since either one is markedly above Dooku, but Tyrannus could still give either one a decent battle. Nyriss, meanwhile, is "nothing" next to a drug-addled Revan.
As Neph said, they are Yoda/Palpatine level. Overall, Revan might not be able to defeat either of them, but I'd say he could take on Dooku and win. Plus, Nyriss being as powerful as Dooku doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Revan = Yoda/Sidious. Yoda and Sidious are significantly more powerful than Dooku, but Revan being more powerful than Nyriss doesn't make him equal to them, unless you know the exact difference of power between Yoda/Sidious and Dooku and conclude that there is no way Revan is more powerful than Dooku and less powerful than those two.
EDIT - I wouldn't say Nyriss is nothing next to 'reborn' Revan. After all, it was her lightning that killed her, not Revan's and she was unprepared for him. We don't know to what extent is Revan more powerful than Nyriss.
Originally posted by Master Han
Uh, yeah...citation needed.
Casually absorbing and throwing back Nyriss lightning, which possessed enough raw power to disintegrate her instantly even after tearing through resistance when charged. And batting aside Vitiate's lightning, which is called infinitely greater than Nyriss' own, which even uncharged can turn armored guards into charred husks.
Originally posted by Nephthys
[B]Casually absorbing and throwing back Nyriss lightning, which possessed enough raw power to disintegrate her instantly even after tearing through resistance when charged.
#"Ode to Circular Logic"
And batting aside Vitiate's lightning, which is called infinitely greater than Nyriss' own, which even uncharged can turn armored guards into charred husks.
Uh...nowhere does it state that Vitiate's lightning bolts are infinitely greater than Nyriss's own, but rather that Vitiate himself is, overall, infinitely more powerful than Nyriss, in context of his charged attack.
And this is still circular logic. You're arguing that Nyriss's death isn't a mark against her because Revan is Palpatine-level, and that Revan is Palpatine-level...because he easily killed Nyriss.
Furthermore, you've admitted that, holistically and in terms of overall Force ability, Vitiate is below RotS Sidious. And given that Revan is below Vitiate by a respectable margin, and is in turn above Nyriss by a ridiculous level...yeah, the notion that Nyriss can defeat Dooku is patently absurd.
Originally posted by Col. Valerian
but I'd say he could take on Dooku and win. Plus, Nyriss being as powerful as Dooku doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Revan = Yoda/Sidious. Yoda and Sidious are significantly more powerful than Dooku, but Revan being more powerful than Nyriss doesn't make him equal to them,
You claim that Nyriss is on Dooku's level, suggesting that Revan can oneshot Dooku, far beyond simply defeating him. Do you think Yoda or Palpatine could casually turn Dooku into a pile of ash while in a drug addled state?
Ancient-named-characters-must-be-good syndrome aside, there is nothing to put Nyriss above your average RotS era council member. Beating two powerful foes at once isn't particularly impressive here.
Originally posted by Master Han
#Ode to Circular Logic"
It isn't circular logic. Its logic built off of facts.
1. Nyriss' charged lightning is powerful enough to disintegrate instantly even after being weakened by going through a Force Shield. This is comparable to Sidious' own lightning, which is also powerful enough to disintegrate as shown in Sithisis.
2. Revan effortlessly caught and returned said lightning.
3. Revan compares to Palpatine in regards to Tutaminis.
Originally posted by Master Han
Uh...nowhere does it state that Vitiate's lightning bolts are infinitely greater than Nyriss's own, but rather that Vitiate himself is, overall, infinitely more powerful than Nyriss, in context of his charged attack.And this is still circular logic. You're arguing that Nyriss's death isn't a mark against her because Revan is Palpatine-level, and that Revan is Palpatine-level...because he easily killed Nyriss.
Furthermore, you've admitted that, holistically and in terms of overall Force ability, Vitiate is below RotS Sidious. And given that Revan is below Vitiate by a respectable margin, and is in turn above Nyriss by a ridiculous level...yeah, the notion that Nyriss can defeat Dooku is patently absurd.
It does. The context is that its talking specifically in regards to a comparison between Nyriss and Vitiates charged attacks. The text says that Revan cannot block Vitiates lightning as he did Nyriss' because he is infinitely greater than her. Its referring to the difference between those two atacks, therefore conveying the quote onto Vitiates lightning. Which therefore also indicates that Vitiates non-charged lightning is also infinitely more powerful than Nryiss' non-charged lightning.
No. facepalm
Revan is Yoda/Palpatine level with Tutaminis because he blocked an attack that was F*CKING IMPRESSIVE in its own right. It disintegrated her after going through a Force Shield. That is the indication of the strength of the attack. That Revan so easily redirected that attack indicates at least Yoda level Tutaminis ability. In my personal opinion greater than Yoda, but whatever.
If I did do that, then I completely and utterly take it back. No it isn't. Stop using retarded ABC logic. Theres a reason it doesn't work and this is it.
Originally posted by Master Han
You claim that Nyriss is on Dooku's level, suggesting that Revan can oneshot Dooku, far beyond simply defeating him. Do you think Yoda or Palpatine could casually turn Dooku into a pile of ash while in a drug addled state?Ancient-named-characters-must-be-good syndrome aside, there is nothing to put Nyriss above your average RotS era council member. Beating two powerful foes at once isn't particularly impressive here.
Revan can't one-shot Dooku because Dooku's lightning isn't powerful enough to rip through his own force barriers and turn himself to ash. False equivalency.
The Exile stomped an entire Sith Temple on the most powerful nexus in existence barring Nathema and then shitstomped Sion 5 times in a row, and Traya twice in a row. Owning her is enough to put her well above Jedi Council level.
Originally posted by Master Han
You claim that Nyriss is on Dooku's level, suggesting that Revan can oneshot Dooku, far beyond simply defeating him. Do you think Yoda or Palpatine could casually turn Dooku into a pile of ash while in a drug addled state?
That depends. If you think Revan is far above Nyriss, then yes, it means exactly that. I, however, don't think Revan is that much powerful than Nyriss. He is more powerful, but I don't think that by a lot.
Remember, it was her own lightning that turned her into ash, not Revan's. And she was completely unprepared for it. Revan vs. Nyriss on even ground would be different, imo.
Ancient-named-characters-must-be-good syndrome aside, there is nothing to put Nyriss above your average RotS era council member. Beating two powerful foes at once isn't particularly impressive here.
lol
I'm no ancient Sith fanboy. I draw conclusions based on what I see/read.
Why isn't it particularly impressive here, though?
Originally posted by Nephthys
1. Nyriss' charged lightning is powerful enough to disintegrate instantly even after being weakened by going through a Force Shield. This is comparable to Sidious' own lightning, which is also powerful enough to disintegrate as shown in Sithisis.
It's not comparable to Sidious's own lightning. Sidious does what Nyriss needs to do with a charged attack, using one hand, to three dark side accolades. Casually. He also kills 50 stormtroopers with Force lightning while conveniently leaving unscathed the particular coup's leader.
This is the lightning that Yoda turns back on the sith lord at point blank range.
And also, just to clarify, does the narrator state that Nyrris's lightning can do that, or are you just extrapolating from what happens to her when Revan tosses the lightning back?
It does. The context is that its talking specifically in regards to a comparison between Nyriss and Vitiates charged attacks. The text says that Revan cannot block Vitiates lightning as he did Nyriss' because he is infinitely greater than her. Its referring to the difference between those two atacks, therefore conveying the quote onto Vitiates lightning. Which therefore also indicates that Vitiates non-charged lightning is also infinitely more powerful than Nryiss' non-charged lightning.
Except that Nyrris's lightning attack that we're talking about was charged... 😉
If I did do that, then I completely and utterly take it back. No it isn't. Stop using retarded ABC logic. Theres a reason it doesn't work and this is it.
ABC logic doesn't work when there are specific circumstances that you actually have to point out, instead of just arbitrarily tossing out the transitive property.
And whilst taking back your assessment that Sidious > Vitiate would hardly be something new (you've done it literally over a dozen times), it's still a canon fact. Sidious > Vitiate > Revan >>>>>> Nyriss. Sidious = Yoda > Dooku, but not by a lot.
Originally posted by Master Han
You claim that Nyriss is on Dooku's level, suggesting that Revan can oneshot Dooku, far beyond simply defeating him. Do you think Yoda or Palpatine could casually turn Dooku into a pile of ash while in a drug addled state?Ancient-named-characters-must-be-good syndrome aside, there is nothing to put Nyriss above your average RotS era council member. Beating two powerful foes at once isn't particularly impressive here.
Revan can't one-shot Dooku because Dooku's lightning isn't powerful enough to rip through his own force barriers and turn himself to ash. False equivalency.
The Exile stomped an entire Sith Temple on the most powerful nexus in existence barring Nathema and then shitstomped Sion 5 times in a row, and Traya twice in a row. Owning her is enough to put her well above Jedi Council level.
Originally posted by Master Han
It's not comparable to Sidious's own lightning. Sidious does what Nyriss needs to do with a charged attack, using one hand, to three dark side accolades. Casually. He also kills 50 stormtroopers with Force lightning while conveniently leaving unscathed the particular coup's leader.[b]This
is the lightning that Yoda turns back on the sith lord at point blank range.And also, just to clarify, does the narrator state that Nyrris's lightning can do that, or are you just extrapolating from what happens to her when Revan tosses the lightning back?[/b]
It is comparable. Hence why there are two situations where they compare to each other. Nyriss disintegrates herself. Sidious disintegrates a Sith Worm. The situations compare. It doesn't matter that she has to charge it up, since Revan blocks it anyway.
Yes. At great strain though. Revan doesn't strain. Hence why I call it comparable in strength. Even if Sidious' lightning is above Nyriss' charged lightning, the difference in strain still makes them comparably good.
Wtf? She turns to ash. Thats what happens.
Originally posted by Master Han
Except that Nyrris's lightning attack that we're talking about was charged... 😉
Yeah, I know. Which is why I also elaborated on her non-charged lightning, which is still potent as shit, able to one-shot Meetra and turn armored guards into smoking husks. Being infinitely more powerful (which I know is hyperbole, but clearly refers to Vitiate being far greater than her) than lightning of that caliber is still amazing, as is Revan being able to bat it aside.
Originally posted by Master Han
ABC logic doesn't work when there are specific circumstances that you actually have to point out, instead of just arbitrarily tossing out the transitive property.And whilst taking back your assessment that Sidious > Vitiate would hardly be something new (you've done it literally over a dozen times), it's still a canon fact. Sidious > Vitiate > Revan >>>>>> Nyriss. Sidious = Yoda > Dooku, but not by a lot.
Yes! The specific circumstance was that Revan is amazing at Tutaminis and Nyriss had just charged up an attack that he could reflect that was capable of one-shotting her. Revan didn't one-shot her, she one-shot herself. That is the special circumstance.
Hence. Why. I'm. Only. Saying. That. He's. That. Far. Above. Her. In. Tutaminis. You. Illiterate. Fool.
The only thing Revan has demonstrated that thats far above Nyriss is his Tutaminis, which is why that is the ONLY thing I'm saying is Yoda/Palpatine level in regards to him.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Revan can't one-shot Dooku because Dooku's lightning isn't powerful enough to rip through his own force barriers and turn himself to ash. False equivalency.
What? So Revan can't just charge up an attack of a similar level of power himself?
The Exile stomped an entire Sith Temple on the most powerful nexus in existence barring Nathema and then shitstomped Sion 5 times in a row, and Traya twice in a row. Owning her is enough to put her well above Jedi Council level.
By your own concession, the Exile we see in Revan isn't nearly as powerful as your interpretation of her feats in KOTORII suggest. Assuming that your estimation of her power is correct, we can assume that she's horribly out of practice.
It is comparable. Hence why there are two situations where they compare to each other. Nyriss disintegrates herself. Sidious disintegrates a Sith Worm. The situations compare. It doesn't matter that she has to charge it up, since Revan blocks it anyway.
The situations don't compare, not unless if you think Nyrris's lightning is on Palpatine's level.
Yes. At great strain though. Revan doesn't strain. Hence why I call it comparable in strength. Even if Sidious' lightning is above Nyriss' charged lightning, the difference in strain still makes them comparably good.
No, this is circular logic (again). We're trying to establish Nyrris's power here, and you're ultimately using your conclusion to support what's supposed to be an argument leading to your conclusion.
Wtf? She turns to ash. Thats what happens.
How do you know Revan didn't add his own power into his reflection?
Yeah, I know. Which is why I also elaborated on her non-charged lightning, which is still potent as shit, able to one-shot Meetra and turn armored guards into smoking husks. Being infinitely more powerful (which I know is hyperbole, but clearly refers to Vitiate being far greater than her) than lightning of that caliber is still amazing, as is Revan being able to bat it aside.
Given that Nyriss caught the protagonists by surprise when she killed the guards, we don't know whether she charged it or not. And Revan Exile isn't impressive at all.
I'm not denying that Revan possesses extremely powerful defenses, so you can stop declaring his skills "amazing". I'm just pointing out that there's nothing to suggest that his Tutaminis is disproportionately Yoda-level, whilst his overall power is not.
Yes! The specific circumstance was that Revan is amazing at Tutaminis and Nyriss had just charged up an attack that he could reflect that was capable of one-shotting her. Revan didn't one-shot her, she one-shot herself. That is the special circumstance.
Why do you assume Revan didn't add his own power into the attack?
As a given, he's going to have to push it back against her (notice how Yoda does this against Dooku).
Hence. Why. I'm. Only. Saying. That. He's. That. Far. Above. Her. In. Tutaminis. You. Illiterate. Fool.The only thing Revan has demonstrated that thats far above Nyriss is his Tutaminis, which is why that is the ONLY thing I'm saying is Yoda/Palpatine level in regards to him. [/B]
LOL, wut? So because Revan is far above Nyriss in tutaminis, he must be Yoda/Palpatine level? 😆 😆 😆
Originally posted by Master Han
What? So Revan can't just charge up an attack of a similar level of power himself?
He's never demonstrated it.
Originally posted by Master Han
By your own concession, the Exile we see in Revan isn't nearly as powerful as your interpretation of her feats in KOTORII suggest. Assuming that your estimation of her power is correct, we can assume that she's horribly out of practice.
We can assume nothing, because we know that actual stated reason from the author, which is that Karpyshan didn't bother to research her capabilities. Just like a sourcebook claiming Traya fights with a doublebladed lightsaber (despite only having one hand), its just a mistake and should be taken as such.
Originally posted by Master Han
The situations don't compare, not unless if you think Nyrris's lightning is on Palpatine's level.
Her charged lightning is, yes.
Originally posted by Master Han
No, this is circular logic (again). We're trying to establish Nyrris's power here, and you're ultimately using your conclusion to support what's supposed to be an argument leading to your conclusion.
No, we're establishing Revan's power here. I'm doing that by establishing Nyriss' power, which then reveals Revans because of its position in relation to it.
Originally posted by Master Han
How do you know Revan didn't add his own power into his reflection?
"Nyriss’s eyes went wide as Revan unleashed the power of her own attack against her."
😉
Originally posted by Master Han
Given that Nyriss caught the protagonists by surprise when she killed the guards, we don't know whether she charged it or not. And Revan Exile isn't impressive at all.I'm not denying that Revan possesses extremely powerful defenses, so you can stop declaring his skills "amazing". I'm just pointing out that there's nothing to suggest that his Tutaminis is disproportionately Yoda-level, whilst his overall power is not.
Its far less effective then what her charged lightning produced later, without having to go through a force barrier.
Except, you know, his actual applications of it.
Originally posted by Master Han
Why do you assume Revan didn't add his own power into the attack?As a given, he's going to have to push it back against her (notice how Yoda does this against Dooku).
"Nyriss’s eyes went wide as Revan unleashed the power of her own attack against her."
😉
Originally posted by Master Han
LOL, wut? So because Revan is far above Nyriss in tutaminis, he must be Yoda/Palpatine level? 😆 😆 😆
Only in regards to Tutaminis, yes.
Nephthys
We can assume nothing, because we know that actual stated reason from the author, which is that Karpyshan didn't bother to research her capabilities. Just like a sourcebook claiming Traya fights with a doublebladed lightsaber (despite only having one hand), its just a mistake and should be taken as such.
lmao
Originally posted by Nephthys
Huh? Thats the other thread, we're talking about why Meetra sucks in Revan and kicks ass in Kotor II in here.Though it does mean that Karpyshan is full of shit to be making that comparison when he knows ****all about the people Meetras met.
😐
Sorry, we're bouncing from thread to fvcking thread, can't keep track!
That aside, Meetra's skills were demonstrated in this book and she was simply underwhelming. Perhaps when the time comes and she appears in other sources where such things can be conclusively determined, we can write it off as a low showing.
But if you want to dismiss it simply because you think it's bullshit, then we'll do it and you can hold my hand as I begin pruning the fvck out of Vitiate.
We can call it simply a low showing. Since in Kotor II she's a beast who stomps an entire Sith Temple, whoops Sion 5 times in a row, then beat Traya twice in a row, on Malachor V, the most potent darkside nexus short of Nathema and with the MSG making it so that 'To walk on its surface is to feel it crushing every cell of your being. It is like being buried alive until it seems you will never breathe again.'