Nyriss vs Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Why is corrupting people already skirting the dark side impressive? Although you do make a good case for Malachor being more corrupt than pretty much any place in the galaxy. Although to be fair we don't know how Droumund Kaas compares.

Its impressive that the nexus did so through sheer strength.

The Exile makes no mention of Dromund Kaas being similar and theres nothing indicating it is in any of the descriptions of it. Besides, its not been confirmed that Kaas even is a nexus. The only part confirmed to be one is the Dark Temple and the surrounding areas. That such a distinction is made makes me skeptical to begin with. Surely if the whole planet were a nexus it wouldn't have only said that the surrounding areas were a nexus.

Even if it is a nexus though, theres no indication of anything approaching the level of power of Malachor V.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Except Sion has a soft spot for female Exile.

Theres no indication that he was going easy on you. He repeatedly says he wants to kill you, and even indicates at one point that killing you is his idea of saving you.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
When was Revan consumed by it?

He wasn't. He managed to resist it. As for when he did so, I believe it was when he first stepped onto the planet.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Korriban was a wound. Lonna Vash selected that place to hide for that very reason. The Jedi Masters all selected places where they thought that holes in the force were happening to investigate.

Nope, Vash came to Korriban searching for Sion. As her datapad says at 11.55.

The other masters claim that:

"We have been trying... for years, without success. Whatever disturbance in the Force that would cause death on such a scale also clouds it from our sight.”
“It is like a scream in the Force, and finding its source is difficult. It has cast many echoes.”
“So we sought out places touched by the Force, by such events.”
“We went to Dantooine... to Telos... to Dxun.”
“And some of us just left.”

I'm not sure that that translates to Wounds though.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
You don't find one in KOTOR II. All 3 are found in KOTOR I.

You're right, my mistake.

Nyriss.

Same. She's stronger in the Force, demonstrated superior Force powers and is more dominating in regards to lightsaber combat. She'll be able to breach Kenobi's defenses in both aspects imo.

Originally posted by Nephthys
[B]Its impressive that the nexus did so through sheer strength.

The Exile makes no mention of Dromund Kaas being similar and theres nothing indicating it is in any of the descriptions of it. Besides, its not been confirmed that Kaas even is a nexus. The only part confirmed to be one is the Dark Temple and the surrounding areas. That such a distinction is made makes me skeptical to begin with. Surely if the whole planet were a nexus it wouldn't have only said that the surrounding areas were a nexus.

Perhaps. But wouldn't the Emperor of the Sith want the most powerful nexus as the seat of his power?

Theres no indication that he was going easy on you. He repeatedly says he wants to kill you, and even indicates at one point that killing you is his idea of saving you.

Still Sion is far more invested in Meetra's well being when she's selected to be female.

He wasn't. He managed to resist it. As for when he did so, I believe it was when he first stepped onto the planet.

Yes he was. The JC throughout KOTOR said that Revan's fall began during the Mandalorian Wars. Which culminated with their encounter with the Sith Emperor.

Nope, Vash came to Korriban searching for Sion. As her datapad says at 11.55.

The other masters claim that:

"We have been trying... for years, without success. Whatever disturbance in the Force that would cause death on such a scale also clouds it from our sight.”
“It is like a scream in the Force, and finding its source is difficult. It has cast many echoes.”
“So we sought out places touched by the Force, by such events.”
“We went to Dantooine... to Telos... to Dxun.”
“And some of us just left.”

I'm not sure that that translates to Wounds though.

I suppose. I always thought in cut content Vash was to live and that she too went out in search of the wounds. And that translates to wounds to me considering that the masters were able to deduce that it was not just those places but the Exile herself causing them.

You're right, my mistake.

It's all good, just cuddle with me later excellent

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Perhaps. But wouldn't the Emperor of the Sith want the most powerful nexus as the seat of his power?

Not if its like, actively driving his citizens insane or whatever. 😖hrug:

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Yes he was. The JC throughout KOTOR said that Revan's fall began during the Mandalorian Wars. Which culminated with their encounter with the Sith Emperor.

I meant that Revan wasn't consumed by Malachor. He started falling, but it was only complete after Vitiate.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I suppose. I always thought in cut content Vash was to live and that she too went out in search of the wounds. And that translates to wounds to me considering that the masters were able to deduce that it was not just those places but the Exile herself causing them.

In cut-content, Vash was supposed to be on a completely different planet that was cut from the game, M4-78.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not if its like, actively driving his citizens insane or whatever. 😖hrug:

I meant that Revan wasn't consumed by Malachor. He started falling, but it was only complete after Vitiate.

I'd imagine Revan would be able to if fricken Mira was. He's supposed to be the supreme Mary Sue of his generation.

In cut-content, Vash was supposed to be on a completely different planet that was cut from the game, M4-78. [/B]

True...I guess I have just internalized the restored Jedi Council scene as my head canon.

Woah woah...you don't want to cuddle.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
He had no problems eating his citizens for the sake of advancing his power though.

He still needs people to make up his Empire. Its not going to go very well if his capital planet is turning everyone crazy. 😆

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
True...I guess I have just internalized the restored Jedi Council scene as my head canon.

Woah woah...you don't want to cuddle.

Okay.

Sorry, I was tired and wanted to respond quickly then sleep. You know I'm always up for cuddles. >:]

I didn't even notice this was addressed to me, sorry.

Originally posted by Master Han
Buddy, you've speculated off a number of things that have never been demonstrated, especially not in a single short, oddly written novel, so I don't see where you're trying to go off here, unless if you think Nyriss > Revan in conjuring lightning.

I do think that. Revans never demonstrated a particular aptitude for lightning, and has never charred or disintegrated anyone with it like Nyriss has.

Originally posted by Master Han
That's an out of universe excuse, not an in-universe rationalization. The Exile's power is...sort of crucial to the novel's plot, which, in turn, is crucial to the ongoing of the entire mythos. You can't just handwave such discrepancies.

Either way, however, if Revan Exile <<< the "real" Exile, you can't draw any conclusions about how powerful characters are by interchanging the two. That Nyriss can pwn Meetra in Revan doesn't indicate she could last five seconds against the [allegedly] more powerful Exile in KOTORII. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

You mean, kinda like how the creators of the Clone Wars cartoon admitted it was exaggerated? Nah but you're fine with using that in other threads, so there must be a difference there that I'm not seeing right? 😉

Except that Nyriss pwning the Exile is still a thing that happened. As you said, its critical to the plot. I'm not suggesting it be seen as non-canon. What I'm suggesting is that we can't use 'The Exile was worthless in Revan' as a mark against Nyriss owning her, because she wasn't worthless. Shes still the same character who did all that crazy shit I'm pointed out. KotorII!Exile isn't >>>> Revan!Exile, they are the same person. The only reason she seemed worthless was because Karpyshan didn't do his homework. That is what is non-canon, the idea that Meetra is mediocre at best. Canonically, she's still really ****ing impressive. Which is why Nyriss pwning her, is still really ****ing impressive too.

Originally posted by Master Han
On what grounds? It seems that Palpatine charged lightning against Windu and possibly Yoda given his prep time; there's no indication that you necessarily need to see a visual effect. And given the trouble Windu and Yoda go through to deflect his attack, you, again, would have to conclude that Revan's Force defenses are vastly beyond Yoda's or Windu's, despite the former having dedicated 8 centuries to defending against the dark side, and the latter having vaapad's superconducting loop.

Palpatine didn't charge his lightning against Windu or Yoda.

And yes, I did say I thought they were more impressive then Yodas, didn't I?

Originally posted by Master Han
Look at the context; we were discussing Nyriss vs Dooku, and I opened this side-debate by suggesting that Revan's pwnage of Nyriss puts her massively below Tyrannus.

Right.... but what we're actually discussing is whether or not Revans ability with Tutaminis is Yoda level. If we were discussing Nyriss I would just point out the thing I do below.

But if you insist, its utterly retarded to think that Nyriss is massively below Tyrannus in terms of Force Lightning considering her lightning is FAR more potent than his is. Her lightning one-shots the Exile, turns people to charred husks and utterly disintegrates them even after going through a force barrier.

Your whole argument is built on a frankly idiotic case of ABC logic. Where Revan owning Nyriss MUST make him >>>> her, in turn making him >>>>>>>>> the Exile, while Vitiate >>>> him and Palpatine is >>> Vitiate. Therefore Nyriss MUST be <<<<<< Dooku since ABC Dooku himself is slightly below Yoda boodiboodiboo.

Thats just not the case, and is an extremely apt example of why ABC logic is considered laughable on this forum. 😬

Originally posted by Master Han
OK...and do Yoda and Windu not do the same to Palpatine?

Yes. Although they showed a good deal more strain than Revan did.

Originally posted by Master Han
And without using circular logic, how, exactly, do you prove this? You're framing this in the context of Revan's power being the ultimate question here, rather than Nyriss's.

Because Nyriss' lightning was shown to be amazingly powerful. You can say that Dooku is above her all you want, but her lightning outstripped his by a nautical mile in that scene. The same lightning Revan (literally) casually handled. As I said, Nyriss' charged lightning rivals Sidious' in its ability to disintegrate a body completely. Revan casually palming it is why I say he's near or above Yoda in regards to Tutaminis. Its a massively impressive feat.

But its the only massively impressive feat Revan has in the entire novel. Nowhere else does he demonstrate power and skill of that magnitude. He has no great TK feats. He has no great lightning feats. He has no impressive speed or duelling feats. He demonstrates nothing else thats noteworthy on the level of Yoda and Sidious. Nothing else in regards to his abilities puts him on that level. The only thing that does is the scenes where he handles Nyriss' and Vitiates lightning. Tutaminis is the only amazing skill he shows. Thats why his Tutaminis is the only aspect that he rivals Yoda in. Because in every other area Yoda is his clear superior in demonstrated power.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I do think that. Revans never demonstrated a particular aptitude for lightning, and has never charred or disintegrated anyone with it like Nyriss has.

And since Revan has never demonstrated any particular aptitude for telekinesis, and never shot open that one door like Darth Maul did, I guess we should say he's inferior in that regards as well, right?

Unless otherwise indicated, we typically assume that one's ability in a certain Force area, with adequate training, is going to compare with others' talents proportional to their overall Force ability. Hence, we'd probably agree that Palpatine could beat Kenobi in a Force tug-of-war, even though Sidious really doesn't have many impressive telekinesis feats.

You mean, kinda like how the creators of the Clone Wars cartoon admitted it was exaggerated? Nah but you're fine with using that in other threads, so there must be a difference there that I'm not seeing right? 😉

Yes, there is, oh-sarcastic-one. It's that the Clone Wars cartoon's narrative of events quite irreconcilably contradicts events detailed in the more recent animation.

Except that Nyriss pwning the Exile is still a thing that happened. As you said, its critical to the plot. I'm not suggesting it be seen as non-canon. What I'm suggesting is that we can't use 'The Exile was worthless in Revan' as a mark against Nyriss owning her, because she wasn't worthless. Shes still the same character who did all that crazy shit I'm pointed out. KotorII!Exile isn't >>>> Revan!Exile, they are the same person. The only reason she seemed worthless was because Karpyshan didn't do his homework.

I'm sorry, but this is laughably boneheaded logic. If the Exile "seemed" worthless because of out-of-universe errors in research, and assuming that such an excuse is even admissible, why should we take Nyriss's defeat of her seriously? By your own logic, Karpyshan envisioned Nyriss defeating an "Exile" far weaker than the Exile from KOTOR II that may very well have wiped the floor with her.

Again, you can't have your cake and eat it to. You either say that Nyriss defeats the "real" Exile, and that the real Exile isn't that strong, or you maintain your argument of PIS and therefore forgo claiming that Nyriss can defeat the KOTOR II Meetra.

To put it another way, the reason why we view the Exile as weak is because of her performance against the soldiers and Scourge's high but not exceptional opinion of her, actions that should, in your own logic, mean that the soldiers sent to arrest her are superhuman.

That is what is non-canon, the idea that Meetra is mediocre at best. Canonically, she's still really ****ing impressive. Which is why Nyriss pwning her, is still really ****ing impressive too.

Except that, since this Meetra's feats are too bad and therefore apparently non-canon, her losing to Nyriss, which is part of why we consider her unimpressive, is also "non-canon".

Palpatine didn't charge his lightning against Windu or Yoda.

"charging" isn't necessarily visible. That dark council member didn't telegraph his own charging.

And yes, I did say I thought they were more impressive then Yodas, didn't I?

No, you're arbitrarily flip flopping between "on the level" and "beyond", all based on nothing more than horrible circular logic.

Right.... but what we're actually discussing is whether or not Revans ability with Tutaminis is Yoda level. If we were discussing Nyriss I would just point out the thing I do below.

But if you insist, its utterly retarded to think that Nyriss is massively below Tyrannus in terms of Force Lightning considering her lightning is FAR more potent than his is. Her lightning one-shots the Exile, turns people to charred husks and utterly disintegrates them even after going through a force barrier.

What makes you think Dooku's cannot? Is he not capable of disarming three nightsisters with said lightning while drugged? It's not as if he wasn't toying around with Anakin in AotC.

Your whole argument is built on a frankly idiotic case of ABC logic. Where Revan owning Nyriss MUST make him >>>> her, in turn making him >>>>>>>>> the Exile, while Vitiate >>>> him and Palpatine is >>> Vitiate. Therefore Nyriss MUST be <<<<<< Dooku since ABC Dooku himself is slightly below Yoda boodiboodiboo.

Thats just not the case, and is an extremely apt example of why ABC logic is considered laughable on this forum. 😬

"that's just not the case" isn't a really sustainable course of argument.

Yes. Although they showed a good deal more strain than Revan did.

Because Palpatine is orders of magnitude more powerful than Nyriss...

Because Nyriss' lightning was shown to be amazingly powerful. You can say that Dooku is above her all you want, but her lightning outstripped his by a nautical mile in that scene. The same lightning Revan (literally) casually handled. As I said, Nyriss' charged lightning rivals Sidious' in its ability to disintegrate a body completely. Revan casually palming it is why I say he's near or above Yoda in regards to Tutaminis. Its a massively impressive feat.

But its the only massively impressive feat Revan has in the entire novel. Nowhere else does he demonstrate power and skill of that magnitude. He has no great TK feats. He has no great lightning feats. He has no impressive speed or duelling feats. He demonstrates nothing else thats noteworthy on the level of Yoda and Sidious. Nothing else in regards to his abilities puts him on that level. The only thing that does is the scenes where he handles Nyriss' and Vitiates lightning. Tutaminis is the only amazing skill he shows. Thats why his Tutaminis is the only aspect that he rivals Yoda in. Because in every other area Yoda is his clear superior in demonstrated power.

OK, let's assume for a moment that Nyriss's lightning surpasses Dooku's (even though her turn people to ashes trick really isn't that exclusive in the EU).

How does this put Revan's Force defenses on Yoda's level again? What arbitrary mathematics have you made up to conclude that "easily redirect Nyriss's lightning" > "barely stop Sidious's". Because since you admit that Yoda > Revan in overall Force ability, you'd have to prove that Revan's lightning-catching abilities are disproportionately greater relative to his overall power, even though Yoda specialized in defending against the dark side.

Originally posted by Master Han
Scourge and the Exile aren't heavyweights. "master swordsman" =/= heavyweight. "legendary swordsman" = heavyweight. "one of the greatest swordsmen of all time" = heavyweight.

Both Scourge and Meetra qualify as heavyweights because both have "unique" accomplishments under their belt in addition to being powerful and skilled.

Originally posted by Master Han
Given that all Force users instinctively know how to protect themselves from Force attacks, to the point where neither Kenobi nor Skywalker think about trying to push the other off the narrow walkway surrounded by lava, this isn't very impressive. Especially given that Scourge has no Force feats at this point in time to put him on the level of Kenobi.

Scourge and Nyriss didn't fought in a setting involving lava; they fought in a safe setting and Scourge's decision to unleash a Force push on Nyriss was well thought out, otherwise, Meetra might have fallen. I am not sure if Scourge matched Obi-Wan in Force abilities at this point but he is definitely above ordinary stage (ordinary represents majority in an era?).

Originally posted by Master Han
Why do you keep suggesting that this is somehow relevant?

Originally posted by Master Han
And interesting that you bring up the Revan debacle. Remember when Revan oneshots Nyriss into a pile of ash? 😉

Originally posted by Master Han
The Chosen One is just an "above average" Force-user? LOL wut?

Originally posted by Master Han
I seem to recall his casually jumping off an airspeeder, falling hundreds of meters through heavy traffic, and landing precisely on the speeder he was tracking, deccelerating from terminal velocity to zero vertically, and a considerable distance horizontally, in a fraction of a second, without any injury or discomfort. This is as a padawan.

I also seem to recall Dooku being trapped by one of Anakin's Force walls. This is, again, as a padawan.

I also seem to recall that, when he gets sufficiently "in teh zone", he can turn Dooku's command of the Force into "a joke".

Also, learn to differentiate hyperbole from fact; Dooku was superior to both Anakin and Obi-Wan in "command of the Force" aspect. The final encounter between Anakin and Dooku have circumstances attached to it but this is a separate debate.

Originally posted by Master Han
Yeah, and Kenobi uses it to deflect all of Grievous's saber strikes simultaneously.

Given that Grievous has himself killed multiple council Jedi at once, this is a helluva lot more impressive than beating two "exceptional" combatants.

Why do you think that PT era Jedi Council was not willing to accept Anakin as its member? Because Anakin was not perceived as a "role-model" follower of the Jedi philosophy. This Council accepted Anakin only due to request of the chancellor.

Council members themselves can significantly vary in both power and skill factors. Consider the case of PT era Jedi Council members; we have Coleman Trebor who couldn't fight Jango Fett even from close distance and we have Mace Windu who didn't just kill Jango Fett but also brought Sidious to his knees. So?

Grievous, being able to handle so many Jedi, is either an indication of general incompetence of the Jedi of that respective era or PIS at its finest in the mythos. A powerful Force-user shouldn't find Grievous a difficult opponent to defeat and dismantle with sheer Force abilities alone.

Originally posted by Master Han
Firstly, this fight is Obi Wan vs Nyriss, not Obi Wan vs Scourge. Secondly, Obi Wan is hardly one to feel lots of "fear" or "raw emotions".

In the entire mythos, their is example of only one Jedi who refused to fight any individual and didn't resist even the attempts of an individual who killed him (as per my knowledge). Obi-Wan certainly isn't like this.

Maybe Obi-Wan is challenging to gorge upon but this doesn't seems to be an impossible task unless Obi-Wan knows how to make his mind impenetrable, which I seriously doubt.

Originally posted by Master Han
Yes, and everyone on your list is a SW heavyweight. Scourge and the Exile, at this point, have demonstrated nothing to put them on their level.

1. I do not regard "everyone" as a heavyweight.

2. Both Scourge and Meetra were skilled enough to take on and defeat two Imperial Guard individuals simultaneously in martial aspects of combat (TOR era Imperial Guard individuals are among the finest combatants in the galaxy; good enough to be part of the powerbase deployed by the Sith Emperor himself for his personal protection; and specially trained to tackle threats from Jedi and Sith Orders respectively). This is damn fine indication of Scourge and Meetra being capable of hanging with a threat like Grievous.

3. Scourge was specially such a fine duelist that even his instructors became reluctant to duel him during his final days in the Sith Academy (The instructors wouldn't be lacking in skill either since they shaped Scourge in to such a fine warrior in the first place). During confrontation with the Imperial Guard, Scourge outdueled even the LEADER of the Imperial Guard and he accomplished this while being outnumbered (Imperial Guard LEADERS are specially among the best of the best in martial aspects of combat in the galaxy). This encounter actually have more depth to it which makes Scourge's performance nothing short of utterly amazing (additional information revealed below). It is safe to assume that Scourge can possibly even outduel an opponent such as Grievous in a fair fight.

Originally posted by Master Han
So what?

Obi Wan casually dispatches two (three?) magnaguards, a single one of which is considered more than a match for a Jedi Master, and are programmed with knowledge of all 7 lightsaber forms (making them technically more skilled than Kas'im), with far greater ease than Scourge does.

Also, Scourge's questionable performance against the droids is entirely circumstantial development. Scourge had become so accustomed to utilizing his gorging talent against his opponents that he instinctively attempted the same against the droids, which backfired on him. On top of this, the harsh environment of the setting was an additional disadvantage to him. Still, Scourge made it out alive and destroyed any opposition in the process including the big and heavy droids. After this encounter, Nyriss psychologically fine-tuned Scourge to control his gorging talent.

Try not to overlook the circumstances behind a fight which you intend to refer in a debate.

Originally posted by Master Han
Not as impressive as Kenobi's "one of the best of all time" accolades.

At maximum, this accolade affirms that Obi-Wan safely qualifies as "among" the best duelists in any era but not necessarily the TOP duelist of any era. For example: He might be number 5 in his time but number 20 in another time. These are the kind of ambiguities that we have to deal with in these kind of debates unfortunately.

Originally posted by Master Han
Wrong thread bud.

Originally posted by Master Han
OK, with all due respect, your continual inability to understand this simple point is beginning to get a little ridiculous.

That Scourge is an "exceptional duelist", "master swordsman" and "really powerful" is good and all, but it doesn't establish anything spectacular. The same accolades could apply to any number of Jedi and Sith whose ass Kenobi can kick.

Kenobi is continuously described as one of the greatest duelists of all time. Dooku is personally amazed by his abilities in RotS. Windu considers him the master of Soresu. Kenobi has tooled Grievous and held of the Chosen One, who the thousand years old Durge described as the fastest Jedi he'd ever met.

Notice the difference in scale here.

I don't care if Nyriss can handle the Exile and Scourge at the same time. Obi Wan has handled several magnaguards with casual ease, a single one of which can kill a Jedi Master. Obi Wan has handled with ease Grievous, who has tooled more than one council level Master simultaneously. I don't care if you think Nyriss's feat is impressive because Scourge and the Exile are "really powerful", because you'll need accolades and feats beyond that to elevate her above Kenobi.

This statement: That Scourge is an "exceptional duelist", "master swordsman" and "really powerful" is good and all, but it doesn't establish anything spectacular. The same accolades could apply to any number of Jedi and Sith whose ass Kenobi can kick. - applies both ways. Scourge possessed the capability to outduel opponents qualifying for these accolades as well.

Scourge's performance against the Imperial Guard individuals affirms my position on this [Full information disclosed here]: The Imperial Guard individuals were not just exceptional duelists but this encounter took place in a setting where they could draw upon the power of the Sith Emperor himself to augment their capabilities and render them virtually invincible to Force powers to great extent. Scourge was apparently disadvantaged in this encounter in the context that he couldn't rely upon his Force abilities to overcome opposition in this kind of setting to gain upper-hand, instead he had to rely upon his (pure) martial abilities to outduel such a formidable opposition. This is true for Meetra and Revan as well. Now try to comprehend the ground realities of this encounter properly and you may understand my point of reasoning in this regard.

Secondly, you are ignoring the fact that Obi-Wan never managed to outduel Dooku in any aspect of combat, who in turn, was outdueled by Anakin. However, Obi-Wan did manage to stalemate Anakin in a duel. So do you really think that A > B > C logic is infallible?

Point is that combat situations are never so black and white. Obi-Wan may have been formidable enough to match Anakin and Ventress but he found Maul and Dooku as relatively more difficult opponents to hang with at personal capacity.

Obi-Wan may find Scourge a very tough opponent to contend with at personal capacity (Scourge have an innate advantage due to his gorging talent). In contrast, Obi-Wan offers nearly impenetrable defense to crack to Scourge due to being among the TOP Form III practitioners in history but the gorging talent of the latter might afford him a stalemate at minimum, if not victory (I am not ruling out the possibility of victory of Scourge in this fight by the way since Scourge is also a master of all forms of lightsaber combat in addition to possessing gorging talent).

Also, you mentioned speed; Scourge is well accustomed to perform his actions with enormous speed in all capacities (He studied the curriculum of Sith Warrior in which speed is one of the important aspects to focus upon). Also, speed is an ambiguous element to focus upon in this kind of debate because words such as blinding, supernatural, blur, shield and vice versa do not quantify this element properly. Anakin may have been the fastest Jedi whom he met in his (or its) span of existence but we do not know what he would think about great warriors whom he have not met.

Originally posted by Master Han
By TOR? Debatable, although "in awe" might be an exaggeration.

By Revan? Nyriss is never established to be an above average council member. I don't understand why you think that all named characters, particularly ancient ones, must by default be exceptionally powerful. Scourge is established to be remarkably talented, but nothing legendary. Obi Wan, on the other hand, is already personally held in "such high esteem" by Yoda in AotC, and by RotS he's regarded as one of the GOATs.

The "high esteem" remark made me laugh; it reminded me about potential shortcomings of perceptions because Dooku found Obi-Wan easier to knock out then (padawan) Anakin.

Also, I am not assuming every (named) ancient character to be exceptionally powerful. 😂

I hold Nyriss in such a high regard because of her performance against the duo of Scourge and Meetra. The background realities of both Scourge and Meetra are impressive by standards of the mythos itself. Nyriss may not be the strongest member of the Dark Council of his era but she reveals that how potent Dark Council members are in general. Their are more examples of Dark Council members being extremely impressive or powerful individuals. Fans should try to re-adjust their older perceptions about relative strength of characters in the mythos as per this latest update.

Originally posted by Master Han
You mean against Nyriss.

Originally posted by Master Han
Because, on average, they're better, as per canonical statements by Lucas and Gillard, and as per specific references in the RotS novelization.

I do pay attention to revelations from Lucas and other authorities but I do not forego actual canonical information in the process. Lucas, in particular, have history of making claims that may not sit well with canonical developments of the mythos so I tend to be cautious about using his personal statements as a source. Otherwise, I would be picking and choosing statements for my benefit in debates just like many fans may do.

Originally posted by Master Han
That's speculative, since we don't know his entire combat history. And even then, I don't see how this makes him particularly impressive. The Emperor is only going to send Scourge to deal with enemies he thinks the Wrath can handle, and then Scourge, being essentially an assassin, picks and chooses when and where to fight, so it's not as if he's taking them on in fair fights gauntlet style.

And in the course of said 3 centuries, there's nothing to suggest that he's had to face anyone on the level of Kenobi. Obi Wan is a prodigy.

Sith Emperor sent his first Wrath to eliminate "formidable threats" mostly. Canonical description is like this: "When a Jedi grew too powerful or a Sith too ambitious, Scourge eliminated the threat."

The Emperor's Wrath position was part of the personal powerbase of the Sith Emperor and its purpose was to ensure that Sith Emperor is to be FEARED and not to be messed with. For this kind of position, only the top dogs qualified.

Originally posted by Master Han
Competent enough that Dooku warns Grievous to avoid him.

Originally posted by Master Han
Why, because he's a "master swordsman"? Because unnamed lightsaber instructors were reluctant to face him? 🙄

An unnamed Jedi collapsed two buildings around the position of Malgus, attempting to crush him in the process (Vader level strength at minimum).

While identification is good for consumers, it would be asinine to assume that "unnamed" individuals suck by default. Those unnamed lightsaber instructors held such an important position in a Sith Academy of a great Sith Empire for good enough reasons and also get the credit for shaping Scourge in to such a fine warrior. Try to think logically.

Originally posted by Master Han
Qui Gon Jinn is, yet again, described as one of the premier lightsaber duelists in history. All of these people you think Revan-era Scourge can hang with are way out of his league.

Originally posted by Master Han
Not by the Revan novel. At this point, he's considered to be exceptional, not legendary.

Remember that Nyriss handled the duo of Scourge and Meetra simultaneously without difficulty. Try to acknowledge that Scourge and Meetra are already among the heavyweights of the mythos and then try to comprehend Nyriss's extraordinary capabilities.

Even if we are to assume that Obi-Wan is more then a match for Scourge and Meetra individually (which I doubt due to so many reasons), their is nothing on Obi-Wan which lends credibility to the assertion that he stands a chance against the duo of Scourge and Meetra. And Nyriss sets the bar even higher then this "already very formidable duo."

Obi-Wan IS logically outgunned in this contest; we all know how good he is. Argument is not about Obi-Wan being a match for Nyriss in (pure) martial aspects of combat but argument is about Nyriss being relatively much more imposing and effective combatant on the basis of her extraordinary abilities. This is why she has advantage over Obi-Wan and this is why she is likely to dominate and eliminate him after some fight.

Originally posted by Master Han
OK. So where is it specified that Sion and Traya (a former Jedi counsular) are particularly skilled with a lightsaber?

Traya benefits from being powerful and dangerous with her Force abilities, even if she is not a superb lightsaber duelist. However, she was among the well-known lightsaber instructors of her time and her pupils included Meetra.

Its not like as if Sith Triumvirate was a walk in the park. You are trying to undersell the Meetra with these kind of assumptions.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The "high esteem" remark made me laugh; it reminded me about potential shortcomings of perceptions because Dooku found Obi-Wan easier to knock out then (padawan) Anakin.

And you think Anakin wasn't also held in high esteem?

The point is that Obi Wan by RotS, or even AotC:

1. Has vastly superior accolades ("one of the greatest of all time" >>> "master swordsman"😉
2. Has vastly superior feats

Compared to Revan era Scourge.

There is therefore no basis to put Scourge on his level, or on Shaak Ti's level, or on the level of any characters that surpass him in accolades, rank and feats, other than pure bias.

Nobody denies that Scourge was exceptional. This does not put him in the top 0.04% of his order, as Kenobi was.

Also, I am not assuming every (named) ancient character to be exceptionally powerful. 😂

Name a single named ancient character that you've actually argued to be below Qui Gon Jinn, himself one of the greatest saber duelists to ever live. Oh, wait; you seem to think that dark council member 103 is automatically above Obi Wan because he appears in a video game, right?

I hold Nyriss in such a high regard because of her performance against the duo of Scourge and Meetra. The background realities of both Scourge and Meetra are impressive by standards of the mythos itself. Nyriss may not be the strongest member of the Dark Council of his era but she reveals that how potent Dark Council members are in general. Their are more examples of Dark Council members being extremely impressive or powerful individuals. Fans should try to re-adjust their older perceptions about relative strength of characters in the mythos as per this latest update.

That Nyriss can defeat two powerful combatants simultaneously is "impressive" but hardly unique in the mythos, given that Grievous has defeated multiple Jedi together, and is inferior to Kenobi.

Unlikely! Canon literature (representing history) reveals that the PT era Jedi were "out of touch" in preparedness for major threats.

An obvious reference to their arrogance and inflexibility, not their explicitly spectacular dueling prowess.

I do pay attention to revelations from Lucas and other authorities but I do not forego actual canonical information in the process. Lucas, in particular, have history of making claims that may not sit well with canonical developments of the mythos so I tend to be cautious about using his personal statements as a source. Otherwise, I would be picking and choosing statements for my benefit in debates just like many fans may do.

You are correct in pointing out that out-of-universe statements, and especially in-universe narrations, should not be taken as proof but rather evidence. That being said, they cannot simply be dismissed out of hand because you do not like them, and I see no reason to disbelieve the contention that the PT era lightsaber duelists are, in average, the best in history. This is especially true when it comes to the issue of comparing lightsaber duelists from different eras, in which everything is relative - you judge one's lightsaber prowess mainly by their performance relative to other combatants within the same era, and there's no universal measuring stick.

This is in contrast with Force feats, which are half powerscaling, half performance against interchangeable phenomena, such as being able to move so much weight or destroy so much rock.

Well, their is ample room for creative liberties in the story of Scourge but to assume that he never met an opponent as formidable as Obi-Wan or possibly superior during his enormous span of existence is asinine.

By that logic, to assume that Vodo had never met an opponent as formidable as Exar Kun or possibly superior during his enormous lifespan is asinine. Or, we could develop your logic ad-infinitum and therefore argue that Scourge must be superior to Dooku and Mace Windu as well.

Whilst a duelist superior to Obi Wan may have surfaced during the time period, and probably likely did, you would need to establish that Scourge actually fought and defeated such a foe on even grounds.

Sith Emperor sent his first Wrath to eliminate "formidable threats" mostly. Canonical description is like this: "When a Jedi grew too powerful or a Sith too ambitious, Scourge eliminated the threat."

"formidable threats" is an incredibly vague term and certainly does not, by default, mean "among the greatest swordsmen to ever live".

The Emperor's Wrath position was part of the personal powerbase of the Sith Emperor and its purpose was to ensure that Sith Emperor is to be FEARED and not to be messed with. For this kind of position, only the top dogs qualified.

And? Relative to the mythos as a whole, Obi Wan certainly is a top, top, top dog.

(mind you, this entire line of thought is a red herring, since we're not talking about TOR era Scourge)

Even if for argument sake we assume that Drallig was not a walk in the park for Grievous, he isn't actually exclusive in this regard. We have a LIST of PT era Jedi who could match Grievous (I think that Baris qualifies for this list as well). On the whole, their might be many names who may qualify for this criteria.

You could say the same for Scourge. The point is that Cin Drallig already has a greater implied skillset than Scourge:

1. He's a master of all lightsaber forms
2. He's the temple battlemaster in the dueling golden age
3. He's one of the four Jedi specifically mentioned by Dooku that Grievous should avoid

Scourge, meanwhile, is a juyo master (impressive) and clearly enormously skilled, but he's not near the top of the Empire by this point, as in the top five or even top 20. He's exceptional, he's been noticed, but he's not occupying the position of fourth best duelist in the entire order like Kenobi has by RotS, for example.

Again, analogy: Scourge is an exceptional graduate student from MIT; Obi Wan is Neils Bohr.

The "unnamed" logic doesn't works in these kind of debates.

An unnamed Jedi collapsed two buildings around the position of Malgus, attempting to crush him in the process (Vader level strength at minimum).

LOL wut? Vader strength at minimum? The same Vader that's 80% of Darth Sidious?

While identification is good for consumers, it would be asinine to assume that "unnamed" individuals suck by default. Those unnamed lightsaber instructors held such an important position in a Sith Academy of a great Sith Empire for good enough reasons and also get the credit for shaping Scourge in to such a fine warrior. Try to think logically.

Your condescending attitude does not mask your inability to understand the issue of probability here; whilst it is possible that these lightsaber instructors were Cin Drallig's, barring further evidence the most probable conclusion is that they were your typical lightsaber instructors; certainly incredibly skilled, but not even within the top 1000 of all-time.

You, yet again, fail to recognize the difference between "exceptionally skilled" and "fine warrior", and "the master of soresu" and various accolades attributing Kenobi the rank of one of the greatest duelists of all time.

(cont)

(cont)

Well, good for him, but does this proves that he is superior to Scourge by default? No.

Does it "prove" anything? Since we're comparing the much harder of the two combat categories that usually relies on powerscaling, it's impossible to definitely "prove" anything. But, I can establish that my conclusion (Obi Wan defeats Scourge, and, as a larger picture, Nyriss) is significantly more probable than yours, because Obi Wan:

1. Has superior feats.
2. Has superior accolades.
3. Has superior ranking relative to his (superior) era.

If this makes you comfortable, be my guest! But underestimating him is not going to help your case.

That Scourge is exceptionally skilled is not in dispute. But you don't understand the difference between such an admission and his being on Obi Wan's level.

Remember that Nyriss handled the duo of Scourge and Meetra simultaneously without difficulty. Try to acknowledge that Scourge and Meetra are already among the heavyweights of the mythos and then try to comprehend Nyriss's extraordinary capabilities.

You have done absolutely nothing to establish Scourge as "one of the heavyweights of the mythos" at this point in time. What part of you fails to comprehend that being "exceptionally talented" does not put one on the level of one of the greatest in the mythos?

None of the accolades you attribute to Scourge necessitate his being above the top 5% in the sith order at the time.

Obi Wan, being number 4 in the PT order, is within the top 0.04%.

Do you see the difference here?

Even if we are to assume that Obi-Wan is more then a match for Scourge and Meetra individually (which I doubt due to so many reasons), their is nothing on Obi-Wan which lends credibility to the assertion that he stands a chance against the duo of Scourge and Meetra. And Nyriss sets the bar even higher then this "already very formidable duo."

Why not? Obi Wan has demonstrated that he's more than capable of taking on simultaneous threats, each individually far greater in feats and accolades than Scourge, or possibly Meetra.

Obi-Wan IS logically outgunned in this contest; we all know how good he is. Argument is not about Obi-Wan being a match for Nyriss in (pure) martial aspects of combat but argument is about Nyriss being relatively much more imposing and effective combatant on the basis of her extraordinary abilities. This is why she has advantage over Obi-Wan and this is why she is likely to dominate and eliminate him after some fight.

No, she's not, because Obi Wan has greater feats, accolades and ranking.

Sion have been promoted as a the best lightsaber duelist within the Sith Triumvirate and is canonically extraordinary difficult to knock out.

Do you realize how pathetic "extraordinarily difficult to knock out" sounds like? (especially since Meetra ultimately only defeats him via dun moch, so his immortality hardly factors into this)

And I would like a source, please.

Traya benefits from being powerful and dangerous with her Force abilities, even if she is not a superb lightsaber duelist. However, she was among the well-known lightsaber instructors of her time and her pupils included Meetra.

Circular logic insert aside, you haven't really established Traya as being a particularly skilled lightsaber duelist relative to persons such as Kenobi...because she isn't.

Its not like as if Sith Triumvirate was a walk in the park. You are trying to undersell the Meetra with these kind of assumptions.

It wasn't a walk in the park. But the Revan novel certainly does not portray Meetra as particularly powerful. It's not as if the Exile had to be a Force beast to accomplish much; isn't one of the themes of the story the opposite?

Kenobi wins.

Originally posted by Master Han
And since Revan has never demonstrated any particular aptitude for telekinesis, and never shot open that one door like Darth Maul did, I guess we should say he's inferior in that regards as well, right?

Unless otherwise indicated, we typically assume that one's ability in a certain Force area, with adequate training, is going to compare with others' talents proportional to their overall Force ability. Hence, we'd probably agree that Palpatine could beat Kenobi in a Force tug-of-war, even though Sidious really doesn't have many impressive telekinesis feats.

Inferior to whom? Revan does some things with TK in the novel, but nothing that really stands out as great. I do question if he could overwhelm Scourge with as much ease as Nyriss does though.

Not on this forum.

And Sidious does have some spectacular TK feats, like pwning Maul and Savage simultaneously, disintegrating metal and a few others that I forget.

Originally posted by Master Han
Yes, there is, oh-sarcastic-one. It's that the Clone Wars cartoon's narrative of events quite irreconcilably contradicts events detailed in the more recent animation.

Nah, it doesn't contradict it in that way other than in how it presents the level of action. Which is what you took issue with in the Tulak Hord thread, pointing out that its admitted to be exaggerated by the creators. In that case you were just fine with using an out of universe excuse to "handwave such discrepancies."

Originally posted by Master Han
I'm sorry, but this is laughably boneheaded logic. If the Exile "seemed" worthless because of out-of-universe errors in research, and assuming that such an excuse is even admissible, why should we take Nyriss's defeat of her seriously? By your own logic, Karpyshan envisioned Nyriss defeating an "Exile" far weaker than the Exile from KOTOR II that may very well have wiped the floor with her.

Again, you can't have your cake and eat it to. You either say that Nyriss defeats the "real" Exile, and that the real Exile isn't that strong, or you maintain your argument of PIS and therefore forgo claiming that Nyriss can defeat the KOTOR II Meetra.

To put it another way, the reason why we view the Exile as weak is because of her performance against the soldiers and Scourge's high but not exceptional opinion of her, actions that should, in your own logic, mean that the soldiers sent to arrest her are superhuman.

But thats not what actually happened in canon. Canonically, Nyriss beat the Exile.

Yes, I can. Nyriss defeated the Exile and did so easily in canon. But the Exile also stomped the Trayas Academy in canon. Both facts occurred, and they are not mutually exclusive. Its not as if anyone can say Nyriss can't beat Meetra. She ****ing did! You cannot re-write canon, but you can reevaluate it. In this case, the only option that actually exists is that Meetra is as good as she is in Kotor II and was still pwned by Nyriss.

Low showing, like Dooku getting beaten by pirates, or any of the million times Luke underperforms.

Originally posted by Master Han
Except that, since this Meetra's feats are too bad and therefore apparently non-canon, her losing to Nyriss, [b]which is part of why we consider her unimpressive, is also "non-canon".[/b]

Well then reconsider. If you think her unimpressive because of it, then maybe instead you should try thinking of Nyriss as impressive because of it.

Originally posted by Master Han
"charging" isn't necessarily visible. That dark council member didn't telegraph his own charging.

If it isn't visible and theres nothing to indicate its happening the.... it didn't happen. 😬

Originally posted by Master Han
No, you're arbitrarily flip flopping between "on the level" and "beyond", all based on nothing more than horrible circular logic.

I've made my belief clear.

Originally posted by Master Han
What makes you think Dooku's cannot? Is he not capable of disarming three nightsisters with said lightning while drugged? It's not as if he wasn't toying around with Anakin in AotC.

The fact that he's never done it. 😐

OMFG HE DISARMED THREE NIGHTSISTERS!!!? Big deal, there no evidence that Nightsisters are even taught how to block force lightning. He might as well have defeated 3 defenseless women.

The intensity and power needed to charr or disintegrate a body is still above anything he's done.

Originally posted by Master Han
"that's just not the case" isn't a really sustainable course of argument.

Neither is ABC logic. The difference is that I've outlined my argument across the entirety of my responses to you, showing you exactly why it is not the case multiple times, so your snide comeback is meaningless.

Originally posted by Master Han
Because Palpatine is orders of magnitude more powerful than Nyriss...

Yes.

But Nyriss charged up her attack. 🙂

Originally posted by Master Han
OK, let's assume for a moment that Nyriss's lightning surpasses Dooku's (even though her turn people to ashes trick really isn't that exclusive in the EU).

How does this put Revan's Force defenses on Yoda's level again? What arbitrary mathematics have you made up to conclude that "easily redirect Nyriss's lightning" > "barely stop Sidious's". Because since you admit that Yoda > Revan in overall Force ability, you'd have to prove that Revan's lightning-catching abilities are [b]disproportionately greater relative to his overall power, even though Yoda specialized in defending against the dark side. [/B]

It isn't exclusive, but we consider those who also demonstrate such raw power to be similarly at the pinnacle of Force Lightning displays.

Revan >>>> Nyriss' lightning, which is one of the greatest displays we've seen, able to utterly immolate a body despite having to chew through a force shield.

Yoda = Sidious' lightning. As of the time, the greatest feat he had done in regards to lighting was when he demonstrated the ability to turn as Sithspawn to ash in Sithisis. Now you could point to him pushing Yoda to the brink with it, but that relies upon Yoda's own abilities in regards to Tutaminis and as such are not great for comparison. We'd only be establishing Yoda's ability through looking at what Sidious has displayed elsewhere anyway, thus establishing Sidious' ability, establishing Yoda's. Circular logic, as you say. Naturally I would still give Sidious' lightning the nod as superior though, since he doesn't need to charge it. This is meaningless in regards to Revan's efforts with Yoda's though. However, the disparate ease with which Revan handles Nyriss' lightning is also a factor, ultimately suggesting parity with Yoda or superiority in regards to Tutaminis.

Also I don't have to prove that his lightning-catching abilities are disproportionately greater relative to his overall power, because that's already established by his actual feats.

Originally posted by Nephthys
But its the only massively impressive feat Revan has in the entire novel. Nowhere else does he demonstrate power and skill of that magnitude. He has no great TK feats. He has no great lightning feats. He has no impressive speed or duelling feats. He demonstrates nothing else thats noteworthy on the level of Yoda and Sidious. Nothing else in regards to his abilities puts him on that level. The only thing that does is the scenes where he handles Nyriss' and Vitiates lightning. Tutaminis is the only amazing skill he shows. Thats why his Tutaminis is the only aspect that he rivals Yoda in. Because in every other area Yoda is his clear superior in demonstrated power.

I am not sure if Mr. Karpyshyn was actually pressured by "higher authorities" to not explore Revan much in the context of his abilities in literature and maintain his ambiguity status to some extent (This character gets lot of attention from fans worldwide); I actually suspect this kind of intervention because it is hard to grasp that why the author would do such a poor job at exploring one of his own prominent contributions in the mythos unless he have been pressured by "higher authorities" to this end. Another possibility is that the author was not interested in writing a novel about Revan at all but was FORCED to do so by "higher authorities" and the end result is a seemingly half-hearted effort in writing a novel about Revan; I mean, the author utterly wasted a golden opportunity, but only fans are left with disappointment.

----

Now coming towards Revan's abilities:-

Their is clear-cut fluctuation in depiction of abilities of Revan in canon sources.

Analogy: Revan went from routing an army of Sith stationed on Star Forge to struggling against Six Mandalorians on Rekkiad in an encounter inside a chamber on a mountain. I am not trying to underestimate Mandalorians because some of them are among the toughest combatants in the galaxy (We have examples of a lone Mandalorian being able to hold his/her own against a powerful Force-user in a duel) but the author possibly overlooked the importance of hyping these 6 Mandalorians or that we have a contradiction in depiction of skill level of Revan. Heck, their is contradiction even in the novel itself; Revan easily knocked out a Basilisk based opponent with his abilities but struggled against 6 Mandalorians who were not willing to challenge the Basilisk based opponent out in the open due to fear of being outclassed and were actually pinned by the same opponent, but they somehow decided that they would stand a chance against Revan. 😄

The contradiction or fluctuation continued with Revan turning out to be very impressive in SWTOR game even after enduring extreme suffering in a span of 300 years: Revan is actually more impressive then Malgus in this game. If Revan's duel against an Imperial Strike Team is depicted in a high budget medium, I am sure that it will stun many viewers. In this duel; Revan bombarded the region with his FLS; could telekinetically manhandle player characters (or members of the Imperial Strike Team); bombarded the region with those gigantic rocks we see flowing inside the region; formed a protective shield around himself after getting injured which made him virtually invincible to external attacks; and eventually bended time and space with Fold Space like talent to escape from the execution. On the whole, very impressive display of power and talents even as per EU standards.

In the novel, Revan's feats are decent as per G-canon standards but not so much as per EU standards. In G-canon depictions, we can clearly observe prominent individuals such as Anakin and Obi-Wan not being as tough or even close to even the weakest depiction of Revan, and Anakin and Obi-Wan are supposedly above average Force-users even by G-canon standards. I think that Mr. Karpyshyn thought lot more on the line of G-canon depictions while writing the novel even though he left room for creative liberties by touting Revan as among the most powerful Jedi in the mythos and superior to any individual whom Meetra met in life in the same literature. At least, something can be done about Revan on these lines, if the author ever decide to explore Revan by taking full advantage of the creative liberties factor, should he get the opportunity or decide to do so.

The information provided in the novel makes it abundantly clear that Revan was not pushed to his limits at any given point in the events after Jedi Civil War till his encounter against the Sith Emperor himself. Only during this encounter, do we notice the signs of Revan being pushed to his limits or being close. Revan's feat of overwhelming Vitiate's mind dominating powers is arguably his most impressive accomplishment in the novel (IMO); while Revan gathered such power, he didn't eventually channeled or focused it towards a target but rather released it in raw form. It remains to be seen, what would have happened if Revan had actually channeled or focused this power towards a target. Revan was later on pushed to his limits in the context of his defensive abilities after the Sith Emperor began to bombard him with his Force abilities; it IS extremely impressive for Revan to being able to hold out for short while against such potent power, tolerating metal melting heat and pain (We know how potent Sith Emperor can get when he means business, like mass destruction level potent), even though Revan was saved from a terrible fate by his droid companion. A short while later, Revan stood up again (ready to fight again) after directly healing his serious injuries with his Force abilities without any aid (which is another very impressive feat).

As per the holistic picture, Revan is definitely up their with likes of Yoda and Sidious (even exceeding them in certain aspects). However, Revan suffers from lack of adequate exploration of his abilities or quality content featuring him. I hope this changes in the future.

Based on a few things Karpyshan has said, I believe his specific intention in writing Revan was that he wouldn't be making Revan that powerful and would be going out of his way not to make him overpowered.

Got this confused with Lord Nyax.

Quite possibly the worst designed character in SW history.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Based on a few things Karpyshan has said, I believe his specific intention in writing Revan was that he wouldn't be making Revan that powerful and would be going out of his way not to make him overpowered.

I understand the reasoning of not depicting Revan breaking a planet apart with mere thought (Mr. Karpyshyn actually gave this example in his official declaration; no, I am not kidding 😛) and also not being an unstoppable death-machine but he still could explore Revan in lot of impressive ways. In-fact, it would have been better if Mr. Karpyshyn would have decided to write a novel series featuring Revan in the same manner as he did with Bane. In this manner, the author would have ample opportunity to satisfy the curiosity of fans also do justice to his character. Unfortunately, a golden opportunity have been wasted.

Revan have decent rapport among majority of contributors of Star Wars mythos (Revan is officially acknowledged as one of the greatest legends of the mythos) and it wasn't necessary for Mr. Karpyshyn to be ultra conservative about this character in literature. His work seems to be based on G-canon norms rather then EU canon norms.