Originally posted by Master Han
I don’t see why you assume his command of the Force is drastically inferior to Nyriss’s.
To give you an idea, Scourge unleashed a Force push on Nyriss (which had sufficient power to send an average Force-user packing in similar manner like Obi-Wan send Grievous packing with his Force push) but it just slightly nudged Nyriss from her position.
Nyriss utterly dominated both Scourge and Meetra with her powers and would have reduced both of them to pile of ash or worse, if Revan had not interfered.
Originally posted by Master Han
He effortlessly deflects Dooku’s lightning in AotC, stalemates RotS Anakin’s Force push in RotS, and is described as a “vessel of the Force” in the novelization.
1) Dooku isn't as adept in the use of Sith lightning as Nyriss is; not even close. In fact, both Scourge and Meetra also handled normal bursts of Sith lightning from Nyriss (even these normal bursts of Sith lightning were so lethal that they reduced two soldiers to charred smoking husks in split-second moment).
2) Anakin is an "above average" Force-user but so is Scourge. And Scourge's telekinetic abilities were almost ineffective against Nyriss.
3) That "vessel of the Force" statement is just a poetic description of the ground realities of the Force energizing a Force-user, when a Force-user calls upon it to aid him/her for a purpose.
Now read this;
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"You have a special gift. You do not just feed on the raw emotions of your foe; you gorge yourself on them. You feast on their primal fear. It amplifies your hate and anger. It fuels the power of the Force. It transforms you into an instrument of death and destruction." (Nyriss to Scourge)
Scourge nodded. Battling a living foe was intoxicating; with each attack and counter he felt a rush of heat coursing through his veins, energizing and empowering him.
From SWTOR: Revan
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Scourge is likely to feed on power or emotions of Obi-Wan to fuel his own power in the process.
Originally posted by Master Han
If you think Nyriss is speedblitzing them Sidious style, I’d point out that Kenobi can actually deflect all of Grievous’s saber strikes simultaneously without giving significant ground.
Originally posted by Master Han
“expert” swordsmen has quite the wide breadth here, and duelists inferior to Kenobi, such as Grievous and TPM Maul, have taken on more than one master duelist at a time.
During the time of his service to Nyriss, Scourge was "expert" on such a scale that even his own instructors became reluctant to confront him in the academy during his final years their. Later on, in the position of Emperor's Wrath, Scourge became so powerful, smart and skilled that he struck down over a 1000 formidable adversaries during his life. It is obvious that luck alone cannot get an individual so far during confrontations.
Obi-Wan is a tough cookie to crack in martial aspects of combat but he doesn't compares to Scourge at holistic level. Obi-Wan isn't invincible in martial aspects of combat either; his effectiveness can be as much as his "command of the Force" permits him to be. Put Obi-Wan against Sidious and watch him go down without much of a fight.
Originally posted by Master Han
Even Dooku is impressed by Kenobi’s soresu skills. Also remember that Obi Wan held off and eventually defeated Anakin Skywalker, who Durge, who has centuries of experience, had earlier described as the fastest Jedi he’s ever met.
Obi-Wan performed well against Anakin because he had personally trained him and was well-aware of the latter's strengths and weaknesses. He doesn't have such luxury against Scourge.
Originally posted by Master Han
Notice a fundamental difference in scale here: Kenobi hangs with people described as being the top dogs of all time, whereas Scourge is merely considered exceptionally powerful. It's like comparing the top student in a random high school to Neils Bohr.
In history, only two individuals have managed to overwhelm Scourge in a span of several centuries. I am sure that Obi-Wan wasn't unbeatable even in martial aspects of combat, regardless of his "one of the top duelists" acknowledgement. Do the math.
Originally posted by Master Han
So what? Obi Wan is above Cin Drallig, who’s the temple battlemaster in the golden age of lightsaber dueling.
Originally posted by Master Han
Um, is Opress not above Ventress? Has Ventress not beaten Kit Fisto? Is Kit Fisto not described as one of the greatest swordsmen the Order ever produced?
Fisto specialized in Form I, which is more effective against multiple opponents rather a single EXPERT one. Ventress is proficient in Form II which is effective against Form I.
Originally posted by Master Han
Furthermore, Maul alone has defeated two prodigious lightsaber duelists, Qui Gon and Anoon.
Also, Maul matched Anoon but the fight took place in a setting in which Anoon decided to sacrifice himself to kill the Sith so we do not know how the fight would have ended in a more fair setting.
Originally posted by Master Han
I never said Scourge was a chump, but he doesn’t have the prestige and accolades of Kenobi.
Originally posted by Master Han
I don’t understand your logic here; why do you think “expert swordsmen” is a proper counterargument against a character who’s described as one of the best swordsmen in history?
Originally posted by Master Han
Yet her showings in Revan are not at all impressive.
She nearly matched Scourge in combat prowess.
Originally posted by Master Han
No, it really doesn’t. Beating two expert duelists at once isn’t really impressive to someone who’s beaten beings that have tooled two prodigious duelists at once.
Originally posted by Master Han
Um, her wound hadn’t healed by the end of KOTOR II. That’s how she defeats Nihilus, and presumably Traya. She uses dun moch on Sion, who’s never described as a particularly skilled duelist. She can take out sith monsters…whoopee, what are their feats again?
Meetra defeated Nihilus with assistance from her allies but she legitimately defeated Sion and Traya with her own abilities and talents. Dun Moch is also a talent and it can work on Jedi as well, if complemented with sufficient skill.
Originally posted by Master Han
The Exile is insinuated to be around Scourge’s level. Scourge at this point is regarded within the sith empire as being skilled and having great potential, but he’s still ordered around and looked down on by members of the dark council. Kenobi is one of the most powerful members of the RotS council. There’s a difference between expert and legendary.
Originally posted by Master Han
Um, you have a different definition of “heavyweight”. Scourge in Revan is a heavyweight in that he’s probably within the top 1% of his time. Kenobi by RotS is a heavyweight in that he’s within the top 0.1% of all time. Again, nobody in the novel puts him even within the top 20 of the sith order.
Originally posted by Master Han
Oh, and should I point out his almost getting his ass kicked by a bounty hunter?
In the same encounter, Scourge outpaced automated firepower of a big canon mounted on a speeder (in motion itself) and knocked out the speeder from its flight with his saber throw attack in a single attempt! Impressive feat on the whole.
Originally posted by Master Han
RoDV suggests that Dooku pulls off the choke because he’s faster. Dooku being a legendary duelist and a temple TK instructor.
Originally posted by Master Han
Do you seriously think “exceedingly difficult to kill” is a worthwhile accolade?
Originally posted by Master Han
Uh…Sidious’s lightning pushed Yoda to his limits. Revan turned Nyriss into a pile of ash with her own lightning like she was a joke.
It is. A single burst from her turned 2 armored guards into charred and smoking husks. Another burst tore through the Exile's force barrier and incapacitated her. Her charged lightning was capable of tearing through a force shield and turning herself into ash.
That she owned the Exile with it is impressive considering Mrs "killed 10 sith assassins just by walking passed them' Traya couldn't own the Exile.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Because he haven't demonstrated the capability to dominate two heavyweights with his Force abilities simultaneously.
Scourge and the Exile aren't heavyweights. "master swordsman" =/= heavyweight. "legendary swordsman" = heavyweight. "one of the greatest swordsmen of all time" = heavyweight.
To give you an idea, Scourge unleashed a Force push on Nyriss (which had sufficient power to send an average Force-user packing in similar manner like Obi-Wan send Grievous packing with his Force push) but it just slightly nudged Nyriss from her position.
Given that all Force users instinctively know how to protect themselves from Force attacks, to the point where neither Kenobi nor Skywalker think about trying to push the other off the narrow walkway surrounded by lava, this isn't very impressive. Especially given that Scourge has no Force feats at this point in time to put him on the level of Kenobi.
Nyriss utterly dominated both Scourge and Meetra with her powers and would have reduced both of them to pile of ash or worse, if Revan had not interfered.
Why do you keep suggesting that this is somehow relevant?
And interesting that you bring up the Revan debacle. Remember when Revan oneshots Nyriss into a pile of ash? 😉
Anakin is an "above average" Force-user but so is Scourge.
The Chosen One is just an "above average" Force-user? LOL wut?
I seem to recall his casually jumping off an airspeeder, falling hundreds of meters through heavy traffic, and landing precisely on the speeder he was tracking, deccelerating from terminal velocity to zero vertically, and a considerable distance horizontally, in a fraction of a second, without any injury or discomfort. This is as a padawan.
I also seem to recall Dooku being trapped by one of Anakin's Force walls. This is, again, as a padawan.
I also seem to recall that, when he gets sufficiently "in teh zone", he can turn Dooku's command of the Force into "a joke".
3) That "vessel of the Force" statement is just a poetic description of the ground realities of the Force energizing a Force-user, when a Force-user calls upon it to aid him/her for a purpose.
Yeah, and Kenobi uses it to deflect all of Grievous's saber strikes simultaneously.
Given that Grievous has himself killed multiple council Jedi at once, this is a helluva lot more impressive than beating two "exceptional" combatants.
"You have a special gift. You do not just feed on the raw emotions of your foe; you gorge yourself on them. You feast on their primal fear. It amplifies your hate and anger. It fuels the power of the Force. It transforms you into an instrument of death and destruction." (Nyriss to Scourge)Scourge nodded. Battling a living foe was intoxicating; with each attack and counter he felt a rush of heat coursing through his veins, energizing and empowering him.
From SWTOR: Revan
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Scourge is likely to feed on power or emotions of Obi-Wan to fuel his own power in the process.
Firstly, this fight is Obi Wan vs Nyriss, not Obi Wan vs Scourge. Secondly, Obi Wan is hardly one to feel lots of "fear" or "raw emotions".
Are you referring to Obi-Wan's feat of stopping Grievous's impressive blade-work during the opening stage of their confrontation? The novelization reveals that Obi-Wan let the Force guide his hand during such an action and it worked. However, Obi-Wan isn't exclusive at handling Grievous with his martial abilities; the list includes Fisto, Ventress, Vebb (as padawan) and possibly more.
Yes, and everyone on your list is a SW heavyweight. Scourge and the Exile, at this point, have demonstrated nothing to put them on their level.
Scourge outdueled two Imperial Guard individuals simultaneously in a setting which actually favored the Imperial Guard individuals. A lone Imperial Guard individual was skilled enough to match a well-trained Jedi/Sith in martial aspects of combat (Outside the Jedi and Sith Orders, Imperial Guard individuals were best fighters in the galaxy). The leaders of Imperial Guard were specially among the best duelists in the galaxy on the whole. When close to Sith Emperor, Imperial Guard individuals were nearly immune to even Force powers.
So what?
Obi Wan casually dispatches two (three?) magnaguards, a single one of which is considered more than a match for a Jedi Master, and are programmed with knowledge of all 7 lightsaber forms (making them technically more skilled than Kas'im), with far greater ease than Scourge does.
During the time of his service to Nyriss, Scourge was "expert" on such a scale that even his own instructors became reluctant to confront him in the academy during his final years their.
Not as impressive as Kenobi's "one of the best of all time" accolades.
Later on, in the position of Emperor's Wrath, Scourge became so powerful, smart and skilled that he struck down over a 1000 formidable adversaries during his life. It is obvious that luck alone cannot get an individual so far during confrontations.
Wrong thread bud.
Obi-Wan is a tough cookie to crack in martial aspects of combat but he doesn't compares to Scourge at holistic level. Obi-Wan isn't invincible in martial aspects of combat either; his effectiveness can be as much as his "command of the Force" permits him to be. Put Obi-Wan against Sidious and watch him go down without much of a fight.
OK, with all due respect, your continual inability to understand this simple point is beginning to get a little ridiculous.
That Scourge is an "exceptional duelist", "master swordsman" and "really powerful" is good and all, but it doesn't establish anything spectacular. The same accolades could apply to any number of Jedi and Sith whose ass Kenobi can kick.
Kenobi is continuously described as one of the greatest duelists of all time. Dooku is personally amazed by his abilities in RotS. Windu considers him the master of Soresu. Kenobi has tooled Grievous and held of the Chosen One, who the thousand years old Durge described as the fastest Jedi he'd ever met.
Notice the difference in scale here.
I don't care if Nyriss can handle the Exile and Scourge at the same time. Obi Wan has handled several magnaguards with casual ease, a single one of which can kill a Jedi Master. Obi Wan has handled with ease Grievous, who has tooled more than one council level Master simultaneously. I don't care if you think Nyriss's feat is impressive because Scourge and the Exile are "really powerful", because you'll need accolades and feats beyond that to elevate her above Kenobi.
I guess that Dooku would be in awe of Scourge's combat record.
By TOR? Debatable, although "in awe" might be an exaggeration.
By Revan? Nyriss is never established to be an above average council member. I don't understand why you think that all named characters, particularly ancient ones, must by default be exceptionally powerful. Scourge is established to be remarkably talented, but nothing legendary. Obi Wan, on the other hand, is already personally held in "such high esteem" by Yoda in AotC, and by RotS he's regarded as one of the GOATs.
Obi-Wan performed well against Anakin because he had personally trained him and was well-aware of the latter's strengths and weaknesses. He doesn't have such luxury against Scourge.
You mean against Nyriss.
PT era duelists are just more recognized for their talents then ancients on average in the mythos.
Because, on average, they're better, as per canonical statements by Lucas and Gillard, and as per specific references in the RotS novelization.
In history, only two individuals have managed to overwhelm Scourge in a span of several centuries.
That's speculative, since we don't know his entire combat history. And even then, I don't see how this makes him particularly impressive. The Emperor is only going to send Scourge to deal with enemies he thinks the Wrath can handle, and then Scourge, being essentially an assassin, picks and chooses when and where to fight, so it's not as if he's taking them on in fair fights gauntlet style.
And in the course of said 3 centuries, there's nothing to suggest that he's had to face anyone on the level of Kenobi. Obi Wan is a prodigy.
And how competent is Dralling excluding the hype factor?
Competent enough that Dooku warns Grievous to avoid him.
Yes, Maul beat Qui-Gon in fair manner. However, Gui-Gon doesn't compares to Scourge either.
Why, because he's a "master swordsman"? Because unnamed lightsaber instructors were reluctant to face him? 🙄
Qui Gon Jinn is, yet again, described as one of the premier lightsaber duelists in history. All of these people you think Revan-era Scourge can hang with are way out of his league.
You kidding me? Scourge have one of the most impressive combat records in the mythos till date.
Not by the Revan novel. At this point, he's considered to be exceptional, not legendary.
Sion was nearly immune;
Traya was stronger;
Nihilus was a monster;Meetra defeated Nihilus with assistance from her allies but she legitimately defeated Sion and Traya with her own abilities and talents. Dun Moch is also a talent and it can work on Jedi as well, if complemented with sufficient skill. [/B]
OK. So where is it specified that Sion and Traya (a former Jedi counsular) are particularly skilled with a lightsaber?
Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
Okay so.Exile Vs Kenobi
Scourage Vs KenobiHow does it go!?.
Kenobi would take the Exile with some difficulty. In a lightsaber fight he'd completely dominate her, though she'd use her Force Powers to recover.
Scourge would be much more difficult, being over 300 years old, having a Force-User kill count of over a thousand, the ability to completely gorge on the emotions of others, and having an immensely enhanced body... It could really go either way. I'd go with Kenobi though.
I want to mention this since you (Master Han) say it's rather unimpressive that Nyriss got pwnt by her own lightning:
Her lightning is described in the novel as powerful enough to desintegrate a being and tear through shields. The reason why her own lightning destroyed her was because it was actually extremely powerful, not because she was weak.
I'd go as far as saying Nyriss can beat Kenobi without so much difficulty. She pwnt the Exile and Scourge simultaneously with a lightsaber; both of them are extremely skilled so it should work as a reference to Nyriss' abilities. After that, she proceeded to pwn them with the Force, again simultaneously.
I rank Nyriss at approximately the same level as Dooku.
Originally posted by Col. Valerian
I'd go as far as saying Nyriss can beat Kenobi without so much difficulty. She pwnt the Exile and Scourge simultaneously with a lightsaber; both of them are extremely skilled so it should work as a reference to Nyriss' abilities.
Pwning two beings simultaneously is only conditionally impressive. Scourge and Meetra are "extremely skilled swordsmen", but such an descriptor has an enormous breadth of connotations from above-average to Palpatine level. It's a rather arbitrary leap in logic to argue that Nyriss can take Kenobi simply because she can defeat two "powerful" opponents (note that Kenobi has both taken on Maul and Oppress and two/three magnaguards, which are each capable of killing Jedi Masters).
After that, she proceeded to pwn them with the Force, again simultaneously.I rank Nyriss at approximately the same level as Dooku.
Uh, no, that's impossible.
The only manner in which you could put Nyriss on Dooku's level is if you put Revan above Yoda/Palpatine, since either one is markedly above Dooku, but Tyrannus could still give either one a decent battle. Nyriss, meanwhile, is "nothing" next to a drug-addled Revan.