Anakin Skywalker and Savage Opress vs. Obi-Wan Kenobi and Darth Maul

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The same novel muses that Dooku may be getting too old... The same novel mentoins tooku being tired and expending vital energy and force reserves just fighting off the duo. Again, Filoni said dooku was over confident and underestimated Anakin. All those things point to something other than Anakin being way more powerful than dooku as well

Whilst your contentions are true, the same passage also makes it clear that Anakin was far superior; with the sith lord's mastery of the Force being a "joke" and his legendary sword play being irrelevant. It wasn't just "the superior Dooku was nonetheless too old and tired to defeat Anakin".

That's the thing though... It was basically saying Dooku was more powerful but Anakin the better duelist if anything. It says Anakin made Dooku's mastery of the force i.e. better in the force a joke with his better swordplay. That passage doesn't mean Anakin is more powerful. Then when you add in the quotes I reference.. it becomes clear Anakin wasn't leagues beyond Dooku in power or the force.. just better in swordplay if anything. You can't just reference one quote as proof but then turn your head to other quotes pointing to something different.

Originally posted by Taay'hai
Savage only lasted 6 seconds shorter against Sidious than Maul did--yes, I counted.

But Maul clearly fought better the whole fight. Not to mention he stomped Opress when they fought for Mastership.

Originally posted by Taay'hai
And his superiority, like Kenobi's, is denied.

???

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That's the thing though... It was basically saying Dooku was more powerful but Anakin the better duelist if anything. It says Anakin made Dooku's mastery of the force i.e. better in the force a joke with his better swordplay.

That...doesn't seem to fit with Stover's description of the battle. It certainly makes more sense to conclude that Anakin's zone-rage made him stronger in the Force and more concentrated than to argue that his technical bladework somehow surpassed Dooku's. Remember that the passage describe's Dooku's mastery of the lightsaber as useless, not inferior. In contrast, his mastery of the Force is a "joke", which does suggest inferiority.

God bless Stover, but the Zonakin concept was so horrendously realized.

Maul can't warp his new humanoid cyber-legs into new claws that give him 2.16 height anymore, they aren't magically going to wrap Savage's face up and slam him down

Originally posted by Taay'hai
Maul can't warp his new humanoid cyber-legs into new claws that give him 2.16 height anymore, they aren't magically going to wrap Savage's face up and slam him down

Ok, that's possible. But I would still argue Maul's superiority (in Sabers at least) based on him fighting better against Kenobi and Sidious, both times both Brothers were fighting together so it's easy to compare.

And what did you mean about Kenobi's superiority?

I'd say Maul is superior to both Kenobi and Oppress, but Kenobi is superior to Oppress.

maul is not superior to Kenobi.. that is a total and complete joke... Kenobi wasn't turned into a midget like Maul was by kenobi...

Master Han... that doesn't make sense though.. We know Aankin's force powers were not on the same level as Dooku's. So that stance doesn't jive either. It makes much more sense that the passage in question means... Anakin's zone mode and saber skills made Dooku's mastery of the force irrelevant.

Originally posted by Col. Valerian
I'd say Maul is superior to both Kenobi and Oppress, but Kenobi is superior to Oppress.

I'd say Maul's probably the overall most powerful of the 3 of them.

But it's really not that simple with this trio. Tbh I actually think Opress might have the greater Raw TK Power between him and Maul.

Sabers I'd say Kenobi >/= Maul > Opress.

Force Powers I'd give it Opress > Maul > Kenobi.

Strength: Opress > Maul > Kenobi.

So I honestly think Opress could still be a serious threat to Maul or Kenobi if he uses a combination of his Beastly Force waves and follows it up by pounding on his opponent with his tremendous strength. Let's not forget this is the guy whose sent both Kenobi and Skywalker flying all over the place with a Force Wave. And the same guy whose floored Count frigging Dooku with his tremendous strength. Kenobi has never even come close to flooring Count Dooku.

You can believe Maul is the most powerful all you want... but that doesn't change the fact that Kenobi has outclassed Maul and Opress together.. and holds the most decisive victory over maul as a Padawan. Nothing you believe can distort this clear facts that make Kenobi > than either.

Lets not be hasty there. Maul holds the obvious advantage in terms of the Force, chucking him around in Revival and choking him in that dumb comic, and theres not really a decisive advantage in lightsaber combat. Personally I see them as equals, though I think its likely that Kenobi will be the one to kill Maul in the end.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You can believe Maul is the most powerful all you want... but that doesn't change the fact that Kenobi has outclassed Maul and Opress together..

Since you seem to ignore time frames I'll have to remind you that Maul has matched Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan together. Heck even in TCW Opress has sent both Skywalker and Kenobi together flying all over the place.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
and holds the most decisive victory over maul as a Padawan.

About as decisive as Vader's victory over the Emperor.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Nothing you believe can distort this clear facts that make Kenobi > than either.

And nothing you say will change the fact that Kenobi has been battered by Maul, Opress and Ventress individually all on different occasions.

But carry on talking about how Kenobi outclassed Maul and Opress once in TCW, yet ignore the fact that Maul was just fine at the end of that fight whilst Kenobi was disarmed and knocked senseless.
Or how Padawan Kenobi killed Maul with a weapon Maul didn't even realize he had, yet was floored and disarmed himself TWICE in fair combat by MAUL and would have surely been killed BOTH TIMES if not for Qui-Gon being there (Kenobi's canonically superior at the time who himself was clearly inferior to Maul).

Originally posted by Nephthys
Personally I see them as equals, though I think its likely that Kenobi will be the one to kill Maul in the end.

👆
That will almost definitely be the case given the events of Season 5. Of course killing in itself isn't the all and end all. I mean Vader did kill Sidious.

But yes they are peers, with Maul having the power advantage whilst Kenobi seems to be the slightly superior- swordsman, edit- and perhaps tactician.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Since you seem to ignore time frames I'll have to remind you that Maul has matched Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan together. Heck even in TCW Opress has sent both Skywalker and Kenobi together flying all over the place.

About as decisive as Vader's victory over the Emperor.

And nothing you say will change the fact that Kenobi has been battered by Maul, Opress and Ventress individually all on different occasions.

But carry on talking about how Kenobi outclassed Maul and Opress once in TCW, yet ignore the fact that Maul was just fine at the end of that fight whilst Kenobi was disarmed and knocked senseless.
Or how Padawan Kenobi killed Maul with a weapon Maul didn't even realize he had, yet was floored and disarmed himself TWICE in fair combat by MAUL and would have surely been killed BOTH TIMES if not for Qui-Gon being there (Kenobi's canonically superior at the time who himself was clearly inferior to Maul).

👆
That will almost definitely be the case given the events of Season 5. Of course killing in itself isn't the all and end all. I mean Vader did kill Sidious.

But yes they are peers, with Maul having the power advantage whilst Kenobi seems to be the slightly superior- swordsman, edit- and perhaps tactician.

A Terrible analogy as I've shown.... Sidious wasn't even paying attention to Vader.. he was "fighting" Luke and the time and Vader grabbed him from behind... and still got killed in the process. Horrible example compared to Maul ONLY fighting Kenobi... looking DIRECTLY at Kenobi... having the highter ground over Kenobi.. and still getting cut in half like the midget he still is. Not even close to the same comparison.

The whole thing about not knowing Qui-gon weapon wasn't there is total hogwash... Are you now claiming maul is a totally and complete idiot who has the memory capacity of an ant? He had killed Qui-Gon minutes early yet didn't realize his weapon was there. So not only are you claiming maul is an idiot.. he's an idiot who has no prrecog or shitty reflexes... which i'm still waiting for you to decide which one?

You also forget that NEVER as even a padawan did Maul disarm Kenobi in saber combat.. He disarmed him both times with the force and a kick. Kenobi disarmed him WITH HIS SABER in saber combat as a PADAWAN. Ohhh and NO maul couldn't have killed Kenobi twice... the first time he was sent flying off the ledge... Maul would've had to jump down there first at which point Kenobi would've been recovered and ready as the wasn't the least bit stunned.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
A Terrible analogy as I've shown.... Sidious wasn't even paying attention to Vader.. he was "fighting" Luke and the time and Vader grabbed him from behind... and still got killed in the process. Horrible example compared to Maul ONLY fighting Kenobi... looking DIRECTLY at Kenobi... having the highter ground over Kenobi.. and still getting cut in half like the midget he still is. Not even close to the same comparison.

Not really. Maul had no idea Kenobi had a weapon. So he really wouldn't give a crap if Kenobi wanted to jump up to him. They were both(Maul and Sidious) taken completely by surprise, not knowing all the facts. Simple as that. Not a bad analogy at all. Not perfect, but not bad either.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The whole thing about not knowing Qui-gon weapon wasn't there is total hogwash... Are you now claiming maul is a totally and complete idiot who has the memory capacity of an ant? He had killed Qui-Gon minutes early yet didn't realize his weapon was there. So not only are you claiming maul is an idiot.. he's an idiot who has no prrecog or shitty reflexes... which i'm still waiting for you to decide which one?

His pre-cog is as shitty as Sidious's, as neither of them saw what was coming.

As for forgetting about Qui-Gon's weapon, he was being idiotic, yes, due to his cockiness. As far as he was concerned the fight was over. Much like Sidious who thought he was safe before he died.

And are you actually claiming Maul didn't forget about Qui-Gon's weapon? Because I don't know if you noticed, but he specifically disposed of Kenobi's weapon but not Qui-Gon's.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You also forget that NEVER as even a padawan did Maul disarm Kenobi in saber combat.. He disarmed him both times with the force and a kick.

LOL What the heck's that's supposed to mean? Are kicks and Force Push's not part of combat now?

I guess Mace's win over Sidious doesn't count then, or Kenobi's win over Opress.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Kenobi disarmed him WITH HIS SABER in saber combat as a PADAWAN.

You mean partially disarmed him, not fully. Whilst Maul fully disarmed Kenobi TWICE.
So What? How did that help him? The only things that helped him survive the day were Qui-Gon, Qui-Gon's weapon and the element of surprise.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Ohhh and NO maul couldn't have killed Kenobi twice...

LOL Keep denying it pal.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
the first time he was sent flying off the ledge... Maul would've had to jump down there first at which point Kenobi would've been recovered and ready as the wasn't the least bit stunned.

LOL Talk about Total Denial? It would have taken Maul 2 seconds to jump down. It took Kenobi like a good 10 seconds to get back up and pick up his weapon again. And he was completely stunned! Knocked senseless, left hanging and disarmed of his damn weapon!

Maul clearly outclassed him. Again the only things that helped Kenobi survive the day were Qui-Gon, Qui-Gon's weapon and the element of surprise.

Stop being obtuse on purpose... There are KEY differences in both situations...

1. Sidous was fighting luke not vader
2. Sidious wasn't even looking at Vadar
3. Sidious didn't think Vader would betray him
4. Vadar wasn't on lower ground nor was he without a weapon
5. Sidious didn't watch vader fly up... call for his sword.. ignite his sword and not be able to react.

now compare in stark contrast to

1. Maul only fighting Kenobi
2. Maul looking DIRECTLY at Kenobi
3. Maul knowing full well Kenobi wanted to kill him
4. Maul was on higher ground vs. an unarmed foe he was looking at
5. Maul watched kenobi fly up... call for his weapon.. ignite his weapon and still couldn't react.

HUGE HUGE differences between the two.. it's a TERRIBLE analogy . The fact is, Maul got tooled by a padawan kenobi and turned into a midget.

Still, Maul could've impaled Obi-Wan in Season 5 when he caught the rabid fool in a Telekinetic grip, but he didn't want him dead, and Opress knew the consequences of killing Obi-Wan in front of his brother. If they wanted to kill him on Florrum, they would have.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Stop being obtuse on purpose...

It's not my fault you've failed so hard to prove Kenobi's "clear" superiority over Maul.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
There are KEY differences in both situations...

1. Sidous was fighting luke not vader
2. Sidious wasn't even looking at Vadar
3. Sidious didn't think Vader would betray him
4. Vadar wasn't on lower ground nor was he without a weapon
5. Sidious didn't watch vader fly up... call for his sword.. ignite his sword and not be able to react.

1. Sidious was taken by surprise, as was Maul.
2. Maul didn't even realize Kenobi had a weapon.
3. Maul didn't even realize Kenobi had a wepaon.
4. Kenobi hadn't just lost an arm and still had a Lightsaber available. Vader was armless and weaponless.
5. Maul never saw Kenobi grab hold of and ignite Qui-Gon's sword. Kenobi does that when he's just above Maul.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
now compare in stark contrast to

1. Maul only fighting Kenobi
2. Maul looking DIRECTLY at Kenobi
3. Maul knowing full well Kenobi wanted to kill him
4. Maul was on higher ground vs. an unarmed foe he was looking at
5. Maul watched kenobi fly up... call for his weapon.. ignite his weapon and still couldn't react.

1. They were not fighting anymore. The fight was over in Maul's mind. That's why he didn't just Force push him to hi death.
2. Yeah and? He had no weapon as far as Maul knew.
3. Maul having no idea Kenobi had the MEANS to kill him.
4. Clear PROOF that Maul MUST HAVE been taken by surprise, since we know from ROTS that's an impossible move to make under normal circumstances.
5. Nope, he didn't watch him ignite him weapon. Watch the scene again.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
HUGE HUGE differences between the two.. it's a TERRIBLE analogy . The fact is, Maul got tooled by a padawan kenobi and turned into a midget.

Oh yeah, tooled so bad that Kenobi couldn't even keep up with the fight Lol. That the best Kenobi with the aid of his Master could do was Match Maul. LOL LOL

Now you can answer a question you've consistently avoided in this Ultra Daft debate: If Kenobi is LOL so Superior to Maul that Maul can not even React to him coming from LOWER Ground, then how exactly is Maul EVER able to even fight Kenobi?

And how exactly did Qui-Gon get left to fight on his own.

Fact is the only decisive victories in that fight were all from Maul. Maul stomping of Kenobi smacking him all over the place and disarming him of his wepaon TWICE. And Maul defeating Qui-Gon (Kenobi's canonically proven Superior).

Fact is Kenobi would have been KILLED Both times if Qui-Gon was not there.

Oh and why the heck is Kenobi even getting Kicked and Disarmed while fighting alongside A JEDI MASTER, if he's LOL so much Faster than Maul and Capable of STOMPING him from Lower Ground??!

Just face it KT you've lost this one. Move on now, your only embarrassing yourself.

Originally posted by Taay'hai
Still, Maul could've impaled Obi-Wan in Season 5 when he caught the rabid fool in a Telekinetic grip, but he didn't want him dead, and Opress knew the consequences of killing Obi-Wan in front of his brother. If they wanted to kill him on Florrum, they would have.

Opress isn't beating Kenobi without using his Beastly Force TK Waves, which was probably difficult for him to utilize in that environment, without hitting Maul too.

Maul completely controlled Kenobi with that TK grip and should have finsihed the fight then, but I guess he consistently underestimated Kenobi's determination (as well as his skills) in that fight.

I have to agree with KT on this one. Kenobi's fight against Maul and Opress was a win for Kenobi. That being said, Kenobi certainly isn't far above Maul. But he is above him if we go by showings especially considering Maul's only win against Kenobi was when the latter was tired and exhausted.