Anakin Skywalker and Savage Opress vs. Obi-Wan Kenobi and Darth Maul

Originally posted by ares834
😐

I'm not arguing that Kenobi is superior to the brothers or anything like that. Merely that his performance against the brothers was better than Savage's against the Jedi.

That's not the point. The point is why are we continually taking Kenobi's performance agianst the Brothers as the norm, but claiming Opress' performance against Skywalker and Kenobi was a one-off?

As for a comparison between the 2 performances, Kenobi's Saber performance was obviously better, whilst Opress's Force TK showings were far superior. Whilst Opress had other distractions too - the droid army out to kill him.

As for Opress not actually defeating them both- Aside from the Droid distractions, if Opress did manage to defeat them both, it would have been a feat well above what Kenobi managed, seen as even Count Dooku seems unable to defeat Skywalker.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
DP used to vehemently repeat the same thing but finally conceded the logic of my argument. All Filoni says is that Obi-Wan wasn't going to lose [b]that duel in that situation.

Not to mention that "that duel" ended with Maul KO'ing Obi-Wan with a Force b1tchslap when sufficiently motivated.

Then Shadow Conspiracy outright states the crowded environment hindered the brothers. Then you have the fact that Maul sought Kenobi's surrender, not to mention his confession in "The Lawless" that he never planned on killing Obi-Wan.

I don't know why we should take an outlier feat for Obi-Wan as the norm when the Obi-Wan camp outright refuses to give the same consideration to the outlier feat in season 3 when Savage embarrassed Obi-Wan and Anakin together.

The same Savage who has "only grown more powerful" since leaving Dooku's service per The Clone Wars Episode Guide.

Camp Kenobi's argument hinges on lies and double standards. I can accept Obi-Wan being better than Savage and equal to Maul as a duelist, but Maul is unquestionably the more powerful and skilled Force user. [/B]

You tried this same argument before and I promptly put it to rest. You tried to argue that it was a circumstancial win for Kenobi which is totally false. You tried to cite Kenobi being focused as a reason... to which I say... It's much easier for a jedi.. a high end jedi to get focus. Regular humas can do it very easily and thsu a jedi can do it even easier. Thus, that isn't as circumstancial as you make it out to be. Kenobi can very easily get focused and repeat the same performance.

Then you tried to claim the surroundings aided kenobi and thsu that was another cicumstance that allowed him to win. Not only is that missing the point but it's being obtuse for no other reason than being obtuse. Kenobi was at a BIGGER disandvantage and thus whatever disadvantage you're tryign to claim becomes moot. Further, as I've shown in real life situations.... fighting in an enclosed area is never good for somebody fighting two people or more. The brothers had the numbers advantage and a tactical advantage and still got tooled.

The realiity is.. Kenobi holds the most decisive victory over maul than vice versa and there is no getting around this point. As a Padawan.... he turned maul into a midget. As he get better he beat him and his brother together. That is a outier at all as he has more impressive perfomances than Maul or Savage. Beating SIth Anakin for one is more impressive than beating the brothers. Kenobi is just that good that with proper focus these are the kinda things he can do.

lmao

Not going to rehash it out with you KT... DP has recanted and ares admits Obi-Wan isn't likely to do it again... that's enough for me.

The only thing that needs to be put to rest is your hard-on for Obi-Wan lmao...

lmao...

I do have a hard on for kenobi.. but luckily enough, logic and his feats are on my side. Kenobi is superior to maul and has demonstrated as much on numerous occasions.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I do have a hard on for kenobi..

Alec or Ewan?

lmao

Originally posted by The_Tempest
DP used to vehemently repeat the same thing but finally conceded the logic of my argument. All Filoni says is that Obi-Wan wasn't going to lose [b]that duel in that situation.

Not to mention that "that duel" ended with Maul KO'ing Obi-Wan with a Force b1tchslap when sufficiently motivated.

Then Shadow Conspiracy outright states the crowded environment hindered the brothers. Then you have the fact that Maul sought Kenobi's surrender, not to mention his confession in "The Lawless" that he never planned on killing Obi-Wan.

I don't know why we should take an outlier feat for Obi-Wan as the norm when the Obi-Wan camp outright refuses to give the same consideration to the outlier feat in season 3 when Savage embarrassed Obi-Wan and Anakin together.

The same Savage who has "only grown more powerful" since leaving Dooku's service per The Clone Wars Episode Guide.

Camp Kenobi's argument hinges on lies and double standards. I can accept Obi-Wan being better than Savage and equal to Maul as a duelist, but Maul is unquestionably the more powerful and skilled Force user. [/B]

You are taking his words out of context. Filoni explicitly states that Kenobi wasn't going to lose that duel because he was really focused and becomes even more focused when Adi Gallia dies. Filoni also makes a point of noting that Kenobi is an exceptionally skilled swordsman during this same commentary. So stop dismissing the feat as pure luck. The Savage situation doesn't have commentary from the director stating that Kenobi was essentially in the zone and not influenced by PIS, CIS, or being exhausted.

The only other duel we have with Kenobi and Maul, Maul cannot defeat him after an extended duel even after taking advantage of Obi-Wan's fragile mental state.

The fact that Maul, who is generally a silent combatant, resorted to Dun Moch on an already emotionally tattered and physically weak Kenobi to gain an edge, damns the concept that Maul is a superior duelist to him. Why would Maul deviate from his normal repertoire of techniques aside from the fact that he was facing a superior opponent.

As for why Savage's feats are different. They are, Savage was at an impasse with Kenobi and Skywalker. Not once were their lives in danger, neither party had any lasting injuries. Also throughout the Clone Wars series we have scenarios where Kenobi and Skywalker don't go all out against their opponents. Like Barriss and Skywalker for example.

This is different because the team who made it specifically made it a point to note that Kenobi's performance is what Kenobi can do when he is focused.

Doesn't mean he could replicate it all the time in any arena. But it does in my opinion put Kenobi above Maul in sabers. Not to mention that in the duel outside the cave earlier Kenobi landed a kick on Maul that disabled him long enough for him to go and nearly KO Savage.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
You are taking his words out of context. Filoni explicitly states that Kenobi wasn't going to lose that duel because he was really focused and becomes even more focused when Adi Gallia dies.

So he was exceptionally focused in that duel. I.e. It was a peak performance for him.

He also notes Kenobi won't lose "In That Fight, In That Situation," which also suggests it's context specific. The proof is he says the exact same thing about Kenobi and Ventress losing to the Brothers in the prior episode saying They were going to lose "In That Fight In That Situation."

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Filoni also makes a point of noting that Kenobi is an exceptionally skilled swordsman during this same commentary.

True but according to all sources, so is Maul.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
So stop dismissing the feat as pure luck.

I don't think he's calling it "luck." He's just saying Kenobi is not the only one to have outfought multiple opponents, each one in his own league, before. In fact Opress has overpowered Kenobi and Skywalker together.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The Savage situation doesn't have commentary from the director stating that Kenobi was essentially in the zone and not influenced by PIS, CIS, or being exhausted.

So the commentary makes Kenobi's the superior feat?

But the episode commentary on the official site states:

Savage finally finds his strength and attacks both Asajj and Dooku with a Force choke, hurling them against a wall.

Savage is engaged in a heated lightsaber battle with Anakin and Obi-Wan in the frigate hangar.

So seems like Savage was also "in the zone" and legitimately fighting them both off.

The fact that he floored them twice with Force Pulses suggests he was overpowering them both as well. In fact in the last scene they are both completely flattened to the floor with weapons deignited. If not for the droids he may have been able to take advantage and kill one of them.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The only other duel we have with Kenobi and Maul, Maul cannot defeat him after an extended duel even after taking advantage of Obi-Wan's fragile mental state.

The fact that Maul, who is generally a silent combatant, resorted to Dun Moch on an already emotionally tattered and physically weak Kenobi to gain an edge, damns the concept that Maul is a superior duelist to him. Why would Maul deviate from his normal repertoire of techniques aside from the fact that he was facing a superior opponent.

It was Maul's first fight in over 10 years. Plus his first fight in those new legs. Earlier that episode Maul was having trouble picking up his own Lightsaber.

Besides in the next fight Kenobi mocks Maul for stooping from Sith Lord to Pirate. Does that mean Kenobi knows he can't best Maul without over frustrating him first?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
As for why Savage's feats are different. They are, Savage was at an impasse with Kenobi and Skywalker. Not once were their lives in danger, neither party had any lasting injuries. Also throughout the Clone Wars series we have scenarios where Kenobi and Skywalker don't go all out against their opponents. Like Barriss and Skywalker for example.

See above.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
This is different because the team who made it specifically made it a point to note that Kenobi's performance is what Kenobi can do when he is focused.

Yeah and they had him ready and focused in his first one on one with Maul. And that was a pretty intense and evenly fought fight which went on for a while.

He was then "even more focused" after Adi's death suggests some kind of Peak Performance.

Now the question is were Maul and Opress also giving their Peak Performance in the cave? Sure didn't seem like it. Not one of those deadly Force Repulse's from Opress, and none of the acrobatics that are Maul's signature.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Not to mention that in the duel outside the cave earlier Kenobi landed a kick on Maul that disabled him long enough for him to go and nearly KO Savage.

It didn't disable him. It separated him so he could go help Adi. That was a long fought and pretty even Saber Fight between Maul and Kenobi before Adi died.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I do have a hard on for kenobi.. but luckily enough, logic and his feats are on my side. Kenobi is superior to maul and has demonstrated as much on numerous occasions.

When? And how does that have anything to do with Maul being on his team?

^ LOL I completely forgot they're on the same team here!

Back on topic Skywalker and Opress are more powerful than Maul and Kenobi.

Being more focused ISN'T a peak performance for a Jedi of the calibur of Kenobi.. that is almost an everyday thing. Nobody has pointed out anything cirucmstancial about Kenobi winning.

In all honesty, I think they are all equal in their skill divisions--Anakin's expert edge-cutting swordsmanship and zone-phasing, Savage Opress's unmatchable (in this situation, anyway) command of the Force and complete physical strength, Kenobi's defense mastery, resourcefulness and experience, and Maul's focus on about everything a Sith uses

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Being more focused ISN'T a peak performance for a Jedi of the calibur of Kenobi.. that is almost an everyday thing. Nobody has pointed out anything cirucmstancial about Kenobi winning.

Forget that Maul and Savage didn't want Obi-Wan dead, even though they had several openings on him?

😬

They may not have wanted to kill him, but they sure as hell didn't seem to be pulling their punches.

I am entrusting DP with the right to speak on my behalf as it pertains to this discussion.

DP, do not fail me.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So he was exceptionally focused in that duel. I.e. It was a peak performance for him.

Exactly. In the battledome we assume people are in peak condition for battles.

He also notes Kenobi won't lose "In That Fight, In That Situation," which also suggests it's context specific. The proof is he says the exact same thing about Kenobi and Ventress losing to the Brothers in the prior episode saying They were going to lose "In That Fight In That Situation."

I am not denying it isn't contextual. Nor am I suggesting Kenobi could replicate that feat in a non enclosed environment. But what I am saying is that you can't

True but according to all sources, so is Maul.

Yeah which is why I say Kenobi is a slightly superior combatant.

I don't think he's calling it "luck." He's just saying Kenobi is not the only one to have outfought multiple opponents, each one in his own league, before. In fact Opress has overpowered Kenobi and Skywalker together.

Except Savage didn't outfight them, and didn't leave them with any permanent wounds, nor did he force them into retreat.

So the commentary makes Kenobi's the superior feat?

But the episode commentary on the official site states:

Savage finally finds his strength and attacks both Asajj and Dooku with a Force choke, hurling them against a wall.

Savage is engaged in a heated lightsaber battle with Anakin and Obi-Wan in the frigate hangar.

So seems like Savage was also "in the zone" and legitimately fighting them both off.

Where does it say that he was winning that battle though? If anything that commentary suggest that they were at an impasse at best rather than Savage was winning.

The fact that he floored them twice with Force Pulses suggests he was overpowering them both as well. In fact in the last scene they are both completely flattened to the floor with weapons deignited. If not for the droids he may have been able to take advantage and kill one of them.

No it doesn't. And it certainly doesn't lean to Savage being a superior swordsman. A rage empowered desperate Savage using powerful force waves to floor an unsuspecting Kenobi and Skywalker is hardly surprising. Sith also are more powerful when they are desperate, which given Savage being punctured by multiple blaster shots, I'd say he was.

It was Maul's first fight in over 10 years. Plus his first fight in those new legs. Earlier that episode Maul was having trouble picking up his own Lightsaber.

Fair, but the time gap between that and his duel is questionable.

Besides in the next fight Kenobi mocks Maul for stooping from Sith Lord to Pirate. Does that mean Kenobi knows he can't best Maul without over frustrating him first?

Except that throughout the Clone Wars Kenobi always engages in what is essentially Jedi Dun Moch.

Yeah and they had him ready and focused in his first one on one with Maul. And that was a pretty intense and evenly fought fight which went on for a while.

Which culminated in Kenobi landing a drop kick on Maul. If we're going to give a win to Savage for a force push that knocked back Kenobi and Skywalker, then you have to also give Kenobi a win for that kick.

He was then "even more focused" after Adi's death suggests some kind of Peak Performance.

Which is what we typically use in a versus forum.

Now the question is were Maul and Opress also giving their Peak Performance in the cave? Sure didn't seem like it. Not one of those deadly Force Repulse's from Opress, and none of the acrobatics that are Maul's signature.

Again I don't think you are getting my point. In raw swordsmanship Kenobi is superior to the Maul brothers. If you throw in their respective force mastery they would dominate him

It didn't disable him. It separated him so he could go help Adi. That was a long fought and pretty even Saber Fight between Maul and Kenobi before Adi died.

Arguing that Savage was beating Kenobi and Skywalker because he got in a Force Repulse, is just as ludicrous as me arguing Kenobi won because he got in a kick in that duel.

Imagine what would happen to Obi-Wan and Anakin if the droids didn't show up, gg

What would have happened?

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmuuuurder?