Anakin Skywalker and Savage Opress vs. Obi-Wan Kenobi and Darth Maul

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Exactly. In the battledome we assume people are in peak condition for battles.

Do we? So do we use the Ventress who Force Choked Kenobi and Skywalker together?

Not being funny, I'm generally curious.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
I am not denying it isn't contextual. Nor am I suggesting Kenobi could replicate that feat in a non enclosed environment. But what I am saying is that you can't

I think you need to finish this sentence.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Yeah which is why I say Kenobi is a slightly superior combatant.

I actually don't have an issue with calling Kenobi a slightly superior swordsman to Maul. As long as we agree they are relatively on par in that respect.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Except Savage didn't outfight them, and didn't leave them with any permanent wounds, nor did he force them into retreat.

1. I would call flooring them twice outfighting them personally.
2. Is a combatants prowess decided by how many wounds he leaves?
3. Well it would be pretty amazing if he did considering he had a small droid army out to kill him on top of the Jedi fighting him.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Where does it say that he was winning that battle though? If anything that commentary suggest that they were at an impasse at best rather than Savage was winning.

So isn't reaching an impasse against both Skywalker and Kenobi impressive?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No it doesn't. And it certainly doesn't lean to Savage being a superior swordsman. A rage empowered desperate Savage using powerful force waves to floor an unsuspecting Kenobi and Skywalker is hardly surprising. Sith also are more powerful when they are desperate, which given Savage being punctured by multiple blaster shots, I'd say he was.

1. I never claimed Opress was a superior swordsman. It's his Force TK, backed by his physical strength that makes him dangerous.
2. A bit silly if Kenobi and Skywalker were caught off guard considering they are the ones who kept hunting him, and Opress force waves them about 3 times in that episode. He even force pushed their ship off a cliff, so they were well aware of his TK power.
3. Fair. So that was his peak performance right?

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Fair, but the time gap between that and his duel is questionable.

It was his first Saber fight in over 10 years and in his new legs. He was obviously not going to be on form. In fact Maul clearly had to fight for a while before he got back into it. Kenobi was even winning at first.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Except that throughout the Clone Wars Kenobi always engages in what is essentially Jedi Dun Moch.

So they've used Dun Moch on each other. What's the big deal?

Anyway I'll show you the scene in a second when the tide of that fight began to turn, and it was before the Dun Moch. But I agree Kenobi was winning it at first, and would have won if not distracted by Ventress losing her fight.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Which culminated in Kenobi landing a drop kick on Maul. If we're going to give a win to Savage for a force push that knocked back Kenobi and Skywalker, then you have to also give Kenobi a win for that kick.

Big difference. Opress completely floored the Jedi and left them with their weapons deignited. So it was a good opportunity to wound/kill at least one of them.

Maul was just pushed back (still holding his weapon fully ignited) so Kenobi could get away from that intensely fought battle to go help Adi. That didn't really look like an opportunity for Kenobi to do much to Maul.

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Please Maul didn't use acrobatics once since his revival. His entire fighting style changed. They couldn't use their force powers in that environment.

Agree about the environment. As for Maul's fighting style this is on his bio from the official site:

A relentless and acrobatic warrior with an extremely dangerous double-ended lightsaber

And he uses acrobatics here when the fight begins to turn between him and Kenobi:
Check 1:16-1:18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlJiphrbLyg

Btw rewatching that fight at Kenobi could have won at 1:01 and 1:08 (he's shown at 1:13 to still be floored). Like I said it took time for Maul to start fighting in form again after 10+years. But that's exactly the kind of thing that counts as a win to me. It would be a win if not for distractions.

And again Acrobatics and Really good Maneuvarability when he puts up his best perfromance against Sidious:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cxe0tmOmXi0

At 3:19 and 3:23.

So yeah in the Revival 2 on 1 when we have Kenobi being the one doing all the amazing maneuvering and acrobatics, with Maul just being a big brute, then I do tend to think it was a peak performance for Kenobi, but not for Maul. His last fight with Sidious was probably Maul's best performance, so Maul fighting like that vs Kenobi fighting the way he was in Revival would likely be a damn good Saber fight.

Originally posted by ares834
😬

They may not have wanted to kill him, but they sure as hell didn't seem to be pulling their punches.

It's not really about that (although Maul did ask Kenobi to surrender, something Anakin and Obi-Wan never asked Opress to do), but I'd say it's more to do with Kenobi fighting at his best while the Brothers clearly were not, partly due to the environment and partly due to the circumstances.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I am entrusting DP with the right to speak on my behalf as it pertains to this discussion.

DP, do not fail me.

ahah
Can't take you seriously with that sig.

Kenobi is maul superior and there is no getting around this fact. he has beaten him in the most decisive of any of their fights... he has beaten better people than Maul has.. as well as having the better feats in general. There is liteally no way to say Maul is his superior based on canon material. They are close sure, but Kenobi has the edge and there can be no denying this fact.

Yes there is...

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
ahah
Can't take you seriously with that sig.

Tempest has a sig???

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Do we? So do we use the Ventress who Force Choked Kenobi and Skywalker together?

Not being funny, I'm generally curious.

We should, considering state of mind shouldn't really influence a character in the scenarios we put them in. But her choking Kenobi and Skywalker, I think largely plays into their belief that she was defeated.

I think you need to finish this sentence.

You can't throw out or dismiss the feat entirely...is where I think I was going with that.

I actually don't have an issue with calling Kenobi a slightly superior swordsman to Maul. As long as we agree they are relatively on par in that respect.

Eh. He's a superior swordsman to Maul, but Maul is the superior force user, making them even.

1. I would call flooring them twice outfighting them personally.
2. Is a combatants prowess decided by how many wounds he leaves?
3. Well it would be pretty amazing if he did considering he had a small droid army out to kill him on top of the Jedi fighting him.

1. I do not. He caught them off guard with a force wave. Big deal.

2. Yeah. That's the way how it works in fencing.

3. It would be pretty amazing. But it ultimately wasn't.

So isn't reaching an impasse against both Skywalker and Kenobi impressive?

No because the impasse wasn't very long. Nor were Kenobi and Skywalker particularly intent on killing him.

1. I never claimed Opress was a superior swordsman. It's his Force TK, backed by his physical strength that makes him dangerous.

2. A bit silly if Kenobi and Skywalker were caught off guard considering they are the ones who kept hunting him, and Opress force waves them about 3 times in that episode. He even force pushed their ship off a cliff, so they were well aware of his TK power.

So? They got up shortly after.

3. Fair. So that was his peak performance right?

I'd say so. It's still impressive regarding the circumstances.

It was his first Saber fight in over 10 years and in his new legs. He was obviously not going to be on form. In fact Maul clearly had to fight for a while before he got back into it. Kenobi was even winning at first.

That's true. But I'd imagine Jedi and Sith's muscle memory is even better than normal people. In otherwords you get into the swing of things really fast. Also at the start of the duel Kenobi was using an unfamiliar saber.

So they've used Dun Moch on each other. What's the big deal?

Maul was deviating from his standard repertoire.

Anyway I'll show you the scene in a second when the tide of that fight began to turn, and it was before the Dun Moch. But I agree Kenobi was winning it at first, and would have won if not distracted by Ventress losing her fight.

Right, in spite of using an unfamiliar saber Kenobi was winning.

Big difference. Opress completely floored the Jedi and left them with their weapons deignited. So it was a good opportunity to wound/kill at least one of them.

Prove they could not have reacted to an attack at that point. It takes a fraction of a second to reignite a lightsaber.

Maul was just pushed back (still holding his weapon fully ignited) so Kenobi could get away from that intensely fought battle to go help Adi. That didn't really look like an opportunity for Kenobi to do much to Maul.

It was still a blow landed. Which is more than I can say for Maul at that point.

Agree about the environment. As for Maul's fighting style this is on his bio from the official site:

A relentless and acrobatic warrior with an extremely dangerous double-ended lightsaber

That clearly is in reference to before he died because it says with an extremely dangerous double ended lightsaber.

And he uses acrobatics here when the fight begins to turn between him and Kenobi:
Check 1:16-1:18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlJiphrbLyg

Btw rewatching that fight at Kenobi could have won at 1:01 and 1:08 (he's shown at 1:13 to still be floored). Like I said it took time for Maul to start fighting in form again after 10+years. But that's exactly the kind of thing that counts as a win to me. It would be a win if not for distractions.

And again Acrobatics and Really good Maneuvarability when he puts up his best perfromance against Sidious:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cxe0tmOmXi0

At 3:19 and 3:23.

So yeah in the Revival 2 on 1 when we have Kenobi being the one doing all the amazing maneuvering and acrobatics, with Maul just being a big brute, then I do tend to think it was a peak performance for Kenobi, but not for Maul. His last fight with Sidious was probably Maul's best performance, so Maul fighting like that vs Kenobi fighting the way he was in Revival would likely be a damn good Saber fight.

It would be a good saber fight, but I think Kenobi would win. Throw in the force and its even closer with Kenobi edging out the win.

Tell me... who is the best person Maul has DECISIVELY bested in combat?

Qui Gon Jinn -trollface-

Darth Vader. -trollface-

A clone of maul beating somebody isn't interchangeable with the real thing.. sorry not a good example... to say nothing of the fact that Kenobi beat a better version of Vader

Jinn - Meh... after his master was killed Padawan Kenobi turned maul into a midget minutes later... Hardly a great example to use.

Anything else?

Vader, Jinn, Bondara... Maul beat them all. Obi-Wan has beaten Ventress and Grievous.

So he hasn't beaten anybody of the calibur Kenobi has then? Why not just say that?

The vader win was a CLONE... regular maul doesn't get full credit for such a victory.. shit he'd be lucky to get half credit for it. Jinn.. as stated... after Jinn did.. padawan kenobi wtf pwned Maul into a pint sized red devil. The fact remains and there is no getting aroudn this fact... that Kenobi has beaten the better people including Maul himself. Feats say Kenobi is greater and he is.

Jinn is better than Grievous and at least very close to being Ventress' equal. Bondara is very good. Vader is good.

Not to mention, they stalemated in ''Revival'', and Maul was unquestionable holding back; ''I never planned on killing you''.

That aside, Maul is more trained, knows various martial techniques, has mastered more forms, has greater pain endurance, is at least as fast, stronger, more powerful, more aggressive...

Maul never actually defeated Bondara, although he pressed him as hard as he could he couldn't actually penetrate his guard. Bondara sacrificed himself to stop him, but because of that and the vagueness of the duel its impossible to judge if Maul truly was superior in terms of bladework or simply more powerful.

Pretty sure Bondara knew he was outmatched and hoped that the explosion could take Maul with him.

Yes.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Jinn is better than Grievous and at least very close to being Ventress' equal. Bondara is very good. Vader is good.

Not to mention, they stalemated in ''Revival'', and Maul was unquestionable holding back; ''I never planned on killing you''.

That aside, Maul is more trained, knows various martial techniques, has mastered more forms, has greater pain endurance, is at least as fast, stronger, more powerful, more aggressive...

So nothing still?

Maul isn't faster because he ws unable to react to Kenobi on lower ground flying in the air.. calling his saber over.. igniting it and cutting him in half. This was Padawan kenobi mind you. I would say Kenobi is faster. Kenobi is also the better tactician.. smarter... better with a saber.. mentally superior... What are you basing the Stronger on? Who gives two shits what his pain tolerance is anyways.. that has next to no bearing on a vs fight.

Kenobi beating Anakin is greater than anything Maul has done. There is no disputing and I'm awaiting your concession on this point... That kenobi has beaten the better people including maul himself.. correct?

Also Grievous himself is very close to being Ventress' equal, so Jinn being better than him would put him on her level. I doubt he actually is better than Grievous though.

Now remember KT: gentle strokes. Otherwise Old Ben might inspire some friction burns on your junk.

No... pointing out how Maul failed to react to Kenobi's attack in TPM is as poor an argument as you can make.

Kenobi's not a better tactican and not smarter. Not better with a saber, not mentally superior...

Maul has destroyed droids and bodyguards with his bare hands as an example of strength.

Pain tolerance is just another point where Maul edges it out...

No it isn't.