PoD Bane runs the gauntlet

Originally posted by The_Tempest
😂

That was me busting your balls in reaction to your double standards. Nobody said anything about a double standard post from you had to directly precede a ball busting post from me.

I can't be asked to get into a big argument over it. Lets just agree to disagree. Theres nothing else for me to add anyway, I've made my point. Anything else would devolve into nitpicking specific lines.

I made no double standard, you just started being mean for no reason. A reaction needs something to react to. I didn't do jack.

Originally posted by Master Han
I don't agree with the Tempest's claim that each successive generation of sith is absolutely more powerful than the last (this may indicate a general trend, as well as "power" in other categories),

You may or may not subscribe to my interpretation of the quote, but nonetheless, the Sith did factually improve with some respect to power (be it preexisting abilities, number of mastered techniques, or both) with each generation according to The Phantom Menace Scrapbook.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You may or may not subscribe to my interpretation of the quote, but nonetheless, the Sith did factually improve with some respect to power (be it preexisting abilities, number of mastered techniques, or both) with each generation according to The Phantom Menace Scrapbook.

Yes, but it doesn't work absolutely between every Sith; otherwise, Darth Maul would be more powerful than Palpatine.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I can't be asked to get into a big argument over it. Lets just agree to disagree. Theres nothing else for me to add anyway, I've made my point. Anything else would devolve into nitpicking specific lines.

lol ok

Originally posted by Nephthys
I made no double standard, you just started being mean for no reason. A reaction needs something to react to. I didn't do jack.

Again, no one said that for a reaction to occur, your double standards had to directly precede my ball busting in a post in any given thread. It might have happened on another contemporary thread and I simply posted my reaction to another one just to irk you.

Originally posted by Master Han
Yes, but it doesn't work absolutely between every Sith; otherwise, Darth Maul would be more powerful than Palpatine.

As I've already explained, we know from a number of sources ranging from George Lucas to Dave Filoni to The Dark Side Sourcebook that Palpatine is more powerful than Maul.

He is identified as an exception to this otherwise absolute trend. The fact that one exception is explicitly and consistently identified does not prove the existence of other exceptions.

Meaning until otherwise noted, it stands.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
As I've already explained, we know from a number of sources ranging from George Lucas to Dave Filoni to The Dark Side Sourcebook that Palpatine is more powerful than Maul.

He is identified as an exception to this otherwise absolute trend. The fact that one exception is explicitly and consistently identified does not prove the existence of other exceptions.

Meaning until otherwise noted, it stands.

This interpretation doesn't really make any sense. How, exactly, could you guarantee that your apprentice has greater Force potential than yourself? What are the chances of this even being true? You can gradually increase in knowledge, connections and skill, which ultimately will result in a greater average level of power in the long run, but Bane couldn't possibly expect that every generation of Sith would find someone more powerful to train.

Therefore, we can expect a steady, but very gradual and certainly not absolute, increase in power.

----

Also, you're sort of contradicting yourself here; if Palpatine and Maul's relationship goes against the norm, isn't it possible that this is because Maul simply wasn't intended to be a true successor (note that Plagueis was still alive while Maul was supposedly the other half of the RoT), and therefore you cannot conclude that he is above Bane?

Originally posted by Master Han
This interpretation doesn't really make any sense. How, exactly, could you guarantee that your apprentice has greater Force potential than yourself? What are the chances of this even being true? You can gradually increase in knowledge, connections and skill, which ultimately will result in a greater average level of power in the long run, but Bane couldn't possibly expect that every generation of Sith would find someone more powerful to train.

Therefore, we can expect a steady, but very gradual and certainly not absolute, increase in power.

If you're referring to power here as "midi-chlorian count," then I'd agree that there can be no reasonable guarantee.

But my conceptualization of power and one, I believe, is reflected in the quote instead refers to knowledge, understanding, technique, skill.

In the former context, TPM!Anakin was "more powerful" than Sidious and Yoda even at the tender and untested age of 9. But he couldn't hope to beat them in a fight because he doesn't have direct access to that latent power.

----

Originally posted by Master Han
Also, you're sort of contradicting yourself here; if Palpatine and Maul's relationship goes against the norm, isn't it possible that this is because Maul simply wasn't intended to be a true successor (note that Plagueis was still alive while Maul was supposedly the other half of the RoT), and therefore you cannot conclude that he is above Bane?

Palpatine's bullshit to Plagueis notwithstanding, a number of sources indicate Maul was trained legitimately in the Sith arts. Given that George and extant canon apparently recognizes Maul as such, we can conclude that Sidious fed Plagueis a bowl of lies and Plagueis eagerly lapped it up.

That said, there is no contradiction. At the time of Maul's first and second defeat, he hadn't grown more powerful than Sidious.

Nowhere do I write off the possibility that he could have become more powerful at the end of his training.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
If you're referring to power here as "midi-chlorian count," then I'd agree that there can be no reasonable guarantee.

But my conceptualization of power and one, I believe, is reflected in the quote instead refers to knowledge, understanding, technique, skill.

In the former context, TPM!Anakin was "more powerful" than Sidious and Yoda even at the tender and untested age of 9. But he couldn't hope to beat them in a fight because he doesn't have direct access to that latent power.

Darth Maul certainly has greater lightsaber technical knowledge and various combative skills than Bane, although it's questionable whether he exceeds Bane's knowledge in the Force, given his finding of the Revan holocran. But this doesn't lead us to the conclusion that he could defeat Bane in combat.

Palpatine's bullshit to Plagueis notwithstanding, a number of sources indicate Maul was trained legitimately in the Sith arts. Given that George and extant canon apparently recognizes Maul as such, we can conclude that Sidious fed Plagueis a bowl of lies and Plagueis eagerly lapped it up.

But again, this doesn't put Maul on Bane's level unto itself.

That said, there is no contradiction. At the time of Maul's first and second defeat, he hadn't grown more powerful than Sidious.

Nowhere do I write off the possibility that he could have become more powerful at the end of his training.

If Sidious had sensed such potential in Maul, he certainly would not have been so nonchalant about his death. As powerful as Maul was, he wasn't good enough for Sidious to consider him as a potential successor. Not even Dooku was much more than a placeholder.

Han has a point, If Sidious and Maul are exceptions to your quote, then Maul needn't be more powerful than Bane.

Originally posted by Master Han
This doesn't really put him on Dooku's level. Plenty of sith can disintegrate with lightning.

Correct, it puts him above Dooku in that particular aspect. Just like the other Sith who replicate the feat.

Originally posted by Master Han
Said Sith Lords are weaklings by Dooku's standards. Bane and Kas'im are the only sith of that era of any noteworthy power. Also remember that Dooku pulled off a similar feat against Obi Wan, and against three nightsisters while drugged.

I wouldn't call Qordis a weakling. Certainly he is no Dooku, but the man was the headmaster of the academy the most powerful Sith were trained in.

Originally posted by Master Han
Context: Kas'im said that while teaching the young Bane a basic tenant of Force/saber dueling that Dooku, being a legendary lightsaber fanatic, certainly would have grasped. Notice that by that point, Bane still wasn't entirely ready to defeat Sirak yet.

Again, I didn't say he was above Dooku. Regardless, Bane progressed to the point where Kas'im had nothing more to teach him.

Originally posted by Master Han
...this is supposed to put him on Dooku's level? Seriously?

No, it was a vague allusion to attributes I couldn't be bothered to quantify. Suffice to say I don't think Bane is outclassed in those regards.

Originally posted by Master Han
Impressive, but I doubt Dooku would give him time to charge up a Force wave.

Dooku at this point has vastly superior feats, taking on Yoda and holding his own, and Bane doesn't do very well against unfamiliar saber forms; Tyranus rivals Kas'im in technical skill.

😖hrug: It speaks of Banes telekinetic ability, and if he is able to buy himself space enough to do it I think it would rock Dooku hard or beat him outright. Maybe he could charge it during that 30 minutes of rest.

Dookus feats aren't vastly superior and I don't see why Bane would be unfamiliar with Makashi.

Originally posted by Master Han
Darth Maul certainly has greater lightsaber technical knowledge and various combative skills than Bane, although it's questionable whether he exceeds Bane's knowledge in the Force, given his finding of the Revan holocran. But this doesn't lead us to the conclusion that he could defeat Bane in combat.

Bane very well may surpass Maul with respect to random dark side trivia and might potentially beat him at a game of Sith Jeopardy with Darth Trebek, but I have no reason to believe such things would necessarily aid him in a martial contest.

That possibility conceded, I must again defer you to the quote, which says that Sith knowledge deepens over time, reducing the likelihood of Bane's dark side knowledge eclipsing Maul's as unlikely.

Originally posted by Master Han
But again, this doesn't put Maul on Bane's level unto itself.

Of course not. But that Maul was part of a generation whose knowledge and powers are explicitly noted to have grown with respect to Bane's, I regard him as the superior Sith.

Not to mention that Maul, unlike Bane, is explicitly referred to as one of the most highly trained and dangerous Sith Lords of all time.

This is virtually no different than our disagreement with Neph about Scourge vis a vis Maul. One is noted to be among the very best whereas the other is not, impressive feats notwithstanding.

Maul simply has better standing canonically.

Originally posted by Master Han
If Sidious had sensed such potential in Maul, he certainly would not have been so nonchalant about his death. As powerful as Maul was, he wasn't good enough for Sidious to consider him as a potential successor. Not even Dooku was much more than a placeholder.

Perhaps a placeholder compared for an even more potentially powerful candidate, a la Anakin Skywalker. But nowhere is Maul's potential definitively declared to be beneath his Master's.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Correct, it puts him above Dooku in that particular aspect. Just like the other Sith who replicate the feat.

Is disintegration (can he even do that by PoD?) above disarming three nightsisters while drugged?

I wouldn't call Qordis a weakling. Certainly he is no Dooku, but the man was the headmaster of the academy the most powerful Sith were trained in.

A position more of authority than power; Kas'im was subordinate to Qordis, yet their relative performances against Bane make it clear that the latter would lolroflstomp the latter.

It's likely that AotC Obi Wan > Qordis (by a lot), and Dooku toys with him.

Again, I didn't say he was above Dooku. Regardless, Bane progressed to the point where Kas'im had nothing more to teach him.

I didn't say you said that, and so had Obi Wan to Qui Gon Jinn. This doesn't put Obi Wan on his master's level by TPM.

No, it was a vague allusion to attributes I couldn't be bothered to quantify. Suffice to say I don't think Bane is outclassed in those regards.

In physical strength? He's above Dooku, not that it's terribly important. In speed? I dunno, Dooku can keep up with Yoda and speed-blitz Obi Wan.

😖hrug: It speaks of Banes telekinetic ability, and if he is able to buy himself space enough to do it I think it would rock Dooku hard or beat him outright. Maybe he could charge it during that 30 minutes of rest.

Yeah, I wasn't exactly thinking about such a loophole. Resting is just for resting. A no-holds-barred Dooku, IMO is dropping Bane in a matter of seconds.

Dookus feats aren't vastly superior and I don't see why Bane would be unfamiliar with Makashi.

Dooku's feats are vastly superior; he's given Yoda a good fight, and defeated even Anakin and Obi Wan together before the former went in teh zone.

Meanwhile, Dooku knows not only Makashi (which Bane couldn't have really known to any degree beyond mild proficiency, given his limited training), but pretty much every lightsaber form. He, again, rivals Kas'im, while being far more powerful in the Force.

could stop as low as 5 for me, with a bit more rest time he may make 7-8. might get lucky at 7 but don't see him even touching Yoda with full rest.

Loses at 5.

Dies at Kolar.

Originally posted by Nephthys
7, at least.

Originally posted by Master Han

Also, you're sort of contradicting yourself here; if Palpatine and Maul's relationship goes against the norm, isn't it possible that this is because Maul simply wasn't intended to be a true successor (note that Plagueis was still alive while Maul was supposedly the other half of the RoT), and therefore you cannot conclude that he is above Bane?

It doesn't really go against the norm because Maul never overthrew Palpatine to become Master. Maul was still very young at the time of TPM (younger than Padawan Obi-Wan I believe).

If Maul became the Master, killed Sidious by some fluke, but was still never as powerful as Sidious was, then you could argue the Rule of Two has not worked properly there.

Originally posted by Master Han

If Sidious had sensed such potential in Maul, he certainly would not have been so nonchalant about his death.

According to TPM Novel and Darth Maul's Journal(last entry by Sidious), Sidious was not happy about Maul's death.

However becoming Supreme Chancellor and discovering Skywalker probably put him in a much better mood about the whole Maul dying thing.

But fact is Sidious DID put a lot of time and effort into training Maul. He didn't do that just to pass time.

I also think he dies at 5, but barely. After all, this is PoD Bane, not RoT or DoE. If he managed to survive 5, he dies at 6.

I could be annoying and point out that if we're going by G-Canon considerations, Bane clears this with ease, goes find Sidious and makes him his lady, takes him dancing and on a few moonlit strolls while he explains the rule of two to him, introduces him to Dxun and his other former bitches, but I wouldn't do that.

If we're going by C-Canon showings (and ignoring G-Canon limitations) what are Yoda's better feats? He still gets past Dooku easily either way but I'd be interested to hear what Yoda's feats are.

PoD Bane gets past Dooku easily?

You must be smoking something hard.

Yeah, this is PoD Bane... No level of canon ever puts him on Dooku's level.