Feats vs Logic

Originally posted by ODG
If that scene causes you so much trouble, then you shoud note that he accomplished that while being amped under a blue sun. My dismissive thoughts towards your pointless "quote" of me isn't anger or projection. Next time someone throws your own comment back in your face, don't blame him.

And the mention of Thor has little to do with you, as I was responding to wolverinos, not you. Reread it.

Yeah. That's simply wrong. You are making the argument that a character can't do something fully within their capabilities simple because they haven't do it before. That's what's not logical. Now, if you are simply saying that doing action A would result in another character's automatic defeat, THAT is something that is theoretical. But the action itself is not.

Originally posted by ODG
If that scene causes you so much trouble, then you shoud note that he accomplished that while being amped under a blue sun. My dismissive thoughts towards your pointless "quote" of me isn't anger or projection. Next time someone throws your own comment back in your face, don't blame him.

And the mention of Thor has little to do with you, as I was responding to wolverinos, not you. Reread it.

Yeah. That's simply wrong. You are making the argument that a character can't do something fully within their capabilities simple because they haven't do it before. That's what's not logical. Now, if you are simply saying that doing action A would result in another character's automatic defeat, THAT is something that is theoretical. But the action itself is not.

Originally posted by carver9
The question should be "in a forum fight should there be an argument on Superman blitzing Hulk a thousand times before he can react, or Surfer opening a Black Hole in Superman head or turning his costume to kryptonite or trapping him inside his board...or should we debate on Thor creating a million tornados with the power of a thousand winds against Superman while raining down magical lightning while at the same time having Mjlonir speed blitzing him left and right.

None of these showings have been displayed in a comics but both Thor and Surfer are capable of this.

Correct

Originally posted by carver9
Who kept up with Flash Attosecond? Scans?

Originally posted by SamZED
Where do you stand on the subject and why?

Originally posted by Uriel005

Where was it stated they were moving at attoseconds?

Originally posted by Uriel005
At the same time it doesn't mean that like an idiot characters with speed are going to stand and take hits from people who are clearly infinitely slower than them either which is what a lot of debaters seem to think speedsters would do. Regardless eventually they will start to utilize more and more force as they feel out how their opponents will handle it. In the case of Superman vs. Hulk CIS off Hulk should never hit a light speed character with the reactions to match... He's really great in a stand up fight but asking him to hit someone who can keep up with the Flash's attosecond perceptions and speed is just something that should be off the table just as 99% of all comic book fights where any common mook lands a shot that effects a nigh invulnerable character or a character they just outright shouldn't land a shot on happens.

And Superman did not keep up with attosecond timing. That is a plain false statement. And easily recognized by simply reading the comic in question.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
Yeah. That's simply wrong. You are making the argument that a character can't do something fully within their capabilities simple because they haven't do it before. That's what's not logical. Now, if you are simply saying that doing action A would result in another character's automatic defeat, THAT is something that is theoretical. But the action itself is not.

IF Superman has never done it before, THEN you cannot argue that he definitely would do it if he only just 1) stopped holding back and 2) started cutting loose with his powers and superspeed.

Superman has stopped holding back in fights before. Many times. Superman has cut loose with his powers and superspeed in fights before. Many times. Superman has operated without character induced stupidity in comics many times. Work with what you have. Not with what you think he should have... just because.

That this argument seems to habitually fall on the deaf ears of Superman fans is perplexing. You never hear Surfer fans arguing that CIS-off Surfer sends his board at FTL speeds to instantly blitz defeat Hulk. You never hear Thor fans arguing that CIS-off Thor sends Mjolnir to instantly blitz defeat Hulk. You definitely don't hear these imaginary fans accusing everyone else of being foolish and ignorant of Surfer/Thor's capabilities.

Step back and reflect on that for a minute here.

Originally posted by SamZED
- Superman easilly beats Hulk by punching him 10 thousand times in a second.
- when has Superman ever done that?
- he hasn't. But he has the speed for it. We've seen him rebuild an entire city in a matter of seconds. Surely that's way harder than throwing punches.
- Well, he's never actually done it on-pannel so STFU.

I've seen a debate like that on various vs forums. Where do you stand on the subject and why?

Anybody saying that Superman doing something at superspeed that doesn't involve fighting, but for some reason that doesn't apply to his superspeed in a fight is, simply put, retarded.

That's like saying that just because Jim [a random guy] hasn't been in a fight in his whole life but has obviously been doing things that involve human speed, and a snail has been seen fighting other snails and doing well, it means that the guy couldn't blitz smash the snail. Or that he's not smart enough to do so.

pfft, tell that to turbo. sneer

Originally posted by SamZED
- Superman easilly beats Hulk by punching him 10 thousand times in a second.

Once is enough.

Originally posted by ODG
If it makes you feel better to call someone like Superman an idiot in comics because he does get hit all the time by slower opponents, then fine. I don't believe Superman is an idiot because he gets hit by slower opponents. There are reasons Superman gets hit by slower opponents. There are also reasons he doesn't instantly FTL speedblitz a Hulk-class foe to death. You don't care to reflect on why that's the case, but your willful ignorance doesn't change the 1,000s of issues of published fiction we draw from. Work with what you have. Not with what you don't.

And Superman did not keep up with attosecond timing. That is a plain false statement. And easily recognized by simply reading the comic in question. Read what I wrote. I am not here to prove a negative: Superman cannot instantly defeat a Hulk-class foe with 1000 punches before they could react. That is not what I said. What I argued is that Superman has never done so. That is a fact, and there isn't an argument against it. It's an undeniable fact you keep trying to cover up with allusions, illusions, strawmans and wishful thinking. And the import of that fact is what you're trying to avoid here:

[b]IF Superman has never done it before, THEN you cannot argue that he definitely would do it if he only just 1) stopped holding back and 2) started cutting loose with his powers and superspeed.

Superman has stopped holding back in fights before. Many times. Superman has cut loose with his powers and superspeed in fights before. Many times. Superman has operated without character induced stupidity in comics many times. Work with what you have. Not with what you think he should have... just because.

That this argument seems to habitually fall on the deaf ears of Superman fans is perplexing. You never hear Surfer fans arguing that CIS-off Surfer sends his board at FTL speeds to instantly blitz defeat Hulk. You never hear Thor fans arguing that CIS-off Thor sends Mjolnir to instantly blitz defeat Hulk. You definitely don't hear these imaginary fans accusing everyone else of being foolish and ignorant of Surfer/Thor's capabilities.

Step back and reflect on that for a minute here. [/B]

Edit: just because I have a feeling your going to ask for an example

How about any villain superman has fought in the dead of space who didn't have superspeed.

Lol. Im quite sure if a character can do something, then the writers would have shown them doing it. Especially if they have been around for so long. Superman has never thrown 1000 punches a second and to assume he can when its not portrayed even by his writers is wishful thinking. It will hold no water in a debate if it has never happened on-panel. I think feats that has happened on-panel works best in a debate. People tend to give characters fan boosted abilities in order to say that their character will win. You know this when they claim 1000 punches per second and neglect to even think about saying at least 20 punches per second, They always use feats that has never happened in the comics. Im sure they could sell the 20 or show scans to support the 20 per second. But as always, they tend to go way overboard FTW. With no proof whatsoever.

Originally posted by SamZED
- Superman easilly beats Hulk by punching him 10 thousand times in a second.
- when has Superman ever done that?
- he hasn't. But he has the speed for it. We've seen him rebuild an entire city in a matter of seconds. Surely that's way harder than throwing punches.
- Well, he's never actually done it on-pannel so STFU.

I've seen a debate like that on various vs forums. Where do you stand on the subject and why?

Most speedsters would make for dull stories.

The constant argument that speed doesn't win especially when matched with strength is tedious and why most comic debates are about writers intent rather then what the actual characters are capable of.

I thought my first post, the first post other than the Op would have ended this.

Cis, like prep should only be used on characters that have a level of stupidity that directly effects them in combat. (Ie. Creel, Rhino, Grundy)

Most people tend to use Cis to mean Forum mode though...

Originally posted by JBL
Lol. Im quite sure if a character can do something, then the writers would have shown them doing it. Especially if they have been around for so long. Superman has never thrown 1000 punches a second and to assume he can when its not portrayed even by his writers is wishful thinking. It will hold no water in a debate if it has never happened on-panel. I think feats that has happened on-panel works best in a debate. People tend to give characters fan boosted abilities in order to say that their character will win. You know this when they claim 1000 punches per second and neglect to even think about saying at least 20 punches per second, They always use feats that has never happened in the comics. Im sure they could sell the 20 or show scans to support the 20 per second. But as always, they tend to go way overboard FTW. With no proof whatsoever.

what a dumb post.
superman done things greater than punching 1000 punches a second.
your logic is just ignorant, basically you are saying if a man can stomp an ant, it does not mean he can stomp a different type of bug because you never saw him smash something aside of ant.
superman rebuild a city within a moment, thats speed of movement and throwing punches is much easier to accomplish.
superman speed blitzed his opponents and threw dozens of punches before they could even react in several situations already.
but people like you cant do 1+1, oh no... you need the writers to write everything down for you.
you need the writer to hold your hand and tell you directly, SUPERMAN CAN PUNCH 1000 PUNCHES IN A SECOND.
yeah right... then you say hyperbole or in case it will be a feat you will call it PIS or what ever people are using to dismiss anything they dont like.

I would argue that anyone capable of FTL travel would also have FTL reflexes. In the comic universes space isn't nearly as empty as it is in the real world. With thousands of space faring civilizations and entire planetary systems surrounding almost every star in the Marvel/DC universes anyone traveling at faster than light speed would have to react with ftl reflexes to anything that is coming at them. If I am traveling at 60mph and the car coming at me is traveling at the same speed, then reflex speed would have to be at least 120mph to avoid a collision.

Originally posted by wolverinos
what a dumb post.
superman done things greater than punching 1000 punches a second.
your logic is just ignorant, basically you are saying if a man can stomp an ant, it does not mean he can stomp a different type of bug because you never saw him smash something aside of ant.
superman rebuild a city within a moment, thats speed of movement and throwing punches is much easier to accomplish.
superman speed blitzed his opponents and threw dozens of punches before they could even react in several situations already.
but people like you cant do 1+1, oh no... you need the writers to write everything down for you.
you need the writer to hold your hand and tell you directly, SUPERMAN CAN PUNCH 1000 PUNCHES IN A SECOND.
yeah right... then you say hyperbole or in case it will be a feat you will call it PIS or what ever people are using to dismiss anything they dont like.

crylaugh

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
Yeah. That's simply wrong. You are making the argument that a character can't do something fully within their capabilities simple because they haven't do it before. That's what's not logical. Now, if you are simply saying that doing action A would result in another character's automatic defeat, THAT is something that is theoretical. But the action itself is not.
Read what I wrote. I am not here to prove a negative: Superman cannot instantly defeat a Hulk-class foe with 1000 punches before they could react. That is not what I said. What I argued is that Superman has never done so. That is a fact, and there isn't an argument against it. It's an undeniable fact you keep trying to cover up with allusions, illusions, strawmans and wishful thinking. And the import of that fact is what you're trying to avoid here:

IF Superman has never done it before, THEN you cannot argue that he definitely would do it if he only just 1) stopped holding back and 2) started cutting loose with his powers and superspeed.

Ah, I see. Apparently you don't understand the scope of the argument to begin with. And let me say for the record, I am the opposite of a Superman fan to begin with and this has NOTHING whatsoever with me attempting to defend this lame character. The argument is a intellectual one, that being whether or not someone CAN do something they have not been shown to do in the past. The question as it pertains to comics is a) whether or not and act is within their capabilities, b) whether or not it's likely to happen based on the set of circumstances including the character's known tendencies/beliefs and c) whether or not it would be successful. The only question I addressed is a: Superman IS capable of doing such based on his known power set. That piece is totally inarguable. And that's where I left things. I didn't argue b or c at all.

Originally posted by Uriel005
So assuming you were superman you'd stand and let class 100+ who are laughably slower than you, who you know could hurt you, punch you in the face.... This has been done w/ 0 collateral damage potential in comics and you don't think its... oh I don't know a little stupid. Maybe the character inspired type.

Edit: just because I have a feeling your going to ask for an example

How about any villain superman has fought in the dead of space who didn't have superspeed.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
Ah, I see. Apparently you don't understand the scope of the argument to begin with. And let me say for the record, I am the opposite of a Superman fan to begin with and this has NOTHING whatsoever with me attempting to defend this lame character. The argument is a intellectual one, that being whether or not someone CAN do something they have not been shown to do in the past. The question as it pertains to comics is a) whether or not and act is within their capabilities, b) whether or not it's likely to happen based on the set of circumstances including the character's known tendencies/beliefs and c) whether or not it would be successful. The only question I addressed is a: Superman IS capable of doing such based on his known power set. That piece is totally inarguable. And that's where I left things. I didn't argue b or c at all.

IF Superman has never done it before, THEN you cannot argue that he definitely would do it if he only just 1) stopped holding back and 2) started cutting loose with his powers and superspeed.

Superman has stopped holding back in fights before. Many times. Superman has cut loose with his powers and superspeed in fights before. Many times. Superman has operated without character induced stupidity in comics many times. Work with what you have. Not with what you think he should have... just because.

That this argument seems to habitually fall on the deaf ears of Superman fans is perplexing. You never hear Surfer fans arguing that CIS-off Surfer sends his board at FTL speeds to instantly blitz defeat Hulk. You never hear Thor fans arguing that CIS-off Thor sends Mjolnir to instantly blitz defeat Hulk. You definitely don't hear these imaginary fans accusing everyone else of being foolish and ignorant of Surfer/Thor's capabilities.

Step back and reflect on that for a minute here.

Originally posted by ODG
There are plenty of times Superman has led with his face, because he has said so on-panel. There are innumerable times where he isn't letting them hit him just because. How you decide to manufacture excuses is your own cup of tea. My suggestion is that you stop reading comics because they make Superman stupid in every issue for *gasp* getting punched. You must be infuriated every single time it happens. Or you're not. In which case, think about it. Read what I wrote. I am not here to prove a negative: Superman cannot instantly defeat a Hulk-class foe with 1000 punches before they could react. That is not what I said. What I argued is that Superman has never done so. That is a fact, and there isn't an argument against it. It's an undeniable fact you keep trying to cover up with allusions, illusions, strawmans and wishful thinking. And the import of that fact is what you're trying to avoid here:

[b]IF Superman has never done it before, THEN you cannot argue that he definitely would do it if he only just 1) stopped holding back and 2) started cutting loose with his powers and superspeed.

Superman has stopped holding back in fights before. Many times. Superman has cut loose with his powers and superspeed in fights before. Many times. Superman has operated without character induced stupidity in comics many times. Work with what you have. Not with what you think he should have... just because.

That this argument seems to habitually fall on the deaf ears of Superman fans is perplexing. You never hear Surfer fans arguing that CIS-off Surfer sends his board at FTL speeds to instantly blitz defeat Hulk. You never hear Thor fans arguing that CIS-off Thor sends Mjolnir to instantly blitz defeat Hulk. You definitely don't hear these imaginary fans accusing everyone else of being foolish and ignorant of Surfer/Thor's capabilities.

Step back and reflect on that for a minute here. [/B]

As for your second part... stop debating period. If you want to argue that then you may as well argue that all fights being debated on herald+ class shouldn't happen if they haven't had in comic fights. No one knows exactly how any character would respond to a character they haven't encountered. Supposing you have Sentry and Supes going at it, what are they going to do love tap eachother for fear of permanently crippling the other. People are giving you the proof that a character could do something and you acknowledge that but turn around and say that they won't. Great now prove that they wouldn't eventually resort to more drastic measures as a fight goes on. Or in your opinion do they carry on like a moron and continue to try the same thing over and over again knowing it won't work.

Originally posted by carver9
The question should be "in a forum fight should there be an argument on Superman blitzing Hulk a thousand times before he can react, or Surfer opening a Black Hole in Superman head or turning his costume to kryptonite or trapping him inside his board...or should we debate on Thor creating a million tornados with the power of a thousand winds against Superman while raining down magical lightning while at the same time having Mjlonir speed blitzing him left and right.

None of these showings have been displayed in a comics but both Thor and Surfer are capable of this.

Surfer opening a black hole in someone's head would kill them. Surfer doesn't kill unnecessarily. I'm not sure if Surfer has the capability to put a black hole inside someone. I know he can create one next to them though. Also you have the problem of creativity. Does Surfer even have the creativity to even think of that in a battle. I know I didn't before it was mentioned by a poster a long time ago.