Feats vs Logic

Originally posted by JBL
Yet another FAIL.

Originally posted by carver9
😕

Originally posted by Brockalizer
Your point? Unless there is some indication of how much time is taking place between panels then that's no more impressive than a Spiderman or Quicksilver blitz.

Harbinger is one of the most powerful beings in DCU. She killed Monitor in the COIE. Beating 7 of her bodies in a single blitz is damn impressive. Punching someone 1000 times only for them to shrug it off isn't impressive. Speed Demon punched Spock thousands of times and he wasn't even KOED. I don't want superman to have such a feat where his punching power is sold short for his speed.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Harbinger is one of the most powerful beings in DCU. She killed Monitor in the COIE. Beating 7 of her bodies in a single blitz is damn impressive.

Harbringer, the one who was killed by four of those Doomsday clones off panel and sparred with Supergirl IIRC?

Don't you think the power level she displayed in the Superman/Batman arc is far more relevant then her Pre-Crisis history?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Harbringer, the one who was killed by four of those Doomsday clones off panel and sparred with Supergirl IIRC?

Don't you think the power level she displayed in the Superman/Batman arc is far more relevant then her Pre-Crisis history?

Artemis sparred with supergirl.

What pre-crisis history? COIE is firmly in post-crisis history and her killing Monitor is referenced multiple times.

Originally posted by abhilegend
She wasn't killed by doomsday clones. She already saw her death by the female furies and didn't struggle with it. Superman even said that if Harbinger has gone bad, they were all in real trouble.

Artemis sparred with supergirl.

What pre-crisis history? COIE is firmly in post-crisis history and her killing Monitor is referenced multiple times.

The female furies? That's a far cry from trying to portray her as one of the most powerful beings in DC. That's a lie. Batman specifically said she put up a struggle and went down fighting:
http://wtfdccomics.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/superman-batman-10-21.jpg

And then he knocked her away without much fuss.

There's probably context to her killing the Anti-Monitor but that's besides the point. The way you phrased your statement, was a bit contradictory to the way she was portrayed to the story you posted. I just find that somewhat....deceptive.

Anyways, I just thought I should make a note of it to people reading this thread but everyone should know better by now so carry on.

Originally posted by Uriel005
I didn't say I hated it I just said it was a bit stupid. I've said the same thing about flash as well. There would be no story if they lived up to their potential in a lot of cases.

As for your second part... stop debating period. If you want to argue that then you may as well argue that all fights being debated on herald+ class shouldn't happen if they haven't had in comic fights. No one knows exactly how any character would respond to a character they haven't encountered. Supposing you have Sentry and Supes going at it, what are they going to do love tap eachother for fear of permanently crippling the other. People are giving you the proof that a character could do something and you acknowledge that but turn around and say that they won't. Great now prove that they wouldn't eventually resort to more drastic measures as a fight goes on. Or in your opinion do they carry on like a moron and continue to try the same thing over and over again knowing it won't work.

Your hypothetical is nonsensical. Superman has fought foes as powerful or more powerful than Sentry. Sentry has fought foes as powerful or more powerful than Superman. Is this supposed to be some groundbreaking news? If I want to think about how a fight would go between Superman and Sentry, I'd look at what they've done against similarly powered foes. And it tells a lot.

More to the point, what Superman's history doesn't show, is Superman instantly defeating Grundy with thousands of punches at the start of a fight. And that undeniable fact should inform you that maybe there's a reason for it. If you ever decided to get out of your delusional mindset and act like every time Superman gets hit, he's being stupid within the four corners of the book. That is no way to read comics, much less discuss them.

Originally posted by Uriel005
http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/6668/doomsdayrex118xm.jpg

http://dreager1.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/week01-2000-superman_v2-152-04.jpg
http://images.wikia.com/marvel_dc/images/f/fa/Imperiex_Probes_001.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/7/72524/2959691-6399402149-26293.jpg

because these guys are definitely slow-pokes with no reaction feats...

Originally posted by ODG
What I have seen is dozens of instances where Superman rushes an opponent with a flurry of punches. And rarely, if ever, do I see it result in more than a staggering of the Hulk-class foe. And there have been times where it kinda gets no-sold. That suggests something. And while that "something" may not align with preconceived notions, it's not like it's based on nothing.

It's based on comics.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
If you were going to concede the debate, all you had to do was say so. Are you obsessed with your own text or something? You've posted the same thing three times and I understood it the first time. Respond to my points or continue on having a conversation with yourself.

I am not telling you to reread what I wrote because I am enamored of the post. You're just acting like I'm the one who misinterpreted your post... except that post of your's was misinterpreting mine. I'm not the one who stumbled into this thread taking issue with you and massacring simple English to manufacture an argument with nobody. The opposite. So you who misread my first post and started talking past me like a moron, need to stop trying to rewrite history and act like the shoe's on the other foot. The conversation is plain to see if you can manage clicking back 2-3 pages.

So do yourself a favor and retrace the conversation and address me when you can understand simple English.

Originally posted by ODG
Except there are numerous fights where Flash instantly defeats a foe with thousands of hits before they can react. And fights with other superspeedsters where thousands of hits are thrown that leave characters like Superman and Wonder Woman in the dust. There's a difference between Flash and Superman.

Your hypothetical is nonsensical. Superman has fought foes as powerful or more powerful than Sentry. Sentry has fought foes as powerful or more powerful than Superman. Is this supposed to be some groundbreaking news? If I want to think about how a fight would go between Superman and Sentry, I'd look at what they've done against similarly powered foes. And it tells a lot.

More to the point, what Superman's history doesn't show, is Superman instantly defeating Grundy with thousands of punches at the start of a fight. And that undeniable fact should inform you that maybe there's a reason for it. If you ever decided to get out of your delusional mindset and act like every time Superman gets hit, he's being stupid within the four corners of the book. That is no way to read comics, much less discuss them. And not in one of these instances is Superman instantly defeating his foe with thousands of punches before they could even react. And none of them have even proven themselves to be faster than Hulk. At all. Moreover, two of those opponents pretty much no-sold the blitzes (including the weakest Doomsday ever). It's like you went out of your way to prove exactly what I said pages ago:

^ You can make the argument that Flash can instantly defeat the Rogues without ever getting touched because he has... in fact, done so. So you can argue that. As that would be based on comics. Heck, he came close to instantly defeating Wonder Woman before she could even react. So, there you go. But we're talking Superman here, not Flash.

What Superman hasn't done, is defeat a Hulk-class foe instantly with thousands of punches before he could react. There is no trick I am pulling here. This is comics. So you can ignore the complete absence of precedential proof all you want.

But that you would turn around and so brazenly post scans of Superman using his combat superspeed blitzes that get no-sold, aren't defeating his foe instantly, are merely staggering these Hulk-class foes... and act like you're not eroding your very own argument is baffling.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
The female furies? That's a far cry from trying to portray her as one of the most powerful beings in DC. That's a lie. Batman specifically said she put up a struggle and went down fighting:
http://wtfdccomics.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/superman-batman-10-21.jpg

And then he knocked her away without much fuss.

There's probably context to her killing the Anti-Monitor but that's besides the point. The way you phrased your statement, was a bit contradictory to the way she was portrayed to the story you posted. I just find that somewhat....deceptive.

Anyways, I just thought I should make a note of it to people reading this thread but everyone should know better by now so carry on.

Also She wasn't interested in fighting them because she knew her end was coming and it was necessary or some BS. Batman didn't come untill she was dead and Supergirl already gone.

He blitzed her seven bodies at once and knocked her out.

There isn't much context to it. Anti-monitor took control of her and then she killed Monitor. Despite what you think its actually a feat for her and superman actually realized just how powerful she was.

As usual you try to demean any feat which you don't like. I get it.

Originally posted by abhilegend
She wasn't killed by doomsday clones. She already saw her death by the female furies and didn't struggle with it. Superman even said that if Harbinger has gone bad, they were all in real trouble.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Who said punching someone 1000 times a second is the only way to blitz? With superman's strength, such a blitz would kill damn near anybody and that's why writers tend to avoid showing such blitzes. This is better anyway.

Good point, except for the fact that they never do.

Originally posted by Brockalizer
Hyperbole doesn't replace reality. Statements similar to that are common even, when characters go off the reservation i.e Thor. There isn't a doubt in my mind that Superman would say something similar if Batman or Green Lantern turned on the League. Doesn't mean Batman>>>Superman.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Batman and Green Lantern don't go on killing one of the most powerful beings ever seen in DCU like Monitor on regular basis.

Originally posted by Brockalizer
But they could, that is my point. Harbinger beating AM isn't anymore impressive than Iceman beating Oblivion IMO.

How many characters can do a feat like moving three universes at once?

Not many I guess.

Comic Writers should probably read the comments in this thread.And I see Superman is brought up again in this matter.And its true that statements like "Superman will throw a 1000 punches to defeat (Insert Character name here) in a sec!" statement in a CISless environment.And of course Superman has speed feats.But the problem is still providing scans to show that he can.I guess this is the time I would probably ask, "Where do we draw the line between feats and logic?" when it comes to certain characters.Its easier to say "Thor will BFR (Insert Character name here) to Ginnungagap(Asgardian Void) for the win!" statement than it is for "Superman will throw a 1000 punches to defeat (Insert Character name here)!" statement in a CISless scenario.Of course BFR is on that scenario.Why is it easier to say Thor will BFR his opponent as oppose to Superman throwing 1000 punches against his opponent?

Here are the reasons.

1.Thor has BFRed Opponents before like the Destroyer.,Juggernaut and etc.
2.You can easily insert the name of the place where Thor will send them.Ginnungagap is the Asgardian Void.Its just 1 of many places where he can send his opponent.It was featured in Thor Annual Vol 1 #5.Its viable in a CISless BFR on scenario.
3.Thor is a magical character.A God who possess Mjolnir that is capable of opening portals or simply zapping his opponent to some place or in some instances, teleport his opponents(forgot what issue it was in New Avengers) instantly.

The mentioned above is both a feat with logic inserted to it that is viable on a CISless BFR on environment Comic Character Vs scenario for Thor.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yes, the Female Furies who were giving a hard time to Wonder Woman and Barda in the same arc too.

Also She wasn't interested in fighting them because she knew her end was coming and it was necessary or some BS. Batman didn't come untill she was dead and Supergirl already gone.

He blitzed her seven bodies at once and knocked her out.

There isn't much context to it. Anti-monitor took control of her and then she killed Monitor. Despite what you think its actually a feat for her and superman actually realized just how powerful she was.

As usual you try to demean any feat which you don't like. I get it.

And I'm pretty sure they lost, no? Either way, my point is that Harbringer's power levels in the story relevant to Superman knocking away, were nowhere near her destroying the Monitor. Or moving three goddamn Universes when she was killed by some Furies off panel.

Not what Batman said.

Let me it this way: You're saying Superman took on Bad Guy No. 1 and in a previous story (That took place during a major company overhaul, especially the power levels) lifted a Universe when in the story with Superman, he'd be lucky to lift a bridge.

It just comes off as f*cking shady is all. Anyways, agree to disagree and all that.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
And I'm pretty sure they lost, no? Either way, my point is that Harbringer's power levels in the story relevant to Superman knocking away, were nowhere near her destroying the Monitor. Or moving three goddamn Universes when she was killed by some Furies off panel.

Not what Batman said.

Let me it this way: You're saying Superman took on Bad Guy No. 1 and in a previous story (That took place during a major company overhaul, especially the power levels) lifted a Universe when in the story with Superman, he'd be lucky to lift a bridge.

It just comes off as f*cking shady is all. Anyways, agree to disagree and all that.

Batman wasn't there when she was killed. He also said there were six furies when there are only four.

You have a proof that Harbinger wasn't that powerful, bring a proof. Or shut up. I don't care what you do.

It isn't shady at all. If it was Thor, you would post it whenever you could.

Originally posted by carver9
Why wouldn't Surfer create a Black Hole in someones head or turn their uniform to adamantium or phase his hands through their chest snatching out their heart or phase his board through them or absorb their energy or suck out their soul or turn small and fight them from the inside out. Surfer options are unlimited and if we are granting this done outside of what is shown in a comic to one character then we need to benefit all.

Like I've stated before, people like Surfer, Thor, Sentry, and even Nova Prime would be unbeatable. Their versatility is insane and they have the speed to do this before getting blitzed.

Last, it isn't common sense for Surfer to think of these things. Those things are very creative. Superman using speed naturally is common sense. No crazy ass creativity needed.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
Dude, charcters flying at light speed or more are not blind missiles launching themselves in a straight line, they are flying, perceiving and thinking. They aren't depicted like Tiger Beetles who are so fast, they run into things because their ability to perceived their environment can't keep up with their speed.

Basically, All material in space is more than a light second apart. That means anyone with 1 second reflexes can navigate at light speed without hitting anything. Talking about speed alone is meaningless. You have to add either time or distance.

ftl reflexes is being able to react to light speed attacks within a battle distance of 2 meters. Reacting to shit in space traveling at light speed isnt much if the shit is hundreds if thousands of miles away.