Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Training your personal army and taming Rancors tends to keep you in shape.
Fair enough.
Prove this. Because it certainly didn't seem gradual given that with her death the planet immediately became a nexus again. A nexus enough to consume Mariss Brood.
The burden of proof isn't on me to prove it either way. You can't establish how long it takes her to tame the nexus, and the fact that the nexus immediately returns after her death...doesn't really have anything to do with it.
Am I denying this?
No, but I fail to see how it's relevant.
"Anakin, he was defended by Stass Allie and Shaak Ti. If two
Masters could not prevent this, do you think you could? Stass Allie is clever and valiant, and Shaak Ti is the most cunning Jedi I've ever met. She's even taught me a few tricks.""He lacks entirely the flash, the pure bold elan of an Anakin Skywalker; there is nowhere in him the penumbral ferocity of a Mace Windu or a Depa Billaba nor the stylish grace of a Shaak Ti or a Dooku, and he is nothing resembling the whirlwind of destruction that Yoda can become."
So she's extremely cunning, and has the "stylish grace" of Dooku. That doesn't put her on his level.
Anakin looked at him as though he wasn't sure who the Gate
Master was. "Where is Shaak Ti?"
"In the meditation chambersApparently its in TFU databanks. I got this off of the wiki
"As the 501st Legion of the Grand Army of the Republic, led by Darth Vader, descended on the Temple, Ti rallied her fellow Jedi in an attempt to repulse the Sith and his minions. At one point Ti engaged Vader in a fierce duel. Despite her great skill as a warrior she was unable to defeat him. However, Ti did escape after managing to disorientate Vader."
Anakin was not seen crying during his actions in the Jedi Temple. Nick Gillard says after he fell to the DS, he became a level 9 duelist. Due to his abysmal performance on Mustafar and the extenuating circumstances around it, I'd wager he was talking about during the Temple Raid.
Anakin's being a level 9 doesn't contradict his duel with Obi Wan, since he has the upper hand throughout most of the confrontation. But given Obi Wan's performance against him, you can't really conclude that Shaak Ti is on his level because she "disorientated" him for a moment.
"Power moves served you well on Hypori against Jedi such as Daakman Barrek and Tarr Seir. But I pity you should you have to face off against any of the Council Masters."He called into hand his courtly, curve-handled lightsaber and drew a rapid X in the air - - a Makashi flourish.
"Do I need to demonstrate what responses you can expect from Shaak Ti or Obi-Wan Kenobi? From Mace Windu or, stars help you, Yoda?"
Huh. So they changed it from Cin Drallig to Shaak Ti. Although this is only mid-CW Obi Wan, and if you continue to follow the implicit progression, it's suggested that she's the lowest of the four.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Palpatine>>>>>Vader.
No. Palpatine>Vader. The gap as of ROTS isn't nearly as huge as you suggest.
Shit, even Suit Vader is 80% of Sidious. For all we know Peak Vader could be 85% or even 90%. Or did you miss Sidious' whole "Soon I will have a new apprentice. One far younger and more powerful."
More powerful than Mr. Tyranus.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Dooku has no idea what Shaak Ti is capable of, and it's ironic as she got destroyed even with the help of fellow Jedi Ki-Adi Mundi and Aayla Secura.
Oh, I see, so a beaten tattered Shaak Ti is a good measure of what she's capable of. Give me a break. Aayla is garbage. Ki-Adi is the only one worth mentioning. And he's clearly a skilled duelist as he forced Ventress into retreat.
Shaak Ti is clearly not below Grievous if Dooku clearly states she's above him when fresh.
Kolar has more and better accolades. Tiin has better Force feats and accolades. Koon has better Force- and skill feats. Fisto has better skill feats and accolades. Luminara has better skill feats. Mundi has better Force- and skill feats.
No they don't. All of them would be annihilated by ROTS Anakin.
Originally posted by Master HanThe burden of proof isn't on me to prove it either way. You can't establish how long it takes her to tame the nexus, and the fact that the nexus immediately returns after her death...doesn't really have anything to do with it.
If you tame a dog, when you kill its owner it doesn't immediately become wild again instantly if you've been training it for years. If you just trained it however and you kill the owner, it'll regress quickly.
So she's extremely cunning, and has the "stylish grace" of Dooku. That doesn't put her on his level.
And its implied that whatever Stass Allie and Shaak could do throwing Anakin in the mix would not have changed the outcome.
Anakin's being a level 9 doesn't contradict his duel with Obi Wan, since he has the upper hand throughout most of the confrontation. But given Obi Wan's performance against him, you can't really conclude that Shaak Ti is on his level because she "disorientated" him for a moment.
She didn't just disorientate him. She disorientated him after a "fierce duel." And sure it was on a LS nexus. But even on a DS nexus ROTS Vader would steamroll over Maul.
Huh. So they changed it from Cin Drallig to Shaak Ti. Although this is only mid-CW Obi Wan, and if you continue to follow the implicit progression, it's suggested that she's the lowest of the our.
It is not mid-CW Kenobi. The quote is from LOE which occurs right before ROTS. And I take back my statement that she's at least at Kenobi's level in bladework, considering his accolades. She likely is the weakest of the four.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No. Palpatine>Vader. The gap as of ROTS isn't nearly as huge as you suggest.
Shit, even Suit Vader is 80% of Sidious. For all we know Peak Vader could be 85% or even 90%. Or did you miss Sidious' whole "Soon I will have a new apprentice. One far younger and more powerful."More powerful than Mr. Tyranus.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The former temple battlemaster of the Jedi Order doesn't know what one of its esteemed blademasters is capable of? Yeah okay.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Oh, I see, so a beaten tattered Shaak Ti is a good measure of what she's capable of. Give me a break. Aayla is garbage.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Ki-Adi is the only one worth mentioning. And he's clearly a skilled duelist as he forced Ventress into retreat.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Shaak Ti is clearly not below Grievous if Dooku clearly states she's above him when fresh.
Let's focus on the fights, not Dooku's speculations.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
No they don't. All of them would be annihilated by ROTS Anakin.
Yes they would be annihilated.
ROTS Anakin is way above any Council member but Yoda and Mace. One-on-one against them he would win no doubt. Mace believed (in ROTS) Anakin was already the most powerful Jedi.
And yes, all-out I don't see Maul winning in any kind of scenario. Galen's Force powers are just ridiculous.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
If you tame a dog, when you kill its owner it doesn't immediately become wild again instantly if you've been training it for years. If you just trained it however and you kill the owner, it'll regress quickly.
At the least, it indicates it requires constant management.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Peak Vader? He was extremely conflicted. Palpatine would kick his shit in, hard.
The same Palpatine that kicked Windu's shit in amirite?
Right, I guess Dooku called Yoda and asked him about Shaak Ti's capabilities? Dooku's statement was more a way of telling Grievous to improve than anything.
You're full of it you know that? Did you forget Dooku was the battlemaster of the Temple for decades and served on the Council? +He's the leader of the CIS and would have heard of her accolades on the battlefield.
Yeah, having five Jedi as backup should even out being ''tired''.
"Surely we may have been exhausted, but when was the last time someone stood up to 5 Jedi and held his own."
"This General Grievous is changing the course of the war."
That is a high end showing for Grievous, just like him taking on Ventress and Durge simultaneously.
He forced Ventress into retreat with backup. They were even before then.
Uh no he didn't Ventress took down the gunship supporting him and used it to retreat.
Clearly, Mundi, who lasted longer than Ti and can thus be declared her superior, is only about Ventress' equal, who, with the help of Durge, couldn't beat Grievous.
Uh and then Ventress beat Grievous.
Let's focus on the fights, not Dooku's speculations.
Dooku's opinions are more qualified than you, plebe.
Sure... against a conflicted and twisted dark-side Anakin, and with the aid of an extremely powerful nexus? Don't think so.
Prove Anakin was conflicted at that point it's only later that we see him cry. He seems pretty resolute when he's talking to Padme after massacring the younglings in the Temple.
He also had no problem killing Cin Draalig one handed at that point.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
The same Palpatine that kicked Windu's shit in amirite?
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
You're full of it you know that?
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Did you forget Dooku was the battlemaster of the Temple for decades and served on the Council? +He's the leader of the CIS and would have heard of her accolades on the battlefield.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
"[B]Surely we may have been exhausted, but when was the last time someone stood up to 5 Jedi and held his own."
"This General Grievous is changing the course of the war."That is a high end showing for Grievous, just like him taking on Ventress and Durge simultaneously. [/B]
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Uh no he didn't Ventress took down the gunship supporting him and used it to retreat.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Uh and then Ventress beat Grievous.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Dooku's opinions are more qualified than you, plebe.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Prove Anakin was conflicted at that point it's only later that we see him cry. He seems pretty resolute when he's talking to Padme after massacring the younglings in the Temple.
When he's killing the younglings he looks pretty twisted.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
He also had no problem killing Cin Draalig one handed at that point.
Originally posted by Intrepid37
Can we stop with these redherrings?
It isn't a redherring. Mace said that Anakin is arguably superior to himself. Palpatine struggled against Mace, so there's no ****ing way he'd steamroll over Anakin.
Heard of her accolades? As if the Jedi talked about her skills over dinner.
Hmmm Sora Bulq defected, as well as numerous Jedi. All of which knew Shaak Ti. Dooku was the battlemaster and served on the Council. Yes he'd be familiar with the Order's more notable members.
No, it's how good old-Grievous is. He's pressed Dooku himself in a duel and roughly stalemated Mace.
That's my point. Grievous was a monster back then. And he never pressed Dooku.
Scans? And niehter gained any ground either way. It's the result of outside intervention.
You can use the internet yourself.
2008 Grievous, on a nexus.
Yes I am well aware. However the boost is unquantifiable and Ventress still handed his ass on a platter.
Sure, but hardly more qualified than actual fights and comparison of feats.
Which Dooku would have as battlemaster of the Order. So yes, his analysis would be superior to your own. Regardless the writers put that into the book to acknowledge Shaak's prowess. Why else would they change the novel to reflect that?
He was conflicted because he knew choosing the dark path was wrong... he was conflicted as soon as he cut off Mace's hand.
[QUOTE
When he's killing the younglings he looks pretty twisted. [/QUOTE]
He was one of the most powerful Sith Lords in history of course he looks twisted. A Sith officer committed suicide when seeing Darth Marr's visage. And Palpatine was hardly a looker.
And?
Two things:
To Intrepid: Ventress has become much more powerful during TCW, which is confirmed in the episode Nightsisters when Sidious orders her execution. So Grievous getting the better of her and Durge on their first meeting, when they had no idea who he was or what they were up against, does not mean he's her superior throughout TCW.
Ventress is almost a match for Kenobi who by ROTS is wasting Grievous. Even is she can't do it in Sabers alone, I have no doubt she would take him in an all out by Mid-Late Clone Wars.
To MY: Skywalker might be able to defeat Mace or Dooku (if not he would at least give them hell) but if it came to battling Sidious, the Force TK Gap between them is just too large, so I see Sidious tossing him around the way he tossed Maul around Imho (Unless of course he goes all Mortis Uber).
Edit- As for this fight Maul loses in all scenarios except Sabers. He wins that one. But if we look at the way Galen usually fights, and if we powerscale appropriately, it probably won't be a stomp. TCW Maul should put up a fight before he goes down.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERTo MY: Skywalker might be able to defeat Mace or Dooku (if not he would at least give them hell) but if it came to battling Sidious, the Force TK Gap between them is just too large, so I see Sidious tossing him around the way he tossed Maul around Imho (Unless of course he goes all Mortis Uber).
Incorrect. Sidious and Yoda by ROTS are virtually equal in ability. And yet Mace considers the possibility that Anakin is superior to himself and Yoda. Meaning that yes, Anakin would give anyone in the order a run for their money.
Mace doesn't say Anakin is arguably the best swordsman in the order he says he is arguably the most powerful.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Mace is an idiot. The guy also thinks Kenobi's a better swordsman than himself. Who cares what he thinks, he's obviously dead wrong.
If Mace and you got into a debate about who are the best duelists in the PT order, he would shit all over you.
Why do you think Yoda and Mace didn't want to put him and Palpatine together? Because as much of a disaster as losing Dooku to the Sith was, losing Anakin would be even more disastrous. People inherently don't like Anakin, myself included, especially Hayden Christensen's abysmal version, but stop ignoring the feats and accolades.
Hell there are people on this board who argue from here to kingdom come that Dooku is not Mace's equal because of his loss to Anakin because they simply cannot accept that Skywalker might have been top tier by the time of ROTS. And this is in spite of it being stated multiple times in canon that Dooku was an equal to Mace.
Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
If Mace and you got into a debate about who are the best duelists in the PT order, he would shit all over you.
Not really, since I have descriptions of people skills from omniscient sources and the ability to view events Mace isn't privy to, as well as several other advantages I could come up with if I thought about it enough.