Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nonsense. Judging by popularity would be silly (McFail would win). The cast of Jersey Shore never won an Emmy, fool.Shore would eat McFail alive. Shore pwned the U.S. Supreme Court. Twice. McFail is phytoplankton and Shore is a humpback whale.
McCoy was so good, he never had to have a case go up before the Supreme Court. The worst he's done was the US Court of Appeals, which he won each time.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I bet you're just pissed cuz your dick was so small. Speaking of:THE PETITE PRETTY JUNIOR
Jack McCoy's Penis
Ability : 30%THE PRETTY CANNON FIGHTER
Alan Shore's Penis
Ability : NoneI rest my motherfvcking case. estahuh
I thought you were speaking to me and then I saw you post small dick so I know you're not talking about me and my Five Dollar Foot Long.
Originally posted by sfriends23282
McCoy was so good, he never had to have a case go up before the Supreme Court. The worst he's done was the US Court of Appeals, which he won each time.
Both Supreme Court cases were brought to Shore by the client and his attorneys. When you need to defeat the Supreme Court, you go to Alan Shore.
Fvck you and your piss ant Court of Appeals. Call Shore when you're ready for the big leagues, son.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I thought you were speaking to me and then I saw you post small dick so I know you're not talking about me and my Five Dollar Foot Long.
An apt comparison. Your dick is as floppy as a sandwich, greasy teenages spit on it and when you squeeze it rotten cheese come out the end.
My dick is pure prime beef. 😎
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Both Supreme Court cases were brought to Shore by the client and his attorneys. When you need to defeat the Supreme Court, you go to Alan Shore.Fvck you and your piss ant Court of Appeals. Call Shore when you're ready for the big leagues, son.
Shore was a defense attorney correct? Because McCoy was a prosecutor, and so damn good that he didn't need no stinkin Supreme Court. He won his cases in state court and if he felt the slightest bit bored, MAYBE he moved to federal court just to screw with the defense.
Originally posted by sfriends23282
So sad. I accept your concession. Btw, if you're going to mention "law type" shows, make sure they're relevant to lawyers or would be lawyers. For instance, CSI (I don't know what CIS is) is relevant to detectives. Law and Order would be the show to watch for lawyers since it deals with statutes, legal procedures, precedence, etc. Good try though. Next time don't argue with your superiors.
I don't watch either, but thanks for taking your time out to explain the details of each show for me. You got where I was going with it though, which is why you said it was predictable that I brought up a law type joke.
And no, I accept your concession. You missed my sarcasm, or rather you claimed it wasn't sarcasm, suggesting that you don't know what sarcasm is. Then you mis-defined the term self-proclaimed (saying it meant you keep calling yourself something), just to turn around and post the accurate definition of the term, and then accused me of mis-understanding the word after I'm the one who corrected you on it.
Mis-direction and backpeddling are things you're falling back on (things you accused me of), because you failed to get to my post.
Originally posted by steveholt956 I dont recall insulting anyone's career and bringing their wife into the conversation but that's ok, I'll attribute that to selective reading. Also selective reading, allowing the PT era fans to disregard feats of characters they don't like.
This was in response to me calling you a lawyer, so by you accusing me of insulting your career after I called you one, seems to imply that you were proclaiming to be one.
Or is it that you accused me of insulting your career because you just wasn't cut out to be a lawyer? Because in order for me to be able to insult your career, I'd have to actually know what your career is.
So, were you claiming to be a lawyer or not?
And to everyone, yes right now I'm being childish and petty, but it's my day off and I'm bored, and arguments with this joke is sometimes more fun than debating SW characters. I actually like him.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I notice you didn't mention many of Yoda's main disadvantages while fighting on even ground, like reach and height, and the fact that Yoda uses a shorter lightsaber than most.
Can it be, that I didn't find it reasonable to adress this, because, well, Mace Windu has already done so? In case, you don't remember:
"Master Yoda's Ataru is also an answer to weakness: the limitations of reach and mobility imposed by his stature and his age." (Mace Windu, Revenge of the Sith novelization)
So, Yoda's style is specifically tailored to meet those disadvantages. To him, it is normal to fight from that position of disadvantage and hence, he has picked a lightsaber form accordingly. Now, pray tell: Does Sidious develop a lightsaber form focusing on fighting dwarf-sized Jedi Masters on equal ground? Does he have any experience with combating opponents of Yoda's height? I'd guess, the answer is "No". So. Could it be, that such a fight on equal ground would cause more disadvantages for Sidious, than it would for Yoda who – after all – was not only used to duelling opponents far bigger than him, but used a style to compensate disadvantages arrising from his lack of height and reach?
Going for the legs can be responded to by giving ground or a nice leap, which may leave Yoda open to have a saber sliced through his head.
Oh, yes. Actually, we have a very good example for what happenes, when attempting to avoiding such attacks:
"YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber[...]" (Revenge of the Sith script)
Now that's a really good way to win lightsaber fights.
Of course, that was a little bit polemic. Yet, you may want to consider, what constant leaping or giving ground would mean for a lightsaber duel. And what happens, if there is no space left for such manouvers? Not a great argument for your position, was it?
I also like the idea of Yoda "being open" for anything. We see him deflecting more than 40 blaster bolts from eight different ankles on screen in less than five seconds (Revenge of the Sith) and he has been shown to be capable of avoiding three Jedi Masters hacking away at him, without even igniting his lightsaber (Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter). So: Good luck with the counter-attack, which would be rather hard to employ, because you have forgotten a nice little detail here:
For example, when play fighting with my nephew, I'm able to reach out and touch his head before he is able to touch me, because I can easily give ground and reach out further. Same way with Yoda, his opponents have more reach on top of having longer lightsabers.
But yes, of course. This comparison definitely makes sense. Because your nephew is just as fast and strong as yourself and can, literally, run circles around you. Correct? And, of course, he is just 0.66 metres high (for those unfamiliar with the metric system: about 2 feet and 2 inches). I find the notion of yourself fighting superhuman babies rather amusing, but I guess, that wasn't what you wanted to tell us, right?
Nope. You wanted to lecture us about the huge reach advantage people would have compared to Yoda. Let's do a little reality check here: Would you please do a check of your "reach advantage" trying to touch something on one level with your upper legs? And, please, do share the results of that experiment here. Because, you see, if I stand up and move my hands to the same hight as my upper legs, they are, pretty much, touching said legs. I wonder, if that is different for yourself. No? Then we might conclude, that we must qualify that statement. Maybe some math can help us.
Your maximum reach with a weapon would be, as I said before, having it extended straigth, with the arm in a 90 degree ankle relative to your upper body. Now, holding a weapon in hand and lowering it with the arm extended, will – obviously – have the tip of the weapon move in a quarter of a circle from the aforementioned position to one where your arm is essentially parallel to your body. And now, while your absolute reach doesn't decrease (since the tip of the weapon is always at the same distance from a reference point on your body, e.g. your shoulder) your reach in relation to your body does, the more you move the weapon towards the ground. And it does so uniformly, given the circular movement.
For your average human, it holds through that extending your arms sideways and measuring from fingertips to fingertips, will result approximately in your height. With that premise, and following certain proportion concepts, the reach of a human being holding a lightsaber with a one meter long blade long blade, will be roughly 1.65 meters (tip of blade, arm extended in 90 degree ankle). As we know, that at an ankle of zero degrees the reach is likewise zero, we can mathematically conclude, that for each degree you lower your arm, you relative reach will diminish by roughly 1.83 centimeters for every degree you lower your weapon.
With a one meter long blade, however, the tip of your weapon will touch ground at an ankle of about 30 degrees. Which is, and you may want to check this in reallife – as I did – roughly 80 centimeters in front of your body (which is prove for the aforementioned formular of calculating the actual range). With about 1.40 to 1.45 in height at a 90 degree ankle, we can mathematically conclude, that every degree you lower your weapon, results in a lower height of 2.33 (140 cm / 60 degrees) to 2.42 (145 cm / 60 degrees) centimeters.
So the possible range of ankles you can swing your weapon at Yoda (i.e. 66 centimeter high target) would be from 30 degrees (hitting his feet on groundlevel) to 57/58 degrees (glancing hit on top of his head). Thus, the tip of your weapon (i.e. your maximum range) will be between 80 and 105 centimeters away from your body, while attempting to hit Yoda. That means, your range decreases by an amount of 36 to 52 percent compared to its maximum.
Now for Yoda. Assuming that the same proportions apply on Yoda that apply for humans – which appears to be the case from visual evidence, we can conclude that Yoda's arms are about 25 centimeters long. Now adding the length of his blade. The hilt has been noted with a length of 14 centimeters. From visual evidence, we can grasp the length of Yoda's blade, with appears to be round about 60 centimeters, giving Yoda a maximum range of 85 centimeters (tip of blade with arm extended). That means, if Yoda utilizes his full reach (on equal ground) and you attempt to land a hit on him, your range advantage is a grant total of 5 to 25 centimeters compared to 80 centimeters, if he's on one level with your shoulders.
So tell me once again: Who is in a position of advantage when they move to the chancellors podium? Yoda, who essentially gains nothing, with the exception of not having to jump as high to flip over Sidious head? Or Sidious, who negates a heavy loss of reach (one third to a half ot it actually) compared to fighting Yoda on equal ground? We may just ask ourselves who picks that place for the fight in order to arrive at the correct conclusion: Sidious.
Furthermore, your point is easily debunked by the fact that Yoda doesn't really rely on foot work during saber duel, but instead relies on acrobats, never staying on the ground for long, and often tries to find higher parts to leap on. In fact, most of his attacks occur while he is in mid-air.
So, essentially, you're telling the audience, that Yoda's very style is based on jumping around his opponents, even when the fight occurs on equal grounds. So we can conclude, that he doesn't gain much from his position relative to Sidious, but needs to adjustice the usual hight of his manouvers, when not on one level with his opponent, correct? This compared to Sidious not needing to adjust the height of his attack, sacrificing half of his actual range and a lot of offensive options in the process. Thanks for "debunking" my point, that the position is by far more to Sidious advantage in comparison to Yoda.
So again, Yoda was not at a disadvantage on the platform him and Sidious were fighting on; he had room to do circles around Sidious,
You do realize, that I argued Sidious was in a position of relative advantage compared to Yoda, with "relative" being an allusion to "in relation to being on equal ground with Yoda", right? So, thanks for "debunking" an argument that I haven't even made. Applause. Now go get some reading comprehension.
and he also had higher parts to rest on while he overpowered Sidious in saber locks, which is something he couldn't do with Dooku, as he didn't have anything to stand on in order to force Dooku's saber down. (This debunks your claim that Dooku did better just because he didn't make the grunts Sidious did. We know for a fact that if he can overpower Sidious in a saber lock, he can most certainly do the same to Dooku with far more ease, considering that Sidious is far stronger than Dooku considering both their performances against Savage)
Gosh. I've seldomly seen so many false assumptions pressed into so little text.
First: Yoda, even when on the side of the podium, is not on a "higher part" relative to Sidious himself, meaning the "leverage" you suppose for Yoda here does not exists, because he is still fighting "upwards" when compared to Sidious.
Second: You do realize that the first saberlock between Yoda and Sidious happens on equal ground and Yoda still overpowers Sidious, right? Apparently not. So we have factual evidence that Yoda can do it on equal ground just as easy as from your supposed "higher ground".
Third: I really don't get, how you draw conclusions regarding (physical) strength of Dooku / Sidious from their clashes with Savage. Using his brute force based power swipes, Savage is capable of flooring Dooku, yes. Where does he utilize those against Sidious exactly. Perhabs in one single situation, where he sends Sidious flying over the edge. So? Where do you conclude from there, that Sidious is physically more powerful than Dooku (even considering force aided strength here)?
The only advantage Sidious had on the platform, was not having to defend his lower and middle section as much, and not having to bend over to try to attack Yoda, but that's about it.
Yeah. Not losing up to 52 percent of your actual reach and not having to limit yourself to low attacks is, clearly, no considerable advantage. What was I thinking? 🙄
Though that wasn't the case throughout their entire duel, as it started on even ground, and when they took it to the confined platform, there were times Yoda was fighting on the lower section, but ironically chose to stay on the higher part for the majority of the fight, hmm?
And when he went down to the equal ground, Sidious was forced to drop his weapon. You want irony? There you go. Oh, stop. I can even top that level of irony, by pointing to the fight between Sidious and Dooku/Opress. There, Sidious is forced over an edge, but apparently doesn't bother with dropping one of his two lightsabers. I wonder, why he didn't utilize the same tactic against Yoda. Maybe because he either realized, that the Jedi would resist such a force pull? Or, and I find this quite more reasonable, because he knew he couldn't take Yoda in a lightsaber duel?
None of that was taken away from Yoda in the confined space, as Yoda was constantly doing acrobatic maneuvers around Sidious. And Yoda doesn't need wider swings to even out his lack of strength, he has the force to enhance is physical strength just as Sidious does. Furthermore, where do you get that he was unable to throw wider swings. Stop talking out of your ass lol. Again, Yoda was hardly affected by the confined, certainly not to the extent that Sidious was.
But of course. Because Sidious fighting style does rely heavily on elaborated acrobatics, which we saw in his confrontation with the Jedi team and later Mace Windu. All those acrobatics there. Completely compareable to Yoda. What was I thinking. 🙄
Apparently, I was thinking, that Sidious wouldn't pick a position of disadvantage, in order to conduct a lightsaber fight. Seriously. It is his choice to move the duel from equal ground to the podium. So if we follow your interpretation, he manouvered himself - willingly - into a position of disadvantage, by leaving the equal ground scenario. Do you think Sidious is an idiot, or can it be, that your interpretation is wrong, because you failed to consider the aforementioned points?
And if that is the case, what can we conclude from the fact, that even getting on a position of advantage, Sidious gets disarmed by Yoda in less than a minute of actual duelling? That he is inferior to the Jedi Master, when it comes lightsaber combat maybe?
And what I said is not conflicting with what we see from Sidious. We seen Sidious leap from a great distance and slaughter two master swordsman faster than they can react,
Given the instances of his force speed in use, that we can see in other sources, that little jump was entirely unnecessary.
we see Sidious giving ground and doing an acrobatic maneuvers in order to evade "Ferocious" assaults by Windu.
Yup. He does precisely one of those when fighting Windu. And a completely senseless one that is.
Hell, we see Sidious is more than able to perform acrobats during his battle with the Maul bros, and can seemingly us the force to propel himself both frontwards and backwards (seemingly gliding). These were things taken away from him in a confined platform.
These things were taken away from him by the movie choreography of his fighting. Using the fights from the "Clone Wars" as reference point, there is just as much taken aways from Yoda. In the Clone Wars, Yoda relies rather heavily on speedburst charges over groundlevel, surprising his opposition and also does most of his fighting on groundlevel. As you can see for yourself here:
A tactic, he refrains from in the movie interpretations of his lightsaber skills. Yet, even in the movie duel against Dooku, most of his "acrobatics" aren't elaborated jumps but circling movements close to groundlevel, as can be seen here:
So? You were saying?
Well you can imagine all you want, but you're still wrong. 😉
But of course. We shall rather follow the imagination of the guy who imagines he has giant a reach advantage when trying to aim at somebody of Yoda's hight (factually wrong). The guy who imagines, that a tactician like Sidious would choose a position of disadvantage to fight from (senseless). Such ideas must lead to correct conclusions. 🙄
On even ground, there would be a risk of being attacked by Yoda by a similar assault, but it can be responded to by giving ground or leaping away.
And how long can one respond in that fashion? Until reaching a wall? Or a window that could be shattered in order to create such an edge? We already know, how well Sidious performs under such circumstances against Yoda's inferior (Mace), don't we?
On the confined platform, there was no way for Sidious to respond to Yoda's ferocious assault other than almost losing his balance and nearly going over edge, due to his lack of space to maneuver in.
Yay. With his back against a wall, Sidious would react quite differently. I'm certain. Dropping some limbs instead of a lightsaber, maybe.
Oh, and as for your 2/3 estimation, did you do this quick estimation in your head? 😂
🙄
Average height of human male: 1.80 metres. Height of Yoda: 0.66 metres. Can you do the math yourself? In case, you can't - and that may very well be possible, given the reasoning stunts you're performing here: If two thirds of your target area are missing, you're logically left with one third to place hits on. Correct?
Nope, considering that the only offensive force move he used during the actual saber duel was on Maul when Maul came flying at him when he had his lightsabers deactivated after doing an unnecessary (rather show-offy) fancy flip kick on Savage. The force pull he used as he was falling only served the purpose to keep the fight going, but it didn't do anything decisive in winning the duel. The only other times he used the force offensively were before and after he had stomped them in pure sabers. Using a lot of offensive force moves during a duel would be what Dooku did during his fight with Ventress and Savage.
Emphasis mine. Do you even think while typing, or is your fanboyish attitude at the streeing wheel, once you hit the "quote" button?
Sidious initiates the confrontation by force slamming the brothers into the next wall, seemingly hard enough to cause structural damage. Then drops them. Does that cause physical pain that might lessen their readyness for combat? Maybe. Not that this would be important, considering the part of the duel that follows, where you keep missing the important point: Sidious is forced over the edge. So, apparently, in that little section of the duel, he isn't "stomping" anybody, but is forced into a position of disadvantage. Which he then negates pulling the duo down with him. Granted, they might have followed on their own, and probably that move didn't make much of a difference, yet, using it, Sidious took the initiative out of the brothers hand, leaving them no choice if to follow or not and no time to relax / organize tactics or a coordinated attack on their opponent now on lower ground. Leading to the next point:
Which force moves were decisive in the actual saber duel against the two? He ended the 2-on-1 by flip kicking Savage. Hopefully your not going to suggest that that show-offy flip kick was needed in order to force push Maul, especially considering that there was a time in that duel when Sidious paused for a moment, allowing them to think through their next move, which was plenty of time for Sidious to use the force on them. Again, Sidious was holding back his offensive force powers.
He did not end the 2-on-1 by flip kicking Savage. Savage was still near and, as seen, ready to continue the lightsaber fights moments later. The force push against Maul, that did remove him from the fight for a rather long amount of time, might have been decisive, because it enabled Sidious to focus on Savage alone, killing him. And given how the duo together was capable of forcing Sidious over the edge in the first place, Sidious seemingly wasn't in full control of the duel or at least not as much, as he would have liked. Of course, he could have owned them with the force rather easily (which is obvious from the fact that he does so at the beginning of that confrontation) – but utilizing his lightsaber skills only? So he turned it into a 1-on-1 and got rid of one of his opponents. And then? He duels Maul, yes, but finally he decides to force rape him as well – out of a saber lock.
This is where you ignore context. When Sidious was facing Maul and Savage, he was far more relaxed and not nearly as aggressive as Kenobi was.
Wow. The guy, who wants the reader to swallow the idea, that Jedi Kenobi utilized far more aggression in his lightsaber fight with the duo than Sith Lord Sidious, lectures me on "context"? Hilarity ensues. Sidious was far more aggressive than Kenobi, not just as hard pressed as the Jedi, granted. But why would he, given how he trained one of his opponents with the thought in mind, to be capable of disposing of him easily?
On top of that, Sidious wasn't even trying to kill Maul and didn't even take Savage seriously. Hell, judging from his entire demeanor throughout the entire saber duel, he didn't take either of them seriously and came off as toying around with them, and according to Filoni, Sidious was kicking butt while enjoying himself.
I also saw Sidious laughing manically when confronting Yoda. Is that the next step in your Sidious-Fanboy-Program? The declaration, that he also didn't take Yoda seriously and was just toying around with him while enyoing himself? 🙄
The fact, that the brothers managed to force Sidious over the edge, is testament that he wasn't handling them as casually, as you may like it. Of course, he didn't take the fight seriously – chosing to fight with sabers only – but once he went over the edge, he played it save, turning a 2-vs-1 into a 1-vs-1 and utilizing the Force to finish Maul off.
Not so much the same can be said about Kenobi's fight against the brothers. Also, as confirmed by Maul in "The Lawless" they weren't trying to kill Kenobi, they wanted to take him captive which explains why Maul demanded that Kenobi surrendered. This would also explain why Maul didn't just shove his saber through Obi Wan when he had Kenobi suspended in mid-air for some time. Kenobi's performance was a one off feat due to a number of circumstances--a feat he most likely would not be able to replicate, otherwise he wouldn't have had his ass handed to him by both brothers individually on other occasions.
It doesn't explain, why the duo does engage Kenobi in lightsaber combat anyway. Neither does it explain, why Kenobi was so certain, that he would be capable of taking on both of them, with Opress missing arm being a testament of Kenobi's ability to do so. Hell. Even Maul's declaration, that he is not a match for both of them, implies, that he could be able to take them out individually. And when did he got "his ass handed to him" by the brothers individually?
I also enjoy the idea, that context suddenly matters for fights. Why "suddenly", you ask? Simple as this: When I demanded to take context into consideration regarding the duel of Dooku and Anakin in RotS, that demand was met with ignorance by individuals such as yourself. Why? Because Dooku, who had to lose against Anakin, couldn't go all out against the Jedi and taunted him to utilize that Dark feelings, which finally led to Dooku's demise. And even here, I don't see anybody taking into consideration that the strike team coming to arrest Sidious was coming to arrest him. Killing the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic was not an option. It still wasn't an option for Mace, when he engaged Sidious in a lightsaber fight. So again, combatants in the need to hold back to a certain degree, without people considering this context. I wonder why. Not fitting your line of thought?
I don't feel like rehashing this argument again, but you may want to reconsider the fact that Lucas adding in certain details, like Sidious pretending to be weak and losing his powers in order to turn Anakin to the dark side, may have changed the entire context of the whole scene to what Lucas originally planned. Yes the audience did see Mace "overpower" Sidious, but that's not to say that Sidious didn't intend on being overpowered. Hell, even without watching the commentary, there are hints and clues that imply Sidious may have intended on losing this fight, such as his telepathic call, warning Anakin that his death would result in losing hope of saving Padme. Basically, it seems to me that Palpatine wanted Anakin to believe that his life was in danger so that Anakin would be forced to save him. Even after the duel, Windu only threatens to arrest Sidious, but Palpatine wasn't satisfied with this, as he wanted Anakin to believe that his life was in danger (hence the telepathic call), so Palpatine decides to attack Windu with lightning, forcing Windu to change his mind from wanting to arrest him to wanting to kill him._How can Sidious use all his powers to kill Windu while pretending to be weak at the same time in order to force Anakin to choose sides? Sounds contradicting to me. I mean, Palpatine only attacked with lightning for a few seconds before he started to feign weakness.
I'm certain you don't feel like rehashing this argument again, because nobody is eager to return to a field of battle that he left beaten and humiliated countless times before but – oh – there you go.
The context of the whole scene was not changed, just because you're incapable of grasping timeline of events within the scene. Let me just recount them for you:
[list=1]
[*]Mace disarms Sidious (RotS commentary "overpowers" him)
[*]Sidious yells, proclaiming he will now kill Mace and starts shooting his lightning
[*]Mace deflects the lightning back to Sidious whose face melts
[*]And now Sidious starts faking weakness, dropping his attack and proclaiming he can't go on.
[/list=1]
So let me just spell it out for you once more. We have three canon sources that suggest Mace did defeat Sidious in the lightsaber duel fair and square. Yet, somehow, certain individuals have issues with that idea. Why? I'm completely lost there, provided that there is nothing to allow to branch away from that interpretation. So: Mace > Sidious when it comes to lightsaber action.
And now, the comment from Lucas is (mis)used to construct an interpretation, where Sidious did fake his inability to defeat Mace Windu with his Force Lightning. While this is somewhat understandable from a fanboy point-of-view, it's completely idiotic, when one considers the following points: First, Lucas himself makes rather clear what Sidious faked and when he faked it. He faked weakness after the initial barrage of force lightning (which Lucas himself says was intended to kill Mace) fails. Second: The script pretty much shows us, what was added in the final version. In the script, Sidious keeps blasting Mace with lightning constantly, who even attempts to fight it after being disarmed by ultimately fails. So the "adding weakness" is obviously describing the part of the scene where Sidious stops shooting at Mace proclaiming that he hasn't the power to go on. Nothing else.
And then: How else could Sidious have "faked weakness" in that situation? Obviously, certain individuals here believe, that Sidious did somehow utilize a less powerful version of his lightning, in order to create a scene, in which Anakin had to involve himself, manipulating the young Jedi in that way. Yet this is illogical, because of two simple reasons:
1)
There was no need for Sidious to manipulate Anakin here. Skywalker had no choice but following Palpatine's will. The Sith Lord was, from Anakin's view, the only hope for saving Padme. He would have done anything to keep that hope alive. Seriously: What could Anakin have done, if Sidious killed Mace with a lightsaber or blasted the Jedi Master out of the window or into dust? He wasn't able to challenge Sidious on his own and he always could have been blackmailed into doing the bidding of the Sith Lord. And not helping Windu would have had the same effect as helping Sidious in that situation. So this would have been a pretty pointless act of manipulation.
2)
More importantly: How, pray tell, do you people think, Sidious could possibly be able to summon lightning exactly in the needed strength? One needs to consider, that Sidious was completely unaware of Mace's actual force powers, having never seen them in action. So he couldn't have known how strong – at maximum – his lightning could have been, not to overpower Mace's defense. On the other handside, he wouldn't have fooled anybody, if Mace had just casually deflected the lightning back at the Sith Lord. Picking a strength of lightning in between those two parameters would have been completely impossible for Sidious. Hence its far more logical that he blasted Windu with everything he got and just failed to overwhelm the Jedi Masters defense.
And, honestly, I don't see why you people have a problem with that. Windu has his lightsaber in hand in order to do the job. If Obi-Wan Kenobi can – rather easily – catch Dooku's lightning with that weapon in hand, despite the fact that Dooku is by far his superior in terms of force abilities, why do you have a problem with Windu doing pretty much the same with Sidious lightning, while struggeling to do so? Mace wasn't deflecting that stuff while sipping a Martini with the other hand – he was hard pressed doing it, even when having his weapon in hand to aid his effort to do so.
So your personal interpretation of the fight, makes no sense on several levels. In addition: The "telepathic call" is never labeled as such. It could be visions delivered by the Force itself. Anakin was the chosen one destined to bring balance to the force, and what we hear from Padme is an accurate depiction of what later happens on screen. Do you honestly think Sidious' prediction was that accurate? So perfect that he had an exact vision of the future that he could use to manipulate Anakin? If yes, than one must wonder why he didn't anticipate the results of his duel with Yoda or Anakin's trip to Mustafar (or a shitload of other things happening in the source material). This alone pretty much rules out the idea, that what Anakin heared was a "telepathic call" from Sidious. Not to mention the fact that Sidious was not in any danger yet and, given the way he confronted the Jedi Team, didn't anticipate much trouble with them. Otherwise, he would probably have dealt with them using the Force.
For the idea of Sidious throwing the lightsaber fight: It's completely senseless. And not just, because every single source confirms he lost it fair and square. If he wanted to throw the fight, he could have done that by simply surrendering his weapon. But it was kicked out of his hand by Windu, a move, that Sidious couldn't have anticipated. Even more problematic: Losing his weapon, Sidious was basically at Windu's mercy. The Jedi could simple have stabbed him and be done with it. After all, Sidious had just murdered three of Windu's fellow Jedi Masters. So according to your version, he first lays his hands in the hands of Mace. And right after that, he goes through some elaborated sheme, in order to bring Windu into "Chancellor kill mode". Again: What if Windu had just reinforced his prior assessment of the situation and asked Anakin to help arrest Sidious? Plan failed. Stupid move.
Why? Because Sidious had all the aces up his sleeve already. As I've already said: Anakin was at his mercy, because Anakin needed him. He could have demanded anything, and Anakin – for the sake of Padme – would have done it. And do you spot the logical discrepancy here? If Sidious would have been able to kill Mace, he could have done it before Anakin came. Just another dead Jedi in his office, as if three weren't enough testament to Sidious being a dangerous individual. He could even have electrocuted Mace just in front of Anakin (with his proclaimation before the first lightning barriage revealing his intent to Anakin anyway), had he been capable of doing so. But he isn't, and that is the point: He needs Anakin on his side, in order to rid himself of Mace, whom he couldn't overcome on his own. Hence the entire manipulation. That was a desperate gamble on Sidious' part and one he could have lost rather easily. Mace could have given in to Anakin's demand to simple arrest Sidious – Game Over. Anakin could have refused to act (albeit a less likely scenario) and – Game Over.
Oh, and as for Windu mistaken Anakin's fear for Sidious', that's not contradicted by the film. Anakin doesn't need to be in the same room for Windu to be able to sense his fear.
The point was, that this entire description of Windu's use of the Shatterpoint ability doesn't make any sense. He senses fear and tries to capitalize on it [in a way that contradicts the movie, by the way]. And, here is the issue: It works. Consider how illogical that is. So Windu does sense the fear of Anakin, and the fear of Anakin leads to slower motion of Sidious, which Windu then capitalizes on? And, somehow, without said fear, Sidious would have maintained his former speed on the slippery, wet ground of the balcony, because of – huh? You see, the event of sensing the fear, apparently has zero effect on defeating Sidious. Windu sents him out to wet ground where – fear or not – Sidious couldn't have moved as fast as he did inside, because of the higher (physical and metaphysical) demands of the ground he was fighting on. So that is a tactical clever move by Mace, and I can see his Shatterpoint ability revealing that option to him. But what does that have to do with Anakin's fear? It makes absolutely no sense.
Wow, I missed this comment right here. The fact that you ignore a canon source just because it doesn't fit with your "interpretation" of Sidious feats, shows way more than an extreme bias against the character.
Urm. The fact that I made a comment regarding that source and formulated a rather lengthy argument regarding its content, actually contradicts your idea that I was "ignoring" it. And since you even quoted my aforementioned comment, I can just assume that you are as dense as a brick wall.
Even more so, if we consider, that I brought up the issue of literalism rather often – even here – much like the issue of simply adopting anything being said in the sourcematerial without second thought, we have just more evidence, that I don't just "ignore" sources. I see taking them literal as problematic.
In case you don't grasp the problem, let me point you to the following: Is Darth Maul "one of the best trained Sith apprentices in history"(TPM Visiual Dictionary) or "[...]not an apprentice; not someone who could ever aspire to become a true Sith Lord" (Darth Plagueis)? And while the last statement might be a lie, Sidious reinforced that opinion calling Maul "nothing but a tool" (The Essential Guide through the Force, p.169). Those two latter statements completely contradicting the former – so do I simply pick the one that suits my argument better, or is some interpretation necessary here, reaching a possible synthesis? Apparently, it is the former for you and the latter for me. Double-standards much?
And my interpretation of Sidious feats? I'm just asking questions and providing alternative interpretations to the ones you seem to view as god given fact. I'm sorry, that you can't stomach a little attack on your convinctions, your certainty regarding such issues. No surprise, though. If the one thing you're good at, is being certain, having that taken away from you must hurt. And those quotes regarding Maul are one such event, where one shouldn't be so certain regarding Maul's abilities. And following from there, one might question, what is so impressive about Sidious defeating a person he specifically picked and trained to be able to dispose of him? And once one comes to the conclusion that, taking this into consideration, that display of lightsaber ability from Sidious might be a little bit less impressive than one was thinking, one could, maybe, reach a point where Sidious could be put down from a pedestal he doesn't belong to, to a more realistic level of lightsaber skills.
Or do you seriously no nothing about how fighting works? Sidious having mastery over every form, knowing their sequences and "patterns" enough to teach them to others, is basically what technical skill is, which, as you are seemingly suggesting, isn't the the end all be all in dueling, but just one advantage, in which case I agree. In the context of a duel, however, being able to utilize his level of mastery with such force enhanced strength, speed and precision, would, as I said, make him a saber beast by default. Please explain how that isn't utilizing it in a masterful application in a context of a duel._
Oh. I know how fighting works. Pray tell: Do you? I can read a book regarding Kung Fu, teaching me the different styles, all movements and patterns and, after such lecture, I could teach those to others. Does that turn me into a master of every Kung Fu style? Hardly. Why? Because true mastery can only be archived by a combination of training (like repeating "patterns"😉, practice (training fights) and – in case of lightsaber forms - actual combat experience.
Now, tell me: Where did Sidious get enough of any of the three, to equip him with the technical finesse you want to grant him? He had a master, whose take on the issue was, that that lightsaber duels "were tedious affairs, full of wasted emotion and needless acrobatics" (Darth Plagueis). And, indeed, what do we see of Sidous in terms of lightsaber training? Plagueis puts him up against droids, lecturing him on identifying range weapons and deflecting blaster bolts. The next instance of combat training is fighting some primitive barbarians on a backwater planet.
Of course, we could speculate that Sidious went through sparing matches, first with his master, and later with Maul as his apprentice. Though we don't know and, by the laws certain individuals have established in this forum, that means we don't utilize speculation. Thus limiting Sidious experience with the weapon to a few matches against drones and barbarians, and him killing non-force-users with a grant total of zero actual lightsaber duels prior to Revenge of the Sith.
There is no record of him focusing on mastering whatever lightsaber style of his choice to an extend that Obi-Wan mastered Soresu, Anakin mastered Djem So (via Dooku's words) or even Maul mastering Juyo (or Niman or whatever). Neither did he strive for applicable multi-form mastery like Kas'im did, or tailored a unique style like Mace Windu – or a unique weapon like Exar Kun. So there is a rather long list of beings putting more time, focus and effort in the art of mastering the lightsaber, specifically for duelling situations, than Sidious did. What we have going for Sidious is one single blanket statement.
And, now. What does his "mastery of all forms" suggest? That he is familiar with the different forms? Most certainly. That he is a "master" of them as Mace is a master of Vaapad? Certainly not. If we now apply context here, searching for other supposed "masters of all forms", then the individuals known as such (e.g. Anoon Bondara, Cin Drallig) weren't the primary powerhouses in lightsaber combat, exactly, were they? Why? Because their knowledge was broad and not necessarily deep and probably not applicable in real combat as it was. And at this point, were basically reaching a point that – of all beings around here – Gideon pointed out:
"Sidious is a master of all lightsaber forms. Trying to pinpoint his exact level of skill next to another character's is probably a futile enterprise without direct narration on the subject."
Exactly.
The only correct answer to the question, whether Sidious is more or less skilled than characters he didn't fight is "We don't know." And from there, as I had already said, the list of characters that might be capable of defeating Sidious in a lightsaber fight could be longer than certain individuals here imagine.
Basically, you come to your conclusion that Sidious is not that great with a saber based on his performances against perhaps two of the greatest duelists in the mythos, while choosing to ignore the circumstances of how those two opponents managed to disarm him.
Oh really. Now let's have a look at that "circumstances" according to Sidious 66.
In Yoda's case, he disarmed Sidious because Sidious didn't have room to give ground or leap away from Yoda's assault, causing Sidious to almost go over the edge of the platform, which is how Sidious lost his saber.
Oh. How nice. Care to explain why Sidious needed to "give ground or leap away" from aforementioned assault in the first case, instead of, I don't know, parrying it? Could it be, that he couldn't parry it, because he is not quite as good with a lightsaber as Yoda? Did you take that "circumstance" into consideration? Apparently not.
In Mace's case, it is heavily implied in the movie and George Lucas that Sidious may have never intended on being on the winning end of this particular battle, otherwise him and Sidious were fighting at an impasse until Anakin arrived in the room;
No. It's not "heavily implied" that Sidious didn't intend to win the fight. The movie, the commentary and the novel agree that Mace beats Sidious in the lightsaber duel and no matter how much of your bullshit you try to pile on top of that scene will change that. End of story.
in fact Sidious was initially overwhelming Windu, despite the latter having help.
Huh? There is one meeting of blades between Sidious and Windu, before the Jedi Masters, that did accompany Mace, are dead on the ground, so one has to wonder, what the hell you are talking about. Is it the fact that Mace did give ground through the corridor to the greater room of the office? Well. According to your very own comments regarding Sidious and him giving ground, I can just assume, that such manouvers aren't signs of inferiority for you, but just tactical moves.
But if we go by your interpretation that Windu legitimately beat Sidious in a saber duel, it was because Sidious slowed himself down because of fear of falling out the window (fear that was never there, BTW), not because Windu was so far ahead of him in skill.
And how, pray tell, did Sidious end up in a position where he needed to slow himself down out of fear to fall out of the window? Did Mace manouver him into that position, utilizing his superior lightsaber abilities? 😉
In the movies, Windu ended the duel via a kick, kinda like how Sidious ended his 2-on-1 fight with Maul and Savage, by flooring Savage with a kick, yet you don't seem to credit Sidious's kick to skill? But you do Windu. Or is it just that any time Sidious gets disarmed by his opponents, you just want to assume that it's because of lack of skill on Sidious' part? I mean, I can basically make the same case with Dooku; he must really suck considering he was floored and disarmed by Savage within a couple of blows. I bet you don't ignore the circumstance when it comes to that duel.
Ah. It's strawman-time again.
Have I ever attributed Mace's kick to his skill with a lightsaber? Would be rather nonsensical. That was, apparently, him exploiting a weakness in his opponents defense in an unconventional way. Much like Anakin did with Dooku when cutting off his hands. Much like Sidious did with Savage. All rather unconventional manouvers for swordfighters, aren't they?
And yet, the mere fact, that such disarmings take place, are testament to inferiority of the disarmed. Dooku, apparently, was next to nothing compared to Anakin in "zone mode", which is precisely, what the novel tells us about this last moments of their duel. Savage is likewise nothing, when compared to Sidious. Hell. He constantly tells Maul, that he is the better of the two brothers, and Maul is just a "tool" in the eyes of Sidious. And Sidious himself? Obviously, he can't stand against the combination of Vaapad and the Shatterpoint ability of Mace or the combination of lightsaber prowess and force powers of Yoda. So what?
Anakin in his "zone mode" does simple outclass Dooku. And Sidious does outclass Savage. And I really don't get, why people can't admit that Sidious is outclassed by Mace and Yoda alike. It's not like that would cast him down the ranks of lightsaber duellists to the bottom of the scale. It just means that he isn't invincible if he has to rely on his saber skills alone.
Like who? Dooku? lmao
Ah. There it is again. Blind certainty while facing the virtually unknown.
I really wonder what makes you so certain, that Dooku couldn't overwhelm Sidious in a lightsaber fight. Dooku is, after all, a master of the "ultimate refinement of lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat" (The Essential Guide through the Force), having worked decades to perfect his style, with the only two beings in the Jedi Order who did rival him in that area were Yoda and Mace. Ironically, those very two, that did manage to disarm Sidious in their lightsaber fights against him. While I see that Dooku, much like Sidious himself, isn't on par with Yoda in that department – what about Mace? Pretty much every available source list Dooku and Mace as equals, with Yoda – seemingly – thinking that Dooku is the more dangerous of the two. So with all due respect, the answer to the question whether Dooku could take Sidious in such a fight, shouldn't be "LOLOLOL! Sidious ROXXORS Dooku!" but "I don't know. It could possible go either way. But I think Sidious would win for [enter reasons here]."
And I wasn't even thinking about Dooku, when making my statement. More about individuals such as Exar Kun, Ulic Qel-Droma, Revan, Kas'im, Bane, Tulak Hord, [add favorite swordbeing of your choice here].
Dooku himself? There are more than enough reasons to speculate that he would be capable of taking Sidious out in a lightsaber fight. Do you have proof that he can not? No? Well. Not even your favorite Sith was certain that he could stand against Dooku in such a confrontation, which is pretty clear from "Darth Plagueis":
"Palpatine restrained an impulse to reveal his true identity. Dooku was strong in the Force, and might simply be attempting to draw him out." (Darth Plagueis, Epilogue)
If Sidious suspected that Dooku was attempting to confront him (i.e. the last Sith Lord) and was reluctant to reveal himself, one must think, that Sidious himself wasn't certain whether or not he could take Dooku in such a confrontation. So I wonder, how you can possess a greater certainty on the issue, than one of the beings involved?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He doesn't believe that Vapaad negated Sidious's power advantage in the metaphysical sense. [/B]
It's not a matter of me not beliving it. It's a matter of it not happening.
I don't get why people here still keep thinking, that Vaapad generates a connection between Mace and Sidious or is super-special when confronting a Dark Side opponent. It does nothing of that sort. Aside from the passage in the RotS novel, Mace himself explained it again:
"To use Vaapad, a Jedi must give himself over to the thrill of battle, enjoying the fight and the satisfaction of winning. A Jedi must also accept and embrace the fury of his opponent. This transforms a Jedi into half of a superconducting loop, the other half being the power of darkness, which passes in and out of the Jedi without touching him." – Mace Windu, The Essential Guide through the Force, p.113
This is an universal statement from Windu regarding Vaapad. Meaning, this is how the style always works. Not just against Dark Siders, not just against Sidious. It's the "inner darkness" of the Vaapad user that is the "other half" of that "superconducting loop", and not some dark power from an opponent / another outside source.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm not sure why it would be non-canon. It came from an issue of Star Wars Insider. (Issue 62, I believe?)
And since when is everything released in the Star Wars Insider canon material? The magazine regularly features deleted scenes / alternative scenes / what-if-scenarios / speculative texts and, hence, can't be utilized as "canon source".
In this special case, the article was released in 2002, while apparently nobody involved with the movies (aka G-Canon) did give a damn about it, even during the post-production of "Revenge of the Sith" occuring 2-3 years later. And, in fact, pretty much everything else released denies that Maul / Sidious were even aware of "Form VII". In "Shatterpoint", Sidious appears to be oblivious to Form VII, mentioning there are just six forms of lightsaber combat, with Yoda calling Vaapad the seventh. Likewise, we have the quote from "Darth Plagueis" labeling Maul a Niman-practicioner. So, unless you have anything to establish that Maul practiced Juyo – and the same goes for Sidious -, I'll take two C-Canon novels (the one pretty new) over the dubious and seemingly ignored Fight Saber article.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Nai, do you believe Kenobi to be more skilled as a Saber duelist than Maul? If so do you see the difference as a significant one? Would seem a bit strange seen as Maul was a Juyo practitioner, and seemingly completely mastered the form.
For Maul being a Juyo practicioner: See above.
And the other question is rather hard to answer, since the depictions of Kenobi in relation to Maul somewhat changes through the course of the Clone Wars series. Kenobi's defense is obviously peerless, given his mastery of Soresu and his rather deep connection to the Force. He is very good when it comes to utilizing his enviroment to gain advantages on opponents. Yet, he lacks offensive abilities, and force defense. Two things, that Maul could exploit, given his capability to use the Force in offensive ways and a rather offensive (and surprising) way of fighting.
In a duel between those two, I would bet on Kenobi, though. Resourcefulness coupled with nigh impenetrable defense might do the job. If you want to talk about "technical skill" alone, Maul is probably a better trained combatant (additional martial arts skills / accrobatics, dirty tricks), with Kenobi being a close second, while both may have rather equal abilities, when it comes down to mastery of the blade.
I find it hard to judge Maul in the Clone Wars, especially compared to his "former self" though. Going by the fact that he had problems lifting his own lightsaber, after having his legs installed at the end of the fourth season, one might think that he lost some of his ability to control the force. And, of course, his artificial legs / different lightsaber would also influence his actual skill with a saber.