The Greatest Foe the darkness had ever known...

Nai
And since when is everything released in the Star Wars Insider canon material? The magazine regularly features deleted scenes / alternative scenes / what-if-scenarios / speculative texts and, hence, can't be utilized as "canon source".

Given that Fight Saber doesn't qualify as any of the above, why would it be non-canon?

Nai
In this special case, the article was released in 2002, while apparently nobody involved with the movies (aka G-Canon) did give a damn about it, even during the post-production of "Revenge of the Sith" occuring 2-3 years later. And, in fact, pretty much everything else released denies that Maul / Sidious were even aware of "Form VII".

If we determined canon by what people involved with the movies gave a damn about, Wookieepedia would be a hell of a lot smaller.

Nai
In "Shatterpoint", Sidious appears to be oblivious to Form VII, mentioning there are just six forms of lightsaber combat, with Yoda calling Vaapad the seventh.

He could have very well been feigning ignorance given that Vaapad's existence was not a well-known factoid at the time.

Nai
Likewise, we have the quote from "Darth Plagueis" labeling Maul a Niman-practicioner.

That Plagueis observes Maul practicing Niman does not preclude him from being a master of Juyo, which requires its users to be "high end masters of multiple forms."

Nai
So, unless you have anything to establish that Maul practiced Juyo – and the same goes for Sidious -, I'll take two C-Canon novels (the one pretty new) over the dubious and seemingly ignored Fight Saber article.

2009's Star Wars Insider #109 also declares him a master of "multiple disciplines" and includes Juyo. And I've already given you the excerpt from the recently released Clone Wars Episode Guide confirming Sidious's mastery.

@Nai

I've never seen so much reaching in a single response, but trust me I will get to it sometime.

Seriously tho, why don't you just admit that you have an extreme bias against the character (Sidious). I mean, at least you wouldn't look as silly as you do by trying to deny it.

I may or may not get to the Mace "overpowering" Sidious bit since it doesn't really hurt my argument.

On the subject of the Sidious vs Maul/Savage fight, wasn't there a quote that says that Sidious always held the advantage and something like that he was never really pressed?

I believe it was on the Star Wars website......

I've never seen so much reaching in a single response, but trust me I will get to it sometime.

Originally posted by Nephthys
On the subject of the Sidious vs Maul/Savage fight, wasn't there a quote that says that Sidious always held the advantage and something like that he was never really pressed?

The website says he "never wavered" from his position of "superiority." Then you have Dave Filoni fawning over how the entire scene was a demonstration of Sidious's mastery and how he was "kicking butt."

I didn't read the whole thing (holy shit WOT), but I don't think Nai is contending that Sidious wasn't kicking their asses.

Thanks, found it:

"Meanwhile, Sidious duels the Sith brothers, never wavering from his position of superiority."

Nai was saying they forced Sidious off the ledge. I think thats a bit strong when as the above said he was always in the strong position and that never wavered.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nai was saying they forced Sidious off the ledge. I think thats a bit strong when as the above said he was always in the strong position and that never wavered.

...Ah.

Well I mean, technically yes, they did force Sidious off the ledge. I mean, he didn't willingly go over the edge or anything.

But I don't think he particularly gave a shit and it didn't give them even a momentary advantage. I think the website's quote and Filoni's commentary still holds up.

In the IGN interview of the Lawless, Filoni says that Sidious holds the advantage throughout the fight, and he's enjoying himself while he does it.

He also said that when the Emperor walks into the room, someone's not walking out. Because "That just doesn't happen".

And last but not least, Filoni tells us that it's 'always cool' to have the main "bad guy" of the series walk in and wipe the floor with the other bad guys, and the audience realizes: "Oh yeah, that's why he's the Sith Lord."

Yeah, Savage did knock Sidious off the balcony, but Sidious really didn't have no where else to go in that position. I wouldn't say it was because they were pressing Sidious or anything.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Given that Fight Saber doesn't qualify as any of the above, why would it be non-canon?

Why would it be canon, Gideon?
The Star Wars Insider is a Fan Magazine. The Fight Saber article is a fan-creation by David West Reynolds, who - being an archeologist - has once stated, that he approaches Star Wars as he would approach other cultures from different times, which, usually, features a lot of speculation and interpretation of facts. Which, in turn, hardly qualfies as generating facts. Taking that into consideration, one is pretty much forced to stick to publications making use of the article, rather than the article itself.

If we determined canon by what people involved with the movies gave a damn about, Wookieepedia would be a hell of a lot smaller.

And if we would count every fan creation as "canon", it would be a hell of a lot bigger.

He could have very well been feigning ignorance given that Vaapad's existence was not a well-known factoid at the time.

Why would he feign ignorance regarding Juyo?

That Plagueis observes Maul practicing Niman does not preclude him from being a master of Juyo, which requires its users to be "high end masters of multiple forms."

That is correct. However: Why would Maul utilize Niman when fighting with his double-bladed saber, which was, what Plagueis observed? There isn't much reason not to stick to his primary style, is there?

2009's Star Wars Insider #109 also declares him a master of "multiple disciplines" and includes Juyo.

And in what context, Gideon? The "Count Dooku vs. Darth Maul" piece, concluding that Dooku wins? 😉

And I've already given you the excerpt from the recently released Clone Wars Episode Guide confirming Sidious's mastery.

And I've given a rather lengthy argument on the term "mastery" in regards to lightsaber combat and its use in the SW source material, concluding that such claims to (lightsaber) fame are virtually pointless in determining the actual skill-level of an opponent.

@Sidious 66

I've never seen so much reaching in a single response, but trust me I will get to it sometime.

Thanks for the confirmation, that you don't read your own posts before hitting the reply button. Oh, the irony.

Seriously tho, why don't you just admit that you have an extreme bias against the character (Sidious). I mean, at least you wouldn't look as silly as you do by trying to deny it.

If I had an extreme bias against Sidious, I wouldn't bother with dicussing anything related to him but simple ignore his existance. If I had an extreme bias against Sidious, I wouldn't spend money on material primarily dealing with him (e.g. "Darth Plagueis"😉 and - most likely - wouldn't care much about Star Wars as a whole.

Seriously tho, why don't you just admit your rabid fanboyism regarding Sidious. I mean, at least you wouldn't look as silly as you do by trying to deny it, while running around here with his name attached to your account in capital letters? Really. You can't even think straight when it comes to Sidious and couldn't accept something deviating from your own convictions regarding the characters if it would kick you in the nuts. That your pea-sized brain is incapable of processing any critique regarding Sidious as anything but "hate" already reveals your level of blind, fanatic stupidity. So, by all means, go ahead and amuse me.

I may or may not get to the Mace "overpowering" Sidious bit since it doesn't really hurt my argument.

I accept your concession, bro. No problemo.

Yeah, Savage did knock Sidious off the balcony, but Sidious really didn't have no where else to go in that position. I wouldn't say it was because they were pressing Sidious or anything.

Yeah, Sidious decided to get kicked from the balcony, because that certainly sounds like a lot of fun. And before that, he wasn't giving ground, but cleverly manouvering himself into the needed position, to enjoy a nice flying boot to the face. Who wouldn't?

I wonder, why this bit is even in there, if their intention was to demonstrate clearly, that Sidious is just "kicking butt" at that duel. Why not have Maul and Savage being forced backwards by Sidious, who then pushes them from the balcony to jump after them and slaughter them on the lower level?

Well there were definitely scenes of "butt-kicking." But I don't think Filoni ever said or meant that Sidious was "kicking-butt" throughout the entire fight.

Originally posted by Nai
Oh, yes. Actually, we have a very good example for what happenes, when attempting to avoiding such attacks:

"YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber[...]" (Revenge of the Sith script)

Now that's a really good way to win lightsaber fights.
Of course, that was a little bit polemic. Yet, you may want to consider, what constant leaping or giving ground would mean for a lightsaber duel. And what happens, if there is no space left for such manouvers? Not a great argument for your position, was it?

WTF? lol

I guess Sidious would have to keep fighting until there is no more room left, huh? I mean, if he can last as long as he did in such a confined space without any room whatsoever to give ground or leap away, then it stands to reason that he'd just last longer on even ground, having far more room to give ground and avoid any "ferocious assaults."

Now, I'm not arguing Sidious can last forever on even ground or that he'd even win. I think you're so desperate to win a debate that you're not even understanding what's being argued here. Or maybe you're the one who is having trouble in comprehending.

Originally posted by Nai
We see him deflecting more than 40 blaster bolts from eight different ankles on screen in less than five seconds (Revenge of the Sith) and he has been shown to be capable of avoiding three Jedi Masters hacking away at him, without even igniting his lightsaber (Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter). So: Good luck with the counter-attack, which would be rather hard to employ, because you have forgotten a nice little detail here:

That's great. We've seen Sidious slaughter two jedi master before they were able to react--before Mace and Fisto were able to do anything to Sidious despite the fact that Sidious was saber length away from them.

I'm not arguing that Yoda can't deflect or evade Sidious' saber attacks. I'm saying that a lower attack from Yoda can be responded to by Sidious such as leaping away or giving ground, and that Yoda can leave a potential opening if he goes straight for a lower body attack.

Originally posted by Nai
But yes, of course. This comparison definitely makes sense. Because your nephew is just as fast and strong as yourself and can, literally, run circles around you. Correct? And, of course, he is just 0.66 metres high (for those unfamiliar with the metric system: about 2 feet and 2 inches). I find the notion of yourself fighting superhuman babies rather amusing, but I guess, that wasn't what you wanted to tell us, right?

Admittedly, it wasn't the best example to bring my nephew up, but I figured you'd get the reach disadvantage.

No, my nephew is not as fast as I am, nor is he as strong. But I also don't utilize full speed when he comes charging (running) at me, all I do is take a couple of casual steps back and place my arm out. As you are suggesting, both Yoda and Sidious are comparable in both speed and strength, so it wouldn't be a good tactic for Yoda to run straight forward trying to land a shot on Sidious' legs, as Yoda has far less reach than Sidious, which means the chances of Sidious landing a blow before Yoda reaches him are higher. This would explain why Yoda utilizes a bunch of acrobats (never staying on the ground or in one spot for long)--to confuse his opponents so to land a strike when his opponents leaves himself open. This is basically what Yoda was doing to Sidious on the confined platform, doing circles around Sidious, never staying in one spot.

Originally posted by Nai
First: Yoda, even when on the side of the podium, is not on a "higher part" relative to Sidious himself, meaning the "leverage" you suppose for Yoda here does not exists, because he is still fighting "upwards" when compared to Sidious.

I didn't mean to suggest that standing on the higher part of the podium completely took away Yoda's disadvantage of reach and height, but it did help. Yoda was able to utilize his strength in their saber locks much better, as he was able to press down on Sidious blade, which is something he seemed to be having trouble doing on even ground.

Originally posted by Nai
Second: You do realize that the first saberlock between Yoda and Sidious happens on equal ground and Yoda still overpowers Sidious, right? Apparently not. So we have factual evidence that Yoda can do it on equal ground just as easy as from your supposed "higher ground".

Nope, you might want to watch that first saber lock again. Yoda actually had more trouble then. All you need to do is look at Yoda's expression when he was trying to keep Sidious from overpowering him in the saber lock, while Sidious was laughing/taunting. Wonder why Yoda wasn't struggling as much when saberlocking Sidious on the higher part of the podium like he was on even ground, or why Sidious wasn't laughing?

Originally posted by Nai
Third: I really don't get, how you draw conclusions regarding (physical) strength of Dooku / Sidious from their clashes with Savage. Using his brute force based power swipes, Savage is capable of flooring Dooku, yes. Where does he utilize those against Sidious exactly. Perhabs in one single situation, where he sends Sidious flying over the edge. So? Where do you conclude from there, that Sidious is physically more powerful than Dooku (even considering force aided strength here)?

Reaching.

Savage sent Sidious flying over the edge because he came running and directly hit Sidious head on. He didn't send Sidious flying from saber clashing with him. I know you're not actually comparing the result of a direct physical attack to a saber clash, now are you?

You should watch the beginning of Sidious' saber duel with the brothers. Savage starts out by jumping at Sidious, bringing his full weight and strength down on Sidious blade, and Sidious still manages to press Savage back using only one hand while pressing Maul back in the opposite direction with his other hand. But yeah, a power swipe from Savage would have disarmed and floored Sidious the way it did Dooku. 🙄

Originally posted by Nai
And when he went down to the equal ground, Sidious was forced to drop his weapon. You want irony? There you go. Oh, stop. I can even top that level of irony, by pointing to the fight between Sidious and Dooku/Opress. There, Sidious is forced over an edge, but apparently doesn't bother with dropping one of his two lightsabers. I wonder, why he didn't utilize the same tactic against Yoda. Maybe because he either realized, that the Jedi would resist such a force pull? Or, and I find this quite more reasonable, because he knew he couldn't take Yoda in a lightsaber duel?

Both of your answers are correct. Yes, Yoda could have likely resisted a force pull. And yes, Sidious probably knew that he couldn't take Yoda in a saber duel, ESPECIALLY in such a confined space, so he abandoned his saber in favor of his force powers.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Yoda (ROTS) runs a gauntlet! with full rests in btwn, how far does he get? Setting is on an open, flat terrain.

1. Darth Bane (DoE)
2. Darth Plagueis
3. Lord Vitiate
4. The Hero of Tython
5. (rematch): RotS Sidious
Boss: RotJ Sidious

Of this list, the only one Yoda can definitely win against is Palpatations. Everyone else has a strong chance of beating him into green paste.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Of this list, the only one Yoda can definitely win against is Palpatations. Everyone else has a strong chance of beating him into green paste.

👇

Bane/Plagueis<Sidious

Nope. Denied. Bane and Plagueis aren't canonically known for being ragdolled via TK, dropping their lightsabers like Michael J. Fox in a juggling competition, and display more badass forms of Sith sorcery, etc. About the only form of Sids I'm willing to grant would WTFpwn Yoda is DE Sids.

Originally posted by Nai
Apparently, I was thinking, that Sidious wouldn't pick a position of disadvantage, in order to conduct a lightsaber fight. Seriously. It is his choice to

move the duel from equal ground to the podium. So if we follow your interpretation, he manouvered himself - willingly - into a position of disadvantage, by leaving the

equal ground scenario. Do you think Sidious is an idiot, or can it be, that your interpretation is wrong, because you failed to consider the aforementioned points?

Perhaps Sidious chose such a position because he wanted to take the fight to a spot where he could put his force powers to better use, which is exactly what happened.

😱 OMG! Really, that's what happened. Did you watch the movie?

It probably wasn't the safest route for Sidious to choose, but it did work in the end. I'd say it wasn't as stupid as him allowing Yoda to get back on his feet when he

had Yoda knocked unconscious.

Originally posted by Nai
And if that is the case, what can we conclude from the fact, that even getting on a position of advantage, Sidious gets disarmed by Yoda in less than a minute of

actual duelling? That he is inferior to the Jedi Master, when it comes lightsaber combat maybe?

I've admitted that Yoda is the more skilled saber duelist.

But let's stick to the facts on what happened. Yoda's ferocious assault caused Sidious to nearly go over the edge of the podium, which resulted in, as you suggested, Sidious purposely dropping his saber in order to retaliate with a force attack. Now, are you suggesting that this same exact sequence would happen on even ground?

You're suggesting that if Yoda attacks Sidious with a "ferocious attack" on even ground that Sidious wouldn't give ground or leap away, but would instead purposely drop his saber and use a force attack? Well if this is just something Sidious did because he knew he couldn't beat Yoda in a saber duel, then I wonder why he waited until he almost fell over the edge of the podium before doing it?

Originally posted by Nai
Given the instances of his force speed in use, that we can see in other sources, that little jump was entirely unnecessary.

You're missing the point. Regardless of whether the jump was necessary or not, the point is Sidious has room to jump distances on even ground, which is something he can't do on a confined platform.

Originally posted by Nai
Yup. He does precisely one of those when fighting Windu. And a completely senseless one that is.

Not seeing how it was senseless, but I see you're still missing the point.

Originally posted by Nai
These things were taken away from him by the movie choreography of his fighting. Using the fights from the "Clone Wars" as reference point, there is just as much

taken aways from Yoda. In the Clone Wars, Yoda relies rather heavily on speedburst charges over groundlevel, surprising his opposition and also does most of his

fighting on groundlevel. As you can see for yourself here:

Just admit, you're trying too hard.

Yoda can block blasters and move his body faster than droids. So now let's compare droids to Sidious to make you right.

Originally posted by Nai
A tactic, he refrains from in the movie interpretations of his lightsaber skills. Yet, even in the movie duel against Dooku, most of his "acrobatics" aren't

elaborated jumps but circling movements close to groundlevel, as can be seen here:

YouTube video

So? You were saying?

That you should just stop now. 😂

Or do you really want to keep going?

Originally posted by Nai
And how long can one respond in that fashion? Until reaching a wall?

If they reach a wall, what? Will Sidious then decide to drop his saber? Or is Yoda going to cut him up as soon as they reach the wall. I mean, Sidious can defend himself on a confined platform for about a minute, but he can't do so when they reach a wall, even though Yoda would have no where to do circles around Sidious, unless he can go through walls.

Originally posted by Nai
Or a window that could be shattered in order to create such an edge? We already know, how well Sidious performs under such circumstances against Yoda's inferior

(Mace), don't we?

Oh right. Yoda will lead Sidious to a window and then shatter it, causing Sidious to slow down his speed for a second, and then land a kick to Sidious face the same way Mace did (yes Yoda has long legs like Windu to pull off this feat in a similar fashion). Yup this is something that would have happened had they not took their fight on the podium. Yoda would either find a window to exploit, or Sidious would run into a wall in less than a minute.

Originally posted by Nai
Yay. With his back against a wall, Sidious would react quite differently. I'm certain. Dropping some limbs instead of a lightsaber, maybe.

Yes Sidious is completely defenseless with his back to a wall. There is no way to get out of that position, you know, like side stepping and then moving away from the wall. Nope, a wall will surround him completely, giving him no other area to move to. But then again, you suggested that lack of room to give ground wasn't a disadvantage to Sidious on a confined platform, so how do you assume a wall would be a disadvantage for him?

And you say I'm the one who needs to think before typing.

Originally posted by Nai
Sidious initiates the confrontation by force slamming the brothers into the next wall, seemingly hard enough to cause structural damage. Then drops them. Does that cause physical pain that might lessen their readyness for combat?

Yeah, if it were someone like you or I or most anyone in RL, but going days without sleep would also lessen someone's readiness for battle, so I guess Sidious is always at a disadvantage when fighting, and can do better had he not went days without sleeping.

#ReachingReachingReaching

Unless you can prove that the initial force pin caused significant pain enough to affect their performance in battle, then stop reaching. I didn't see any signs of pain when they were released from Sidious' grip. If anything, all it did was annoy them which would likely feed their dark side powers. In fact, before Maul charges at Sidious, he looks at Savage with seeming confidence. No, there was no sign of physical pain that may have lessened their readyness for battle.

Originally posted by Nai
you keep missing the important point: Sidious is forced over the edge. So, apparently, in that little section of the duel, he isn't "stomping" anybody

Really? And what was Sidious doing when he was "forced" over the edge? Go back and watch that part of the duel.

Originally posted by Nai
but is forced into a position of disadvantage.

Sidious wasn't force in any position, he put himself in any position he was in during his duel with the brothers due to his tauntful playfullness.

Originally posted by Nai
Which he then negates pulling the duo down with him. Granted, they might have followed on their own, and probably that move didn't make much of a difference, yet,

using it, Sidious took the initiative out of the brothers hand, leaving them no choice if to follow or not and no time to relax / organize tactics or a coordinated

attack on their opponent now on lower ground. Leading to the next point:

So the force pull didn't do anything decisive in the battle, other than not giving them time to pull out chairs to relax for a minute?

Also, what coordinated attack could they have done to Sidious? Throw their sabers at him?

#ReachingReachingReaching

You should definitely give up debating on vs forums.

Originally posted by Nai
He did not end the 2-on-1 by flip kicking Savage. Savage was still near and, as seen, ready to continue the lightsaber fights moments later.

Moments is very critical in a fight.

Originally posted by Nai
The force push against Maul, that did remove him from the fight for a rather long amount of time, might have been decisive, because it enabled Sidious to focus on

Savage alone, killing him.

That particular force move was decisive, and that's why I said that it was the only force move that was decisive in the fight, but it was hardly needed, as Sidious was definitely stomping them before that force push, and when he did utilize the force push on Maul, his sabers were deactivated after his rather show-offy flip kick on Savage. So obviously the force push wasn't a desperate move on Sidious' part to separate the brothers, otherwise he wouldn't have waisted time toying around with Savage with his sabers deactivated, giving Maul time to recover from the force push. No, he would have ended Savage as quickly as possible. And like I said before, there were plenty of opportunities for Sidious to utilize a similar force push on Maul, such as when he paused and allowed the brothers to think through their next move (the pause right before Savage leaps over him), so why did Sidious wait to use such a move on Maul when his sabers were deactivated? Maybe it's because...his sabers were deactivated.

Originally posted by Nai
but utilizing his lightsaber skills only? So he turned it into a 1-on-1 and got rid of one of his opponents. And then? He duels Maul, yes

And what does he do before he duels Maul 1-on-1? He allows Maul to watch his brother die as he laughs his ass off and taunts Maul about being replacing him, allowing Maul's rage to reach it's peak, which as we know a trained dark sider can enhance his performance from his rage. Yeah, that whole fight was definitely prolonged because Sidious wanted it that way, as he was enjoying finding pleasure in the fight and enjoying it (Filoni, and Shadow Conspiracy)

Originally posted by Nai
but finally he decides to force rape him as well – out of a saber lock.

He didn't saber rape Maul out of a saber lock...?

If you're referring to force enhanced strength, then yeah. But then again, all force users use the force to enhance their strength and speed. I don't separate force enhanced speed and/or strenght from saber duel, because they all play a huge roll when fighting other force users. Lack any of these attributes, then they might as well put the saber down. That Sidious has more power to draw on to enhance his physicality than most, is an advantage he has in a saber duel.

Originally posted by Nai
I also saw Sidious laughing manically when confronting Yoda. Is that the next step in your Sidious-Fanboy-Program? The declaration, that he also didn't take Yoda

seriously and was just toying around with him while enyoing himself?

What fight fight did you watch? When Yoda and Sidious were deep in their saber clash on the podium, Sidious doesn't laugh once, instead he showed signs of struggle and worry, along with grunting and screams of frustration. The only time he laughed during his confrontation with Yoda, was when Yoda was either unconscious, or when he was at a distance from Yoda utilizing force moves, or when they began their saber clash on even ground (ironic, huh?). So, no, Sidious wasn't smiling and laughing throughout his saber battle as he was against the brothers.

Originally posted by Nai
It doesn't explain, why the duo does engage Kenobi in lightsaber combat anyway. Neither does it explain, why Kenobi was so certain, that he would be capable of taking

on both of them, with Opress missing arm being a testament of Kenobi's ability to do so. Hell. Even Maul's declaration, that he is not a match for both of them,

implies, that he could be able to take them out individually.

To be honest, I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

The point is, they underestimated Kenobi and assumed they could easily take him captive. This could explain why Maul didn't shove his saber through Kenobi when he had him force suspended in mid-air, and how Maul was able to easily end the fight after Savage was injured. If these moves came that easy for Maul, then it stands to reason that they were never aiming to kill Kenobi throughout the fight, and were thus holding back, along with the fact that they have both defeated Kenobi on other occasions.

Originally posted by Nai
And when did he got "his ass handed to him" by the brothers individually?

Savage has fought off both Kenobi and Skywalker at the same time on two occasions, seemingly having the upper hand both times (I believe the episode was "Monster"😉. Savage has also easily disarmed Kenobi in one of the episode that was either titled "Brothers" or "Revival." I forget, but anyway, it was the same episode where Ventress and Kenobi fought as a team against Maul and Savage, wherein the very same episode, Maul practically stomps Kenobi.

Originally posted by Nai
I also enjoy the idea, that context suddenly matters for fights. Why "suddenly", you ask? Simple as this: When I demanded to take context into consideration regarding

the duel of Dooku and Anakin in RotS, that demand was met with ignorance by individuals such as yourself. Why? Because Dooku, who had to lose against Anakin, couldn't

go all out against the Jedi and taunted him to utilize that Dark feelings, which finally led to Dooku's demise.

The novel that says Dooku initially planned to lose to Skywalker, is the same novel that says Dooku abandoned that plan, and instead started fighting for his life. So, no, Dooku didn't lose to Anakin because he was holding back.

Furthermore, I don't remember ever taking the duel out of context. I believe Dooku has a shot at defeating Anakin if he doesn't taunt Anakin, allowing Anakin to utilize his anger with clarity as he did aboard The Invisible Hand. But then again, you have to consider all of Anakin's consistent close fights with Dooku all throughout TCW.

Originally posted by Nai
And even here, I don't see anybody taking into consideration that the strike team coming to arrest Sidious was coming to arrest him. Killing the Supreme Chancellor of

the Republic was not an option. It still wasn't an option for Mace, when he engaged Sidious in a lightsaber fight. So again, combatants in the need to hold back to a

certain degree, without people considering this context. I wonder why. Not fitting your line of thought?

Because the fact that Kolar and Tiin were unable to even block a single strike from Sidious, I seriously doubt that whether they initially planned on killing the chancellor would have made a difference. Furthermore, the novel makes it clear that Windu was not using jedi restraint during the actual fight. It was only after Sidious was disarmed and seemingly at his mercy, that he restrained himself from a killing blow, which is what jedi are ordered to do: to not strike down a defenseless person. However, jedi are more than willing to kill their opponents in the middle of confrontations, and will not hold back if their life is endangered. Mace killed a non-force user in AOTC (Jango); Yoda has killed King Alarec who was his former best friend, when Alaric opened fire on him.

Originally posted by Nai
I can read a book regarding Kung Fu, teaching me the different styles, all movements and patterns and, after such lecture, I could teach those to others. Does that

turn me into a master of every Kung Fu style? Hardly. Why? Because true mastery can only be archived by a combination of training (like repeating "patterns"😉, practice

(training fights) and – in case of lightsaber forms - actual combat experience.

More reaching.

Sidious is a confirmed master of every form. Now, you can accept it or not, I couldn't care less. You questioned Sidious technical skill, and was provided a source confirming it, so now you're grasping at straws because your original argument, that Sidious lacks technical skill but instead relies on force enhanced speed and reflexes, was flushed down the toilet along with the other shit you've been babbling about. I've explained to you that being able to utilize his mastery of all forms with such speed, precision, reflex etc, is utilizing his mastery of of forms in a masterful application in a context of a duel. How is it not. Also, having mastery of all forms gives one an advantage, as they are able to adopt certain advantages that a certain form may hold over another.

Originally posted by Nai
And even here, I don't see anybody taking into consideration that the strike team coming to arrest Sidious was coming to arrest him. Killing the Supreme Chancellor of

the Republic was not an option. It still wasn't an option for Mace, when he engaged Sidious in a lightsaber fight. So again, combatants in the need to hold back to a

certain degree, without people considering this context. I wonder why. Not fitting your line of thought?

Because the fact that Kolar and Tiin were unable to even block a single strike from Sidious, I seriously doubt that whether they initially planned on killing the chancellor would have made a difference. Furthermore, the novel makes it clear that Windu was not using jedi restraint during the actual fight. It was only after Sidious was disarmed and seemingly at his mercy, that he restrained himself from a killing blow, which is what jedi are ordered to do: to not strike down a defenseless person. However, jedi are more than willing to kill their opponents in the middle of confrontations, and will not hold back if their life is endangered. Mace killed a non-force user in AOTC (Jango); Yoda has killed King Alarec who was his former best friend, when Alaric opened fire on him.

Originally posted by Nai
I can read a book regarding Kung Fu, teaching me the different styles, all movements and patterns and, after such lecture, I could teach those to others. Does that

turn me into a master of every Kung Fu style? Hardly. Why? Because true mastery can only be archived by a combination of training (like repeating "patterns"😉, practice

(training fights) and – in case of lightsaber forms - actual combat experience.

More reaching.

Sidious is a confirmed master of every form. Now, you can accept it or not, I couldn't care less. You questioned Sidious technical skill, and was provided a source confirming it, so now you're grasping at straws because your original argument, that Sidious lacks technical skill but instead relies on force enhanced speed and reflexes, was flushed down the toilet along with the other shit you've been babbling about. I've explained to you that being able to utilize his mastery of all forms with such speed, precision, reflex etc, is utilizing his mastery of of forms in a masterful application in a context of a duel. How is it not. Also, having mastery of all forms gives one an advantage, as they are able to adopt certain advantages that a certain form may hold over another.

Originally posted by Nai
If I had an extreme bias against Sidious, I wouldn't bother with dicussing anything related to him but simple ignore his existance. If I had an extreme bias against

Sidious, I wouldn't spend money on material primarily dealing with him (e.g. "Darth Plagueis"😉 and - most likely - wouldn't care much about Star Wars as a whole.

Thanks for going out of your way to try to convince me, but I'm not convinced. Sorry.

Originally posted by Nai
Seriously tho, why don't you just admit your rabid fanboyism regarding Sidious. I mean, at least you wouldn't look as silly as you do by trying to deny it, while

running around here with his name attached to your account in capital letters?

I put it in ALL CAPS just for obsessed people like you. 😉

Originally posted by Nai
That your pea-sized brain is incapable of processing any critique regarding Sidious as anything but "hate" already reveals your level of blind, fanatic stupidity.

That I can recall, you're the only one I've ever accused of hating Sidious, and I've had a lot of debates with people who were against Sidious.

You suggest that I'm stupid but you once told Temp that you don't waste your time debating with stupid people, so why do you waste time debating with me? In fact, I'm the main one you target every time you come back and post on here. Is it because of my username? lol

I'm an honest person, so I'm not guna call you a stupid person, because I don't think you are stupid. I think you have some serious issues though, such as your hate obsession with a fictional character, and you don't like the fact that you're unable to beat me.

As for the rest of the debate, there are some points that I would like to address later, but have much time at the moment. And as for the Windu "overpowering" Sidious, I haven't conceded to that, it's just a harder argument for me to put into words, and it really didn't hurt the main argument we are having,

but I can address it at another time.

Sids 66 making long argument posts? WUUUT.

They're usually mind-numbingly dumb, yet mildly amusing.