Originally posted by Stealth Moose
You've clearly been getting your information around here for some time. I've heard these arguments verbatim for years now.
😆 I actually don't even think power counts for much in the end. Intellect over power. Tech and good planning/thinking can tramp dark side power, especially if it's a force user integrating with it.
Being the lord powaz just gets you in deep trouble in Star Wars, falling to the dark side, having your tissue atrophy, getting more and more weak kneed physically.
The Sith should just die off, or evolve their philosophies - it's getting old and they never seem to learn: end rant.
So...this took I while longer. Needed to skim through about 1000 pages of literature and write a 25 page essay in the last week. Mea culpa.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I guess Sidious would have to keep fighting until there is no more room left, huh? I mean, if he can last as long as he did in such a confined space without any room whatsoever to give ground or leap away, then it stands to reason that he'd just last longer on even ground, having far more room to give ground and avoid any "ferocious assaults."Now, I'm not arguing Sidious can last forever on even ground or that he'd even win. I think you're so desperate to win a debate that you're not even understanding what's being argued here. Or maybe you're the one who is having trouble in comprehending.
Gosh. Apparently, you do need a reminder of what was argued here:
"I'm referring to the platform that Sidious and Yoda were fighting on, which put Sidious at a disadvantage[...]"
I have just demonstrated, that the platform is clearly not a position of disadvantage for Sidious and also not a position of advantage for Yoda. And since you didn't provide a single argument to counter my reasoning, I happily accept your concession.
That's great. We've seen Sidious slaughter two jedi master before they were able to react--before Mace and Fisto were able to do anything to Sidious despite the fact that Sidious was saber length away from them.
Not exactly. What we have seen is this: Sidious ignites a lightsaber, utters a singleliner and jumps. None of that being enough to provoke any kind of reaction from the Jedi assembly, which is, frankly, laughable enough. Then he jumps, which happens, apparently, with a speed that allows to make a cut and show how Mace – as the only of four beings – reacts to Sidious launch, before we Sidious proceeds with a slow-motion stabbing movement, cutting down two Jedi who are standing there like statues.
If the intention was to convey the impression of superhuman speed on Sidious' side, Lucas is apparently incapable of doing his job. So is there an alternative hypothesis? Yes. The suggestion that Sidious manipulated his opponets through the Force, diminishing their force abilities, which would lead to less relieable precognition and slower reaction time. Possible? Yes. It would also explain, why Mace (not being affected by the Dark Side so much) was the only one to react. So why not go with that explanation?
And I don't see what Mace (having Fisto between himself and Sidious's victims) should have done, while Fisto didn't move either while the duo was cut down.
I'm not arguing that Yoda can't deflect or evade Sidious' saber attacks. I'm saying that a lower attack from Yoda can be responded to by Sidious such as leaping away or giving ground, and that Yoda can leave a potential opening if he goes straight for a lower body attack.
I will tell you just now, why this notion is completely stupid.
No, my nephew is not as fast as I am, nor is he as strong. But I also don't utilize full speed when he comes charging (running) at me, all I do is take a couple of casual steps back and place my arm out.
Apparently, you have still not grasped the main point. Yoda is just 66 centimeters high. Seriously. Go get yourself a folding meter stick and measure this height from groundlevel. After this, take a couple of casual steps back and place your arm to touch that precise height. You will either find yourself bending your back quite a bit or bowing your knees in order to get your arm on that height. No imagine to fight somebody with your strength and speed while maintaining this position. Maybe you get my point now.
As you are suggesting, both Yoda and Sidious are comparable in both speed and strength, so it wouldn't be a good tactic for Yoda to run straight forward trying to land a shot on Sidious' legs, as Yoda has far less reach than Sidious, which means the chances of Sidious landing a blow before Yoda reaches him are higher.
I have now, in description and numbers, demonstrated, how "far less reach" Yoda has to deal with, when Sidious should try to hit him, while he is on equal ground. We're still talking about 5 to 25 centimeters of reach advantage. We're still talking about a situation in which Yoda can utilize his full force-aided strength, while Sidious can not. We're still talking about a situation, in which Yoda could utilize his full array of offensive moves while Sidious would be limited to low attacks. Yoda would have every reason to stay close to the ground with his assaults, which is why most of his fighting moves take place right there.
This would explain why Yoda utilizes a bunch of acrobats (never staying on the ground or in one spot for long)--to confuse his opponents so to land a strike when his opponents leaves himself open. This is basically what Yoda was doing to Sidious on the confined platform, doing circles around Sidious, never staying in one spot.
Yoda utilizes this movement, because on the platform, the Sith Lord does actually have a huge reach advantage that wouldn't have been present on equal ground. I've demonstrated that – mathematically – as well. Apparently to blind eyes.
I didn't mean to suggest that standing on the higher part of the podium completely took away Yoda's disadvantage of reach and height, but it did help. Yoda was able to utilize his strength in their saber locks much better, as he was able to press down on Sidious blade, which is something he seemed to be having trouble doing on even ground.
No it does not help Yoda. In terms of reach and height, being on the podium adds towards Yoda's disadvantage in terms of reach and height, because Sidious – now being capable of fighting close to a "natural" stance with the Jedi, could field a greater reach advantage compared to a situation in which he would be forced to fight the Jedi Master on equal ground and bring more of his strength into the duel. Again, I've demonstrated that mathematically, even though common sense should tell you as much already.
And Yoda was still not pressing down on Sidious blade, because he was still in a lower position compared to Sidious himself. As Aldous Huxley once put it: "Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored."
Nope, you might want to watch that first saber lock again. Yoda actually had more trouble then. All you need to do is look at Yoda's expression when he was trying to keep Sidious from overpowering him in the saber lock, while Sidious was laughing/taunting. Wonder why Yoda wasn't struggling as much when saberlocking Sidious on the higher part of the podium like he was on even ground, or why Sidious wasn't laughing?
First question: Who broke the saber lock? Answer: Yoda.
Second question: What are you smoking? All your interpretations mean nothing in the face of facts. One of such fact is, that it is physically impossible for Sidious to muster his full strength in a saber lock, being forced to hold his blade in a position to meet that of the Jedi Master stranding on equal ground. The second fact is, that, once more, also in this regard, the podium adds to Yodas disadvantage, because there Sidious would be able to add more of his actual strength in such a saber lock (being close to a natural fighting stance), while Yoda would just field the very same amount of strength then before. Why? Because Yoda always breaks those locks by pushing his blade forward and not downward.
Savage sent Sidious flying over the edge because he came running and directly hit Sidious head on. He didn't send Sidious flying from saber clashing with him. I know you're not actually comparing the result of a direct physical attack to a saber clash, now are you?
After reviewing this fight again, you are correct regarding that particular part.
You should watch the beginning of Sidious' saber duel with the brothers. Savage starts out by jumping at Sidious, bringing his full weight and strength down on Sidious blade, and Sidious still manages to press Savage back using only one hand while pressing Maul back in the opposite direction with his other hand. But yeah, a power swipe from Savage would have disarmed and floored Sidious the way it did Dooku. :rolleyes
And after that one moment of clarity, we're back at ignoring certain specifics in lieu of your favorite character.
How, pray tell, can Savage bring his "full weight and strength" down on Sidious blade while mid-air. Don't even bother to attempt and explain it, because that is physically impossible. Under normal circumstances, the only thing such a move would possible grant to the one making it, would be additional momentum for the weapon swing (more power). And when I say "normal circumstances" that would be a reference to "wiedling a regular weapon". But lightsabers, alas, have that nasty habid of being weightless. And as momentum is the product of mass and velocity of an object, attempting to gain some of it with a weightless weapon is, simply put, impossible.
Both of your answers are correct. Yes, Yoda could have likely resisted a force pull. And yes, Sidious probably knew that he couldn't take Yoda in a saber duel, ESPECIALLY in such a confined space, so he abandoned his saber in favor of his force powers.Perhaps Sidious chose such a position because he wanted to take the fight to a spot where he could put his force powers to better use, which is exactly what happened.
[...]
It probably wasn't the safest route for Sidious to choose, but it did work in the end. I'd say it wasn't as stupid as him allowing Yoda to get back on his feet when he had Yoda knocked unconscious.
Answer the following question: Why doesn't Sidious simply attack Yoda with the Force while still on equal ground with the Jedi Master?
As I see it, Sidious quickly realized he doesn't want to fight Yoda on equal ground with a lightsaber. He then manouvers himself into a position of relative advantage (as I have demonstrated), but is still not capable of matching the Jedi Master, who almost sends him down from the podium. Then he decides to try his force abilities against the Jedi as a last resort. You, however, seem to suggest that Sidious planned to do that in the first place. Then why go on with the saber duel on the podium at all?
But let's stick to the facts on what happened. Yoda's ferocious assault caused Sidious to nearly go over the edge of the podium, which resulted in, as you suggested, Sidious purposely dropping his saber in order to retaliate with a force attack. Now, are you suggesting that this same exact sequence would happen on even ground?You're suggesting that if Yoda attacks Sidious with a "ferocious attack" on even ground that Sidious wouldn't give ground or leap away, but would instead purposely drop his saber and use a force attack? Well if this is just something Sidious did because he knew he couldn't beat Yoda in a saber duel, then I wonder why he waited until he almost fell over the edge of the podium before doing it?
I was suggesting, that the fight on equal ground would end with Yoda defeating Sidious, either by cornering the Sith Lord and butchering him or disarming him with superior swordsmanship. Apparently, you agree that this would happen. Which leaves the question, what you're attempting to argue at all? That Sidious would last longer on equal ground? Given the disadvantages he suffers there (compared to the podium), I don't think this would necessarily be the case and is heavily depending on the nature of the room they were fighting in. His office? I doubt it.
You're missing the point. Regardless of whether the jump was necessary or not, the point is Sidious has room to jump distances on even ground, which is something he can't do on a confined platform.
It is also something he doesn't do in a duel. In both his duel with Windu and the fight against the Maul / Opress his acrobatics are limited to flips on a single spot. He doesn't leap around opponents like Yoda, he does nothing that would require any kind of great space. So where is your point?
Not seeing how it was senseless, but I see you're still missing the point.
He does a single backflipping motion, that doesn't get him anywhere compared to moving over the same distance while keeping his feet on the ground. Hardly something essential,is it?
Just admit, you're trying too hard.Yoda can block blasters and move his body faster than droids. So now let's compare droids to Sidious to make you right.
That you should just stop now. 😂
Or do you really want to keep going?
Since you appear to be unwilling or inable to argue my point (hardly a surprise, because I was just stating facts and offering proof for them), I will simple accept you concession here.
If they reach a wall, what? Will Sidious then decide to drop his saber? Or is Yoda going to cut him up as soon as they reach the wall. I mean, Sidious can defend himself on a confined platform for about a minute, but he can't do so when they reach a wall, even though Yoda would have no where to do circles around Sidious, unless he can go through walls.
Stupidity at its finest, part one: Sidious has still room to manouver when on the platform. Something that wouldn't be present when getting cornered, which would also spare the need for Yoda to jump around him.
Oh right. Yoda will lead Sidious to a window and then shatter it, causing Sidious to slow down his speed for a second, and then land a kick to Sidious face the same way Mace did (yes Yoda has long legs like Windu to pull off this feat in a similar fashion). Yup this is something that would have happened had they not took their fight on the podium. Yoda would either find a window to exploit, or Sidious would run into a wall in less than a minute.
Stupidity at its finest, part two: Obviously, I was referring to your thought construct of "equal ground", which seemed to be an unlimited space, where Sidious can just give ground ad infinitum. The "equal ground" present for this speculative debate would, obviously, be Sidious office. Where Mace Windu cornered and disarmed him in under a minute. Granted. Yoda would most likely don't kick the lightsaber out of Sidious hand, but maybe use another "ferocious assault" to send the Sith Lord out of the window.
Yes Sidious is completely defenseless with his back to a wall. There is no way to get out of that position, you know, like side stepping and then moving away from the wall. Nope, a wall will surround him completely, giving him no other area to move to. But then again, you suggested that lack of room to give ground wasn't a disadvantage to Sidious on a confined platform, so how do you assume a wall would be a disadvantage for him?
He can manouver even less than on the podium, doesn't benefit fromt he advantages that position offered to him (see above) and will have Yoda hacking away in front of him. Again, your imagination seems to be some room without any limitations (e.g. corners), when I was talking about confined space (e.g. Sidious office).
And you say I'm the one who needs to think before typing.
Yes. So, pray tell, why don't you listen to that advice?
Yeah, if it were someone like you or I or most anyone in RL, but going days without sleep would also lessen someone's readiness for battle, so I guess Sidious is always at a disadvantage when fighting, and can do better had he not went days without sleeping.
What the hell are you even talking about?
And "beeing sleepy" is somehow compareable to getting slammed into a wall so hard, that structural damage to said wall occurs?
Unless you can prove that the initial force pin caused significant pain enough to affect their performance in battle, then stop reaching. I didn't see any signs of pain when they were released from Sidious' grip. If anything, all it did was annoy them which would likely feed their dark side powers. In fact, before Maul charges at Sidious, he looks at Savage with seeming confidence. No, there was no sign of physical pain that may have lessened their readyness for battle.
Reaching? For what? May I remind you, that this point was started with yourself claiming that Sidious wasn't utilizing the Force that much during the little confrontation with the brothers? I couldn't care less about the actual effect of that Force use, but questioning that it had one, even if only demonstrating to the duo, that they had no chance against Sidious, should he be inclined to utilize his Force powers against them, is pretty idiotic.
Really? And what was Sidious doing when he was "forced" over the edge? Go back and watch that part of the duel.
Stomping the duo? I recall him getting a boot to his face. Somehow, I can neither see that as a testament to him being in full control of the fight nor as proof that he was "stomping" the two brothers there and then.
Sidious wasn't force in any position, he put himself in any position he was in during his duel with the brothers due to his tauntful playfullness.
I'd love to see your proof for that. He gives ground. He moves backwards, at least to the point where he goes over the edge. Is he in any danger there of losing the duel? Probably not. But he is not in full control of it either. The cause of that? It could be that, as you theorized, his initial force attack stirred the Dark Side in the brothers, making them (temporarily) stronger. It could be, that he wasn't commiting all he got to the fight, before being send down from the balcony. But proclaiming that he was "stomping" the duo there or controlling the fight is simple put, senseless.
So the force pull didn't do anything decisive in the battle, other than not giving them time to pull out chairs to relax for a minute?Also, what coordinated attack could they have done to Sidious? Throw their sabers at him?
#ReachingReachingReaching
You should definitely give up debating on vs forums. [/B]
This retort is especially stupid, when we take the next words from yourself into consideration:
Moments is very critical in a fight._
So you proclaim, that "moments" can be very critical in a fight, yet see no relevance in Sidious taking that "moments" away from the duo by pulling them down with him? And even better: That "moments" of stunning Savage are the crucial point in this fight for you, while more than 30 seconds of Maul being removed from the fight via the Force push don't matter?
That particular force move was decisive, and that's why I said that it was the only force move that was decisive in the fight, but it was hardly needed, as Sidious was definitely stomping them before that force push, and when he did utilize the force push on Maul, his sabers were deactivated after his rather show-offy flip kick on Savage. So obviously the force push wasn't a desperate move on Sidious' part to separate the brothers, otherwise he wouldn't have waisted time toying around with Savage with his sabers deactivated, giving Maul time to recover from the force push. No, he would have ended Savage as quickly as possible. And like I said before, there were plenty of opportunities for Sidious to utilize a similar force push on Maul, such as when he paused and allowed the brothers to think through their next move (the pause right before Savage leaps over him), so why did Sidious wait to use such a move on Maul when his sabers were deactivated? Maybe it's because...his sabers were deactivated.
Oh, okay. Now it suddenly was decisive for the fight. 🙄
My point was, and, apparently, I just need to state it again, that Sidious wasn't stomping anybody. He was holding his own against the brothers, which was impressive enough, but "stomping" them? I didn't see him flooring them left and right, just to have a Martini, while waiting for them regaining their composture. He doesn't manouver them through the fighting space. Especially not before he gets kicked from the balcony.
And I also wasn't saying that it was a "desperate" move from Sidious. I merely stated, that he might have been uncertain, whether or not he could take the duo with sabers alone and hence seperated them with the force. To gain his maximum fun from this concentration? Very well possible, even likely. But that doesn't rule out the idea, that he wasn't able to saber them down in a whim at will.
And what does he do before he duels Maul 1-on-1? He allows Maul to watch his brother die as he laughs his ass off and taunts Maul about being replacing him, allowing Maul's rage to reach it's peak, which as we know a trained dark sider can enhance his performance from his rage. Yeah, that whole fight was definitely prolonged because Sidious wanted it that way, as he was enjoying finding pleasure in the fight and enjoying it (Filoni, and_Shadow Conspiracy)
See above. I'm not denying the notion that Sidios didn't take this fight seriously and neither do I suggest, that he was – at any time – in the danger of losing it. I'm merely suggesting, that he played it save, once Savage managed to land that kick on him. Who wouldn't?
He didn't saber rape Maul out of a saber lock...?If you're referring to force enhanced strength, then yeah. But then again, all force users use the force to enhance their strength and speed. I don't separate force enhanced speed and/or strenght from saber duel, because they all play a huge roll when fighting other force users. Lack any of these attributes, then they might as well put the saber down. That Sidious has more power to draw on to enhance his physicality than most, is an advantage he has in a_saber duel.
I'm referring to the very end of the duel, when they both fight with two sabers, engage in a saber lock and the next second Sidious uses the force to grip Maul, slam him into the next wall, to the ground and then brings him down with Force Lightning.
The point is, they underestimated Kenobi and assumed they could easily take him captive. This could explain why Maul didn't shove his saber through Kenobi when he had him force suspended in mid-air, and how Maul was able to easily end the fight after Savage was injured. If these moves came that easy for Maul, then it stands to reason that they were never aiming to kill Kenobi throughout the fight, and were thus holding back, along with the fact that they have both defeated Kenobi on other occasions.
I'm rather sure, you weren't getting the point here.
They enter the fray with the goal of capturing Kenobi. They end the fray with one of them missing an arm, and the other being forced to remove Kenobi from the scene with a rather desperate force push. That they aren't even capable of keeping Kenobi disarmed pretty much shows that they aren't up to capture him. Could they kill him? Together, that would very well be possible. One of them alone? I seriously doubt it.
Savage has fought off both Kenobi and Skywalker at the same time on two occasions, seemingly having the upper hand both times (I believe the episode was "Monster"😉. Savage has also easily disarmed Kenobi in one of the episode that was either titled "Brothers" or "Revival." I forget, but anyway, it was the same episode where Ventress and Kenobi fought as a team against Maul and Savage, wherein the very same episode, Maul practically stomps Kenobi.
On both occassions, Savage was extremely pissed off and the Jedi were holding back, not even attempting to kill him. The second time they fought him, he had just put Ventress and Dooku down in a surge of anger, which indicates, that – in this "mode" – he can cause some trouble.
I recall Savage disarming Kenobi with brute strength, with Kenobi – seemingly – not even trying to defend himself with all he could at that point in time. And the latter fight? I don't recall Maul "stomping" Kenobi.
The novel that says Dooku initially planned to lose to Skywalker, is the same novel that says Dooku abandoned that plan, and instead started fighting for his life. So, no, Dooku didn't lose to Anakin because he was holding back.
You're quite wrong there. Dooku decides not to toy with Kenobi and Anakin together, since the Jedi combined are stronger than he thought he were. Then he takes Kenobi down. The plan to lose to Skywalker remained, as he didn't expect that Sidious would allow that he would be killed (which is clear from the RotS novel, and Sidious recollection of the scene in "The Essential Guide through the Force"😉
Furthermore, I don't remember ever taking the duel out of context. I believe Dooku has a shot at defeating Anakin if he doesn't taunt Anakin, allowing Anakin to utilize his anger with clarity as he did aboard The Invisible Hand. But then again, you have to consider all of Anakin's consistent close fights with Dooku all throughout TCW.
Applaus for the first part. The "consistent close" fights in TCW? While I recall Anakin flooring Dooku in their second confrontation during the fourth season in the series, Dooku almost casually disarms Anakin during their first fight. Not to mention, that the Sith Lord is vastly superior to Anakin, when it comes to force abilities.
Because the fact that Kolar and Tiin were unable to even block a single strike from Sidious, I seriously doubt that whether they initially planned on killing the chancellor would have made a difference.
Charging into his office and chopping him into pieces would most certainly have made a difference. Not that they would have done this, had they intended to kill him. The point is, that they were expecting to arrest a politician that maybe was a Sith Lord. And their previous experience with Sith Lords in combat (hint: zero) didn't allow them to be prepared for what was coming. Hence, their inability to even move, when Sidious comes flying (Mace aside).
Furthermore, the novel makes it clear that Windu was not using jedi restraint during the actual fight. It was only after Sidious was disarmed and seemingly at his mercy, that he restrained himself from a killing blow, which is what jedi are ordered to do: to not strike down a defenseless person. However, jedi are more than willing to kill their opponents in the middle of confrontations, and will not hold back if their life is endangered. Mace killed a non-force user in AOTC (Jango); Yoda has killed King Alarec who was his former best friend, when Alaric opened fire on him.
No. The novel makes clear that from Anakin's view of the fight there seemed to be no Jedi restrained there. From Mace's point of view, we learn, that he is fighting on auto-pilot while attempting to find Sidious Shatterpoint. And, of course, we have the fact that refrains from killing Sidious, which – had there been no restraint left – he would probably have done initially.
Sidious is a confirmed master of every form. Now, you can accept it or not, I couldn't care less. You questioned Sidious technical skill, and was provided a source confirming it, so now you're grasping at straws because your original argument, that Sidious lacks technical skill but instead relies on force enhanced speed and reflexes, was flushed down the toilet along with the other shit you've been babbling about. I've explained to you that being able to utilize his mastery of all forms with such speed, precision, reflex etc, is utilizing his mastery of of forms in a masterful application in a context of a duel. How is it not. Also, having mastery of all forms gives one an advantage, as they are able to adopt certain advantages that a certain form may hold over another.
Oh my.
I have explained now, multiple times, that there are different degrees of "mastery" in terms of lightsaber combat, considering the contexts, in which the term "mastery" or "master" was used throughout the source material. If you need a more placative example: In the TOTJ comics, Nomi Sunrider picks the lightsaber of her dead husband up to defend herself and her daughter from some thugs. The narration makes clear, that she "wields the weapon like a master". Without a second of actual training, without even touching the weapon before. That's one extreme. The second extreme would be Kas'im who literally dedicated decades to master each and every single form of lightsaber combat, archiving technical perfection.
Obviously, Sidious is to be ranked somewhere between those two extremes. But where? Considering what we know about his own master (who was also a "master" of the art, while finding it a complete waste of time), his training and his studies, he seems to be on the Nomi-end rather than on the Kas'im one.
You suggest that I'm stupid but you once told Temp that you don't waste your time debating with stupid people, so why do you waste time debating with me? In fact, I'm the main one you target every time you come back and post on here. Is it because of my username? lol
I'll give you two hints:
1) You're not the only person reading my posts.
2) There is a difference between acting stupid, being stupid on occassion and being a complete idiot worth of placing him on an ignore list.
I'm an honest person, so I'm not guna call you a stupid person, because I don't think you are stupid. I think you have some serious issues though, such as your hate obsession with a fictional character, and you don't like the fact that you're unable to beat me.
I neither have a "hate obsession" with Sidious, nor am I unable to beat you. Given that you haven't found anything to counter more than half of my arguments, I'd call that a win.
As for the rest of the debate, there are some points that I would like to address later, but have much time at the moment. And as for the Windu "overpowering" Sidious, I haven't conceded to that, it's just a harder argument for me to put into words, and it really didn't hurt the main argument we are having,but I can address it at another time.
There is nothing to argue there, without extreme reaching on your part.
It's going to take me perhaps days to get to all of that. I've been busy with work, and even when I do find time, I'm usually too mentally exhausted from work and other stresses to engage in long drawn out debates.
As for the Sidious vs Maul/Savage, go back and read Han's post regarding Sidious' saber expertise by using that fight as an example. Your response to him was that Sidious used a lot of offensive force moves in order to handle them, which wasn't true. The first offensive force move he used was before any of them had their sabers out, which didn't really do anything other than irritate the duo before they ignited their sabers and charged at Sidious. Sidious being knocked over the balcony by Savage was when he was waving his saber at Maul while smiling like a maniac, instead of just force pushing Maul off the edge of the balcony (which is something he would have done if he was really going all out on them), so Savage took this advantage to knock Sidious over because Sidious gave it to him by toying around and not taking the fight seriously, not because they were pressing Sidious.
Originally posted by Nai
Not exactly. What we have seen is this: Sidious ignites a lightsaber, utters a singleliner and jumps. None of that being enough to provoke [iany kind[/i] of reaction from the Jedi assembly, which is, frankly, laughable enough.
The one-liner and the jump gave them enough time to spread out and anticipate an attack. Are you suggesting that all four of them should have leaped at Sidious in the cramped area where his chair was?
Originally posted by Nai
Then he jumps, which happens, apparently, with a speed that allows to make a cut and show how Mace – as the only of four beings – reacts to Sidious launch, before we Sidious proceeds with a slow-motion stabbing movement, cutting down two Jedi who are standing there like statues.
They were standing there like statues because Palpatine cut them down before they could react. Unless you're suggesting that jedi masters are slower than my grandma? Precognition or not, no one should move that slow, unless they are severely handicapped.
The scene was suppose to depict a speed disparity. Palpatine is that fast. Get over it.
Originally posted by Nai
If the intention was to convey the impression of superhuman speed on Sidious' side, Lucas is apparently incapable of doing his job.
Well, you should write Lucas a letter then because that was the intention according to Mcdiarmid, who worked closely with Lucas and who did his own stunts in that particular scene.
^About 5:25, or you could go back a little earlier for more detail. No mention of Sidious using some ability to cause the jedi to stand like statues, no, apparently Sidious was suppose to be extremely fast.
Furthermore, there are sources that credit Sidious quick slaughtering of the jedi to his speed(The Complete Visual Dictionary; The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia). Hell, you even suggested it earlier in the thread when you claimed Sidious lacked technical skill and instead relied solely on his force mastery for speed and precision. Do you take back that claim?
Originally posted by Nai
So is there an alternative hypothesis? Yes. The suggestion that Sidious manipulated his opponets through the Force, diminishing their force abilities, which would lead to less relieable precognition and slower reaction time. Possible? Yes. It would also explain, why Mace (not being affected by the Dark Side so much) was the only one to react. So why not go with that explanation?
Well, Arhael had provided a source that says force users do use the force to try to confuse each others precognition in saber duels, but as I said, having less reliable precognition shouldn't cause anyone to stand like statues, and barely being able to lift their sabers in the time it takes Palpatine to slaughter the first two, unless there was just a speed disparity. A force user can still use the force to see time in slow motion as Maul has in Shadow Hunter, which is different than precognition considering that Dooku relied solely on precognition while fighting blind. But if you're suggesting that Sidious used the force to cause the jedi to move like turtles then provide your proof or shut up.
Originally posted by Nai
And I don't see what Mace (having Fisto between himself and Sidious's victims) should have done, while Fisto didn't move either while the duo was cut down.
Well according to you Mace wasn't affected by this speculative power Sidious was using to slow down his opponents, therefore Windu should have been fast enough to cut Palpatine down in the time it took Sidious to slowly cut down the first two jedi.
Your tactic here, is to divert this into another debate so I can forget my original point: Sidious is far faster than the jedi whom Yoda evaded. Therefore pulling a risky move by going straight for Sidious' legs would be foolish on Yoda's part.
Originally posted by Nai
Apparently, you have still not grasped the main point. Yoda is just 66 centimeters high. Seriously. Go get yourself a folding meter stick and measure this height from groundlevel. After this, take a couple of casual steps back and place your arm to touch that precise height. You will either find yourself bending your back quite a bit or bowing your knees in order to get your arm on that height.
Except Sidious isn't fighting with just his arms. He is armed with a lightsaber that adds on to his reach--a lightsaber that is longer than Yoda's. So it would be a foolish move on Yoda's part to lunge straight for Sidious' legs, because Sidious would have a greater chance at landing a strike on Yoda before Yoda reaches his legs, which is probably why Yoda rarely goes for such a move. The only time that I can recall Yoda going for such a move, was when Yoda went to slash at Dooku's legs in DR, in which Dooku responded to by leaping away. Considering that Sidious is quite a bit faster than Dooku and likely has better precognition, I don't see why Sidious couldn't respond in the same manner.
Originally posted by Nai
No imagine to fight somebody with your strength and speed while maintaining this position. Maybe you get my point now.
Kinda like how Dooku was forced to maintain this position here:
(Note: Dooku is quite a bit taller than Sidious.)
Originally posted by Nai
We're still talking about 5 to 25 centimeters of reach advantage. We're still talking about a situation in which Yoda can utilize his full force-aided strength, while Sidious can not.
Looks to me like he was doing better in overpowering Sidious in saber locks while on the podium, considering that his facial expressions weren't showing signs of struggle as it did when he locked with Sidious on even ground. Also, Sidious didn't laugh once in any of their saber locks while they were on the podium like he was when they locked on even ground. Seems to me that Sidious had a harder time utilizing his strength on the podium, whereas Yoda had a harder time utilizing it on even ground. Quite the opposite from what you're arguing, huh?
Originally posted by Nai
We're still talking about a situation, in which Yoda could utilize his full array of offensive moves while Sidious would be limited to low attacks. Yoda would have every reason to stay close to the ground with his assaults, which is why most of his fighting moves take place right there.
Wrong. Yoda never stays on the ground for long. Usually his attacks happen when he is in mid-air, though he does block attacks while he is on the ground.
Originally posted by Nai
No it does not help Yoda. In terms of reach and height, being on the podium adds towards Yoda's disadvantage in terms of reach and height, because Sidious – now being capable of fighting close to a "natural" stance with the Jedi, could field a greater reach advantage compared to a situation in which he would be forced to fight the Jedi Master on equal ground and bring more of his strength into the duel. Again, I've demonstrated that mathematically, even though common sense should tell you as much already.
No, you demonstrated that I would have to bend down considerably to touch something as short as Yoda with my arms.
Originally posted by Nai
And Yoda was still not pressing down on Sidious blade, because he was still in a lower position compared to Sidious himself.
Well according to you, Yoda was high enough for Sidious to fight close to natural stance (which would be high enough for Yoda to be able press down on Sidious' blade). Which one is it?
Originally posted by Nai
As Aldous Huxley once put it: "Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored."
So stop ignoring facts.
Fact is, Sidious lost the saber duel after nearly falling over the edge of the podium, which wouldn't happen on even ground, as there would be no edge to almost go over, and Sidious would have room to give ground or leap away from any ferocious attacks. Evidently, he was unable to on the confined podium, which is why he almost fell and dropped his saber.
Now, I want you to answer this question: how does Sidious not having much room to give ground or leap away from Yoda's attacks, only being able to rely almost solely on his saber to block Yoda's blows, not a disadvantage? How is having less room to maneuver than your opponent not a disadvantage?
Originally posted by Nai
First question: Who broke the saber lock? Answer: Yoda.
Yoda did, after seemingly struggling, and while Sidious was laughing with seeming confidence.
Originally posted by Nai
Second question: What are you smoking?
Apparently not the same stuff you are.
Originally posted by Nai
One of such fact is, that it is physically impossible for Sidious to muster his full strength in a saber lock, being forced to hold his blade in a position to meet that of the Jedi Master stranding on equal ground.
I don't see how you figure this. But evidently Sidious wasn't struggling as much during their saber lock on even ground as he was during their saber locks on the podium. You didn't see him laugh once on the podium, did you? Nope, quite the opposite.
Originally posted by Nai
How, pray tell, can Savage bring his "full weight and strength" down on Sidious blade while mid-air.
I'm referring to the force of the impact when Savage landed on the ground and continued to press down on Sidious' blade with both arms, only to be pressed back by one of Sidious' arms, while Sidious was pushing Maul back in the opposite direction with the other arm. The impact of Savage's jump and him forcing down on Sidious' blade with both arms after the impact of the jump didn't even budge Sidious' arm. So how in the world do you assume Savage can disarm and floor Sidious the way he did Dooku?
Even in the novel, Savage was surprised at just how strong Sidious was. Evidently that particular sequence was to showcase Sidious superior physical strength over the brothers.
Originally posted by Nai
Answer the following question: Why doesn't Sidious simply attack Yoda with the Force while still on equal ground with the Jedi Master?
As I see it, Sidious quickly realized he doesn't want to fight Yoda on equal ground with a lightsaber.
He did. If you are referring to when they began to cross blades, then that would be my question: why didn't Sidious simply attack Yoda with the force instead continuing the saber fight period? I mean, he did it on the podium right after nearly falling off, before Yoda was able to finish him off with his blade?
Originally posted by Nai
He then manouvers himself into a position of relative advantage (as I have demonstrated)
You haven't demonstrated it.
Originally posted by Nai
but is still not capable of matching the Jedi Master, who almost sends him down from the podium.
Yes, because Sidious had no room to give ground. On even ground there wouldn't be anywhere for Yoda to nearly send him down.
But yeah, obviously having hardly any room to maneuver wasn't a disadvantage for Sidious. 🙄
Originally posted by Nai
Then he decides to try his force abilities against the Jedi as a last resort.
Yup after losing his saber from nearly falling over the edge--an edge that wouldn't have been there had they been on equal ground.
Originally posted by Nai
You, however, seem to suggest that Sidious planned to do that in the first place. Then why go on with the saber duel on the podium at all?
To hold Yoda off until they reach the top, so he can use the senate pods as projectiles against Yoda. It definitely makes sense, and is what ends up happening.
I never said it was the safest route for Sidious, but it's definitely one that worked in the end. Sidious took a risk, but it was a smarter thing to do than to let Yoda get back up after knocking him unconscious with lightning.
Originally posted by Nai
I was suggesting, that the fight on equal ground would end with Yoda defeating Sidious, either by cornering the Sith Lord
Which probably wouldn't happen instantly. And even if Yoda manages to corner Sidious, that doesn't guarantee and instant win for the jedi, as Sidious can still hold Yoda off with his saber just like he mostly had to rely on while being boxed in in the confined podium. Except with a wall, Sidious has a far better chance of getting out of that position such as side stepping and taking the fight to another direction. On the podium, Sidious didn't have hope in diverting the fight in another direction without nearly falling over the edge while trying to defend against Yoda's attacks, which is what eventually happened and how he dropped his saber.
Originally posted by Nai
and butchering him or disarming him with superior swordsmanship.
These things might end up happening on equal ground, but these things wouldn't happen as quick for Yoda nor would they be as easy for him nor would they be guaranteed to him, as Sidious would have room to give ground and leap away. And I don't see how Yoda has much hope in simply butchering Sidious, considering that Sidious was fast enough to recover from losing his balance and dropping his saber, and then attacking Yoda with lightning before Yoda was able to finish him with his saber.
Originally posted by Nai
Apparently, you agree that this would happen. Which leaves the question, what you're attempting to argue at all? That Sidious would last longer on equal ground?
Yes, that's exactly what I'm arguing: Sidious would last longer in a strict saber match and would have a much better chance against Yoda given that there is no edge to nearly fall over.
Originally posted by Nai
It is also something he doesn't do in a duel. In both his duel with Windu and the fight against the Maul / Opress his acrobatics are limited to flips on a single spot. He doesn't leap around opponents like Yoda, he does nothing that would require any kind of great space. So where is your point?
I didn't say he was as acrobatic as Yoda nor did I say he leaps around his opponents like Yoda does (which it seems like you're suggesting that leaping around his opponents is something Yoda does, and not just something he was forced to do on the podium), I'm saying that acrobatic moves (leaping/flipping away) and giving ground are available to him on even ground. Having room to maneuver is something that is automatically present on even ground, which provides more opportunity to retreat or move away from ferocious attacks. Why are you ignoring this fact?
Originally posted by Nai
Stupidity at its finest, part one: Sidious has still room to manouver when on the platform.
What, a couple of steps to turn around in circles or step on and off a higher and lower part of the platform? His room to maneuver was severely limited, which is exactly how he almost fell over the edge.
Originally posted by Nai
Something that wouldn't be present when getting cornered, which would also spare the need for Yoda to jump around him.
So Sidious is unable to side step? Unlike on the podium, Sidious at least wouldn't be surrounded by edges to go over.
And lol @ sparing Yoda the "need" to jump around him. That's basically what gave Yoda the advantage on the podium. Even on even ground, Yoda usually jumps around and never stays in one spot or the ground for long.
Originally posted by Nai
Stupidity at its finest, part two: Obviously, I was referring to your thought construct of "equal ground", which seemed to be an unlimited space, where Sidious can just give ground ad infinitum.
Please quote me where I said this?
I said Sidious would have more room on equal ground, which would thus likely take Yoda a lot longer to back Sidious into a wall than it did for him to nearly send Sidious over the edge of the podium, considering that there is more space between Sidious and any wall in the room than there was between Sidious and the edges that surrounded him on the podium.
Originally posted by Nai
The "equal ground" present for this speculative debate would, obviously, be Sidious office. Where Mace Windu cornered and disarmed him in under a minute. Granted. Yoda would most likely don't kick the lightsaber out of Sidious hand, but maybe use another "ferocious assault" to send the Sith Lord out of the window.
First of all, Sidious' fight with Yoda did not take place in the same building where he fought Windu. Sidious fought Windu in the Chancellor's office, whereas he fought Yoda in the senate buiding. Second of all, the OP makes no mention of the location, other than that it's on flat, open terrain.
Furthermore, if you watch Mace's fight with Sidious again, Sidious is the one who chose to take the fight in the direction of the Window, it wasn't Windu. And when they were fighting at the edge of the Window, Sidious blocks an attack from Windu and then switches sides with Windu instead of just moving away from the Window, which he had that opportunity to. But I guess you can argue that the pull of the winds made it hard for Sidious to move away from the window. Regardless, simply extending his leg is likely to come easier for Mace than it would for Yoda to unleash a ferocious assault, considering it would require Yoda to leap at Sidious, while also fighting against the pull of the winds, which may be harder for Yoda given his smaller size.
Originally posted by Nai
And "beeing sleepy" is somehow compareable to getting slammed into a wall so hard, that structural damage to said wall occurs?
Yes, going days without sleep can cause you to hallucinate and see things, weaken your body considerably, affect your concentration, etc.
I can't prove that Sidious' lack of sleep affected his readiness for battle any more than you can prove that getting slammed into a window affected Maul/Savage's readiness for battle.
The only thing the slammed seemed to do, was anger the duo, which can feed the dark side, just as being repeatedly blasted by Dooku's lightning only angered Savage to the point of overwhelming both Dooku and Ventress, and then proceeding to go on and fight off both Kenobi and Anakin, and then force-flooring them and a bunch of droids after being shot by multiple blaster bolts.
Originally posted by Nai
Reaching? For what? May I remind you, that this point was started with yourself claiming that Sidious wasn't utilizing the Force that much during the little confrontation with the brothers? I couldn't care less about the actual effect of that Force use, but questioning that it had one, even if only demonstrating to the duo, that they had no chance against Sidious, should he be inclined to utilize his Force powers against them, is pretty idiotic.
No, I never denied any of the times Sidious used the force, and it's not how the point was started. But I've already addressed this the other day:
Originally posted by Me
As for the Sidious vs Maul/Savage, go back and read Han's post regarding Sidious' saber expertise by using that fight as an example. Your response to him was that Sidious used a lot of offensive force moves in order to handle them, which wasn't true. The first offensive force move he used was before any of them had their sabers out, which didn't really do anything other than irritate the duo before they ignited their sabers and charged at Sidious. Sidious being knocked over the balcony by Savage was when he was waving his saber at Maul while smiling like a maniac, instead of just force pushing Maul off the edge of the balcony (which is something he would have done if he was really going all out on them), so Savage took this advantage to knock Sidious over because Sidious gave it to him by toying around and not taking the fight seriously, not because they were pressing Sidious.
Originally posted by Nai
I'd love to see your proof for that. He gives ground. He moves backwards, at least to the point where he goes over the edge.
He takes casual steps backwards and then forces Maul to leap onto the railing of the balcony, and then proceeds to just wave his saber at Maul while smiling like a maniac, and then Savage comes out of nowhere and knocks him over. Again, this happens because Sidious wasn't taking them seriously. This is backed up by Filoni's statement that Sidious was enjoying himself, and the novel saying that Maul "sensed a terrible pleasure" in Sidious.
Originally posted by Nai
Is he in any danger there of losing the duel? Probably not. But he is not in full control of it either.But proclaiming that he was "stomping" the duo there or controlling the fight is simple put, senseless.
I think you're taking the term "in full control" a bit too seriously.
Sidious was in full control of the fight in that he could have finished them a lot sooner had he not been toying with them. Sidious wasn't in any threat of being beaten. And Savage hitting Sidious was an advantage that Sidious gave to him, not a disadvantage that they forced upon him (see above).
As the website confirms, Sidious "never wavered away from his position of superiority."
Originally posted by Nai
This retort is especially stupid, when we take the next words from yourself into consideration:
You claimed the move was decisive in that Sidious didn't give them time to rest.
Originally posted by Nai
So you proclaim, that "moments" can be very critical in a fight, yet see no relevance in Sidious taking that "moments" away from the duo by pulling them down with him?
No, I don't, unless you can point out what they could have possibly done to Sidious in those "moments." I asked you and you were unable to answer, so does that mean you conceded the point?
Originally posted by Nai
And even better: That "moments" of stunning Savage are the crucial point in this fight for you, while more than 30 seconds of Maul being removed from the fight via the Force push don't matter?
Instead of dancing around this point, why don't you just concede it?
Instead of getting to a certain point, you go off to another. Again, how was Sidious force pulling them over the edge a decisive move, other than not giving them time to relax?
Originally posted by Nai
Oh, okay. Now it suddenly was decisive for the fight. 🙄
I never said it wasn't. In fact, I said it was the only decisive offensive force attack that Sidious used throughout the saber duel (meaning: from the time their blades made contact in the palace). My stance was, that Sidious didn't need to force push Maul into the wall in order to defeat them. He used the force on Maul because, once again, he was toying around, not taking the fight seriously, and deactivated his sabers to do a fancy, yet needlessly flip kick on Savage, which Maul nearly took advantage of--a near advantage gave to him by Sidious' lack of taking the fight seriously. Other than that, Sidious was casually blocking all their saber and physical attacks, while landing multiple of his own physical attacks. Yes, Sidious was stomping them, while toying around and enjoying himself. How is that not stomping?
Originally posted by Nai
See above. I'm not denying the notion that Sidios didn't take this fight seriously and neither do I suggest, that he was – at any time – in the danger of losing it. I'm merely suggesting, that he played it save, once Savage managed to land that kick on him. Who wouldn't?
But he didn't play it safe. He deactivates his sabers to do a flip kick on Savage, and then after he force pushes Maul into the wall, leaving Maul unconscious, he continues to leave his sabers deactivated and proceeds to toy with Savage. Hell, he even ends Savage without even looking at him.
Originally posted by Nai
I'm referring to the very end of the duel, when they both fight with two sabers, engage in a saber lock and the next second Sidious uses the force to grip Maul, slam him into the next wall, to the ground and then brings him down with Force Lightning.
I realize this, but this happened after Sidious already disarmed and defeated Maul, so the TK and lightning attacks didn't help Sidious in winning a fight he had already won. The force attacks after the fight was used to satisfy Sidious' sadistic fetish, nothing more.
Originally posted by Nai
They enter the fray with the goal of capturing Kenobi. They end the fray with one of them missing an arm, and the other being forced to remove Kenobi from the scene with a rather desperate force push. That they aren't even capable of keeping Kenobi disarmed pretty much shows that they aren't up to capture him. Could they kill him? Together, that would very well be possible. One of them alone? I seriously doubt it.
Maul can kill Kenobi on his own. The fact that he effortlessly TK'd Kenobi twice within that episode, and passed up a couple of opportunities to kill him (one, when he had Kenobi suspended in mid-air and just stares at him; and the other, when he knocks Kenobi senseless with a force push and decides to save his brother instead of finishing Kenobi), seems to suggest that Maul is quite capable of killing Kenobi on his own. Then you have to take under consideration that Maul, at that time, was still walking around with them awkward, bulky legs. Then there was the time when Kenobi and Ventress both were forced to flee from Maul and Savage, after admitting that they were outmatched by the brothers.
Originally posted by Nai
On both occassions, Savage was extremely pissed off and the Jedi were holding back, not even attempting to kill him.
I don't remember, but when was it stated that they weren't trying to kill Savage. It would seem stupid for them to hold back against an intimidating looking beast like Savage.
Originally posted by Nai
The second time they fought him, he had just put Ventress and Dooku down in a surge of anger, which indicates, that – in this "mode" – he can cause some trouble.
Agreed, but I believe the website says Savage grew more powerful since then. And he did manage to fight off both Anakin and Obi Wan on Toydaria, and if he only managed to best them because he was extremely pissed off as you're suggesting, then it must be very easy to piss him off, therefore I don't see how he wouldn't have a chance at besting Obi Wan alone if he is so easily pissed.
Originally posted by Nai
I recall Savage disarming Kenobi with brute strength, with Kenobi – seemingly – not even trying to defend himself with all he could at that point in time. And the latter fight? I don't recall Maul "stomping" Kenobi.
No, Kenobi did try to defend himself, although I think the initial attack was by surprise, but Kenobi still managed to parry a couple of blows before being disarmed.
And read above. The same episode where Savage disarms Kenobi, was the same episode where Kenobi and Ventress was forced to flee from Savage and Maul. Maul was stomping Kenobi pretty bad, despite having not touched a saber in over a decade.
Originally posted by Nai
You're quite wrong there. Dooku decides not to toy with Kenobi and Anakin together, since the Jedi combined are stronger than he thought he were. Then he takes Kenobi down. The plan to lose to Skywalker remained, as he didn't expect that Sidious would allow that he would be killed (which is clear from the RotS novel, and Sidious recollection of the scene in "The Essential Guide through the Force"😉
Dooku makes it quite clear that he was no longer holding back or taking any chances. There was no mention of him reverting back to the original plan of holding back and allowing Skywalker to win after he took Kenobi out. In fact, it wouldn't make any sense given that Skywalker started giving Dooku even more hell after Kenobi was taken out. Why would Dooku take any chances? That's just it: he didn't.
Also, what page in The Essential Guide to the Force? Not that it matters if it's only Sidious' recollection.
Originally posted by Nai
Applaus for the first part. The "consistent close" fights in TCW? While I recall Anakin flooring Dooku in their second confrontation during the fourth season in the series, Dooku almost casually disarms Anakin during their first fight. Not to mention, that the Sith Lord is vastly superior to Anakin, when it comes to force abilities.
Dooku's superior force mastery is what allowed Dooku to barely overcome Anakin in most of their fights throughout TCW. But Dooku's abilities were never vast enough to take Anakin out with any kind of ease. I recall a time Dooku used the aid of several magnaguards and prolonged use of force lightning, which left Dooku out of breath, just to knock Anakin unconscious. Their last fight in TCW series ended with Dooku barely beating Anakin with a blast of lightning, after being put on his ass and being throttled by Skywalker.
Originally posted by Nai
Charging into his office and chopping him into pieces would most certainly have made a difference.
Right. lol
And considering that Palpatine knew they were coming, he could have stood by the door and cut all four of them to pieces, and that would have definitely made a difference too. lmao
Originally posted by Nai
The point is, that they were expecting to arrest a politician that maybe was a Sith Lord.
They knew that they would likely be facing a sith lord whether they knew it was Palpatine or not. They knew a sith lord was manipulating the senate, and expected him to be someone close to Palpatine, which was why they were planning on drawing him out in the open. Then to top it off, Anakin, who was a close friend to Palpatine, outright told them Palpatine was a sith lord. They weren't clueless; they were well aware that there was a big chance of facing a sith lord, which is why they ignited their sabers the minute they demanded Palpatine's arrest. Not to mention Palpatine showed off his saber before he even leaped to attack.
Originally posted by Nai
And their previous experience with Sith Lords in combat (hint: zero) didn't allow them to be prepared for what was coming. Hence, their inability to even move, when Sidious comes flying (Mace aside).
Palpatine had no experience with a jedi, so therefore there should have been no casualties on the jedi side, right?
Whether they had experience or not, it all becomes irrelevant when Palpatine can slaughter them before they can react. They had plenty of sparring matches to know how to block a saber attacks. Let's stop with the reaching, and get over the fact that Sidious is one of the fastest force users in the entire mythos. Plus, I addressed all of this above.
Originally posted by Nai
No. The novel makes clear that from Anakin's view of the fight there seemed to be no Jedi restrained there. From Mace's point of view, we learn, that he is fighting on auto-pilot while attempting to find Sidious Shatterpoint. And, of course, we have the fact that refrains from killing Sidious, which – had there been no restraint left – he would probably have done initially.
All the evidence that suggest Sidious may have intentionally planned on losing to Windu is criticized and tossed out, yet you're suggesting that Windu was holding back and trying to defeat Sidious without killing him? Where is your evidence for this? The only thing I recall, is Windu searching for a shatterpoint because he knew he was unable to kill Sidious, because they were fighting as perfect equals. But nowhere is it mentioned that Windu was looking only for a non-lethal way to end the fight. It wouldn't make sense that Windu would murder Jango fett without caring about it, but yet he would hesitate on killing a sith lord in mid-combat, especially after the sith lord had just laid waste to three of his jedi friends and nearly overwhelmed him in the process. No, the only time Windu held back a killing blow, was when Sidious was seemingly defenseless on the floor.
Originally posted by Nai
Oh my.
I have explained now, multiple times, that there are different degrees of "mastery" in terms of lightsaber combat
And you haven't proved to what degree Sidious has mastered them, therefore I'm not interested in your opinion or what you'd like to believe. All I know is that you were giving a source that confirms Sidious is a master of all forms, which speaks of his technical skill, and on top of his force enhanced physicality, he is a saber beast.
Originally posted by Nai
In the TOTJ comics, Nomi Sunrider picks the lightsaber of her dead husband up to defend herself and her daughter from some thugs. The narration makes clear, that she "wields the weapon like a master".
Wow, sounds like a polite way of saying she was very good for a beginner. Obviously TCW episode guide was trying to place Palpatine on her level.
Originally posted by Nai
I'll give you two hints:
1) You're not the only person reading my posts.
2) There is a difference between acting stupid, being stupid on occassion and being a complete idiot worth of placing him on an ignore list.
It's none of those things and you know it. You're just a very competitive individual who does not like losing or being wrong. And in this argument, you are wrong plain and simple, and you're doing some serious reaching to try to win. On top of that, it bothers you even more that you're losing in a Sidious related debate.
As for this discussion, I'm done with it. I think I've proved my case quite well, while you're just arguing because you hate being wrong.
Originally posted by Nai
I neither have a "hate obsession" with Sidious
You continuously harp on my username. You complain and accuse me of arguing exclusively for Sidious, just to turn around and argue with me mostly on Sidious related topics. If that doesn't suggest some form of an extreme bias against the character, then Idk what does.
Originally posted by Nai
There is nothing to argue there, without extreme reaching on your part.
No, that debate just gets old.
^And if the argument from this guy is unable to convince people here, then I don't see how I can, because I couldn't put the argument any better.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Using two sabers, he was able to be more aggressive, but he was downed within a minute at most, same as Obi.
Dooku clearly toyed with Obi-Wan, hence the protracted engagement. I believe the script, the book, or LOE says Anakin proved to be a challenge.
I'll get back to you on that.