Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Sidious put himself at a tactical advantage by flying on top of a senate pod, which is something Yoda is capable of doing. Perhaps Sidious was just faster and superior in the area of TK, and it came easier for him to put himself in that position. They both showed signs of struggle during the lightning sequence, so still not seeing how that made Yoda superior.
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That is, this debate was covered in-length with scans, videos, and reason. The opposition has only brought forth unrealistic assertions and ignored valid evidence. Instead of rehashing, I'm just going to start reposting. Hell, Pyron actually admitted he liked Sidious more than Yoda, but that the evidence pointed against his favorite character. It's like my favorite Jedi of all time is Obi-Wan Kenobi. I can barely count the number of people Kenobi can take in a fair fight on one hand. There's nothing wrong with liking a character who isn't the best.
@SM, no I believe Yoda was the main cause of Sidious losing his balance by nearly forcing him off the edge of the podium, causing Sidious to drop his saber (according to the script). But would that have happened if Sidious had more room to give ground without there being any edges to nearly fall over? However, I'm not suggesting that Sidious is a better saber duelist than Yoda. I believe Yoda is a bit superior, but I do believe Yoda had the advantage on the podium, being able to utilize his acrobats and do circles around Sidious, while Sidious was limited in room to maneuver. I went over this with Nai.
Also, Sidious lifted three senate pods over his head simultaneously against gravity after ripping them from their restraints.
IMO, I believe ROTS Sidious and Yoda are equals in combat, and that more times than not, it would always result in a stalemate, with neither being able to defeat the other.
And I basically agreed that Yoda wouldn't have fallen several stories on even ground. What I'm say is, that I don't see how the blast would have scored Yoda a victory on even ground. All it would have done was blast them both apart, except Yoda wouldn't have fallen several stories.
And I'll read the link maybe later tonight.
So you admit Yoda is the better duelist, you're dancing around Yoda's superiority in the Force... How exactly is Sidious superior? Wait, no now you said they're equals, except when one is better.
It's okay, you can admit it to yourself, if not the rest of us that Sidious was outclassed. No one will think less of you.
My personal opinion is that despite appearing to dominate for much of the fight, Yoda was swiftly becoming tired and losing energy. Had the fight continued imo he would have flat out been crushed by Sidious' superior stamina.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He makes it perfectly clear that it's his opinion and not fact. I don't myself buy that he threw the Saber fight. I also don't buy that at base level Mace would get blitzed by Sidious. That's just absurd, considering he's at least on par with Count Dooku, who wasn't exactly blitzed by Yoda.
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Silver clearly has a lot of knowledge and sources and is good at writing essays that make your teeth hurt to try to respond to (like Nai) but I disagree with many of his interpretations.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That Palpatine was faking being weak with Lightning, and that his Lightning was actually "beyond Vapaad," according to the novel.
Well actually that one isn't true.
@SM, Yoda being a more skilled saber duelist doesn't mean he is a better overall combatant, especially considering that when he disarmed Sidious on the podium, Sidious was able to recover from nearly losing his balance and dropping his saber, and then retaliate with a blast of lightning, all before Yoda was able to finish him with his saber.
How would this be any different on even ground, especially since disarming Sidious would be harder, as Sidious wouldn't have an edge to nearly fall over and drop his saber as he did on the podium? And even if Yoda does disarm Sidious on even ground, Sidious can just as easy respond with a lightning attack just as he did on the podium.
Sidious demonstrated superior TK than Yoda, given that Yoda has the ability to fly atop of a pod just as Sidious can, so there's no reason for Sidious gaining the high ground before Yoda was able to, unless Sidious is superior with TK, and thus the move came easier/quicker for Sidious than it did for Yoda, which is probably why Sidious was quicker at doing it.
As for the lightning sequence, Yoda finished it by redirected it in a blast that blasted them both apart. Basically the same the would happen on even ground (except Yoda wouldn't be falling several stories), so tell me how Yoda would manage to win on even ground? Not saying that he's not capable of winning, but you seem to be suggesting that Yoda would win, and I'm asking you to explain how.
Also, I went over a lot of this with Nai. I'd appreciate if you read my argument and consider it just like I will get to your link later. Fair is fair.
Sidious demonstrated superior TK than Yoda, given that Yoda has the ability to fly atop of a pod just as Sidious can, so there's no reason for Sidious gaining the high ground before Yoda was able to, unless Sidious is superior with TK, and thus the move came easier/quicker for Sidious than it did for Yoda, which is probably why Sidious was quicker at doing it.
Yes, all while Sidious was standing there laughing, and then when Yoda redirected it, all Sidious did was stand there and stare without even attempting to catch it. And I don't see how Sidious choosing to evade it instead of catching it, means he is inferior.
Yoda struggled to catch it, and took a lot of concentration to redirect it, all while Sidious just stands there laughing his ass off. None of this suggests Yoda is superior in TK, other wise he should have gained the advantage of high ground before Sidious.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yes, all while Sidious was standing there laughing, and then when Yoda redirected it, all he did was stand there and stare without even attempting to catch it. And I don't see how Sidious choosing to evade it instead of catching it, means he is inferior.
The fact that he looked scared and did not even consider TKing it back tells us a lot. Or you can you know, ignore this evidence and apply your own opinion in place of it.
Yoda struggled to catch it, and took a lot of concentration to redirect it, all while Sidious just stands there laughing his ass off. None of this suggests Yoda is superior in TK, other wise he should have gained the advantage of high ground before Sidious.
Actually, Yoda stopped it on a dime, as it was coming down. He then took his time spinning it, presumably to build up momentum, and shot it up at Sids, who crapped his robes and jumped away. By the time he did this, Yoda was in his face.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You know, I kind of had a feeling that was KT who Silver owned in the comments of his blog, but the guy didn't seem as stupid. I guess that was KT at his best (which still wasn't good).
Actually I never responded to the blog at all.. I responded on this site after Tempest posted this link in another thread concerning this very fight. I argued with tempest about the validity of this guy's arguments. That is where I discussed them. Can't remember the thread but tempest prob remembers or somebody could find the thread. Point is you two clowns like to look smart and just end up looking dumb like usual. That said... his arguments are just as they were before... lacking a lot of substance. The ONLY thing that needs to be posted is Lucas himself stating in commentary and having Sidious speak the very words.. NO you will DIE.. Both of these crush ANY argument that Sids was trying the entire time. It's really that simple. Sidious himself says he's trying to kill Mace. That is all one needs... but I discussed this with tempest before and broke down other portions of it that make little to no sense. You guys act like he created and proved his point.. he did no such thing.. like literally at all.
Sidious66... Did Lucas not say Sidious was trying to kill Mace? Did sidious in the very movie in question say... No.. you will die as he fires his lighting at Mace... keep in mind..lighting so powerful that Mace could barely hold on.. and so powerful than he got deformed from. So you can't say it was some half ass lighting. Did Sidious utter those words
@SM, Sidious looked more surprised than scared. Looking scared would be the look he gave after he landed another pod, when he couldn't see Yoda anywhere in sight. Again, Sidious didn't even attempt to catch it. And I don't see why he couldn't if he tried, considering he was able to rip three senate pods from there restraints and hurl all three of them over his head at the same time. But of course you want me to believe Sidious couldn't because, to you, he looked scared. Hell, Yoda doesn't attempt to catch multiple pods that were thrown at him, but that doesn't mean he couldn't, considering that he manages to later on. Evading something that size, coming at great speed, is a lot easier than catching it and redirecting it, as it wouldn't require as much energy.
Yes, Yoda stopped it on the dime, but his facial expression suggests it was a struggle and wasn't easy, and that could also explain why it required Yoda so much time to redirect it, because it may have required him to use up a lot of energy to catch something that size coming at him at such speed, and he could have been gathering his energy. Or it could be, as you said, to spin it in order to build up momentum. Either way, I still don't see how Yoda requiring more concentration to redirect it from a worse position than it required for Sidious to easily throw one right after the other while holding others in mid air at the same time in a better position, makes Yoda the superior telekinetic. Unless you have some math formula or something to prove it. Furthermore as I said, if Yoda was superior in this area then why did Sidious manage to gain the high ground and rip the pods out as projectiles before Yoda managed to?
@KT, as Silver said, Windu did die, so what does Sidious saying "you will die" have to do with anything? And yes, Lucas explains how he always had Sidious trying to use his powers to kill Windu, but then he goes on to explain how he changed the sequence by adding in the part where Sidious pretends to be weak, which Sidious started pretending like mere seconds after his initial attack. So how is it that Sidious was actually trying to kill Windu while pretending to be weak at the same time? Was he trying his hardest for two seconds and then gave up. Certainly he can do better than that. The part with Sidious using his powers to attack Windu never changed, but the context of that particular scene did change when Lucas went in and added certain details. A lot of your questions are answered in that blog, which you choose to ignore.
And I'll get back to you guys later. Gotta go.
And to make myself more clear:
What I mean is, how can we determine which is more impressive: Sidious easily throwing multiple senate pods while, at the same time, holding up other pods in mid air, while in a better position; or, Yoda requiring a lot of concentration/seemingly struggling to catch and redirect just one, while in a worse position? How do we determine which is more impressive? Yes, I acknowledge that Sidious was in a better position, and thus threw many senate pods with ease, while Yoda was in a worse position, and was thus more hard pressed to catch and redirect just one. How can we determine which is more impressive unless we can come up with some math formula or something? Yoda couldn't be more impressive in that he threw one against gravity, seeing as Sidious hurled three over his head at the same time with ease. So the thing that made it harder for Yoda had to be catching it while being in a worse position.
Originally posted by psmith81992
Again, that doesn't demonstrate superior TK, but superior tactics. Superior TK was demonstrated by Yoda when he stopped a pod in mid flight against gravity and flung it back at Sidious, who was unable to stop it, with gravity on his side.
Sidious was Force juggling three pods against gravity when chucking them at Yoda.
Originally posted by psmith81992
You must have seen a different fight.
Apparently so did the authors of pretty much every single source on the subject ever published, none of which I'm aware remotely imply Yoda's superiority.
It all comes down to interpretation. Can't blame SIDIOUS_66 for siding with the interpretation literally enshrined in canon.
Originally posted by psmith81992
I saw Yoda catch one and send it back at Sidious, which Sidious couldn't stop.
Couldn't stop?
Originally posted by psmith81992
Then I saw him catch his lightning, cue the Sidious "O" face, and then the blast. It appears that Yoda was superior in that fight.
Why is it that every single time someone references Sidious's expressions, they neglect to mention Yoda's?
The only way I'd be interested in reading anyone's analysis of the fight is if he or she manages to not completely ignore moments of weakness or failure on the part of both fighters.
This thread hasn't seen one.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
The best part? You never once addressed my original analysis, nor has anyone else that consistently says Sidious was any measure better/won through skill versus fortune.
I read your analysis years ago. Your conclusion is that Yoda outclasses Sidious and would pwn him, which is one of the most outlandish remarks ever made by anyone ever.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
It's like people just... ignore evidence when it doesn't suit them and apply a different interpretation instead.
"Yoda outclasses Sidious and would pwn him"?
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The thread was nine pages long and Gideon addressed posts by you, Darkstar, and Nai on all nine. In fact, he had the last word. The idea that your argument was at all unaddressed is a lie.
That your analysis conveniently neglected the points that Yoda was either unconscious or in agony is enough to condemn it. It wasn't objective; why should I respect its conclusions?