The Greatest Foe the darkness had ever known...

Actually the script says:

'OBI-WAN uses the Force to catch his lightsaber and he tosses it to ANAKIN. With TWO LIGHTSABERS, ANAKIN attacks. COUNT DOOKU parries and ripostes. It is no contest. ANAKIN is driven back against the wall. He loses one lightsaber. Finally COUNT DOOKU, in one flashing move, sends Anakin's arm, cut at the elbow, flying still gripping his lightsaber. ANAKIN drops to the ground in agony. COUNT DOOKU draws himself up to deliver the coup de grace.'

The novel does suggest a tough fight though and in the movie he is out of breath after the duel. Novel:

'For the first time, Count Dooku lost his little confident smile. He had to work furiously to keep Anakin's blade at bay, dodging more than parrying. He tried to step out to the side, but stopped as if he had hit a wall, and his eyes widened a bit when he realized that this young Padawan, in the midst of that assault, had used the Force to block his exit.

"You have unusual powers, young Padawan," he sincerely congratulated. His little grin returned, and gradually Dooku put himself back on even footing with Anakin, trading thrust for slash and forcing Anakin to dodge and parry as often as he tried to strike.

"Unusual," Dooku said again. "But not enough to save you this time!" He came on hard, thinking to drive Anakin back and off balance as he had driven Obi-Wan back. But Anakin held his ground stubbornly, his green blade flashing left, right, and down so forcefully and precisely that none of Dooku's attacks got through.

Off to the side, Obi-Wan understood that it couldn't hold. Anakin was expending many times the energy of the efficient Dooku, and as soon as he tired...

Obi-Wan knew that he had to do something. He tried to come forward, but winced and fell back, in too much pain. As he collected his thoughts, he reached out with the Force instead, grabbing at his lightsaber and pulling it in to his grasp. "Anakin!" he called, and he tossed the young Padawan the blade. Anakin caught it without ever breaking the flow of his fighting, turning it under and igniting it immediately, putting it into the swirling flow.

Obi-Wan wat ched in admiration as Anakin worked the two blades in perfect harmony, spinning them over and about with blinding speed and precision.

And he watched with similar feelings the working of Count Dooku's red lightsaber, flashing ahead and back with equal precision, picking off attack after attack and even countering once or twice to interrupt the flow of Anakin's barrage.

Obi-Wan's heart leapt in hope as Anakin charged forward suddenly, bringing his green blade over his shoulder and across, down at the Count. Obi-Wan understood immediately, even before he noted Anakin's blue blade coming up and over the other way-the green blade would push the Count's lightsaber out of the way, clearing the path for the victorious strike!

But Dooku retracted impossibly fast, and Anakin's down-cutting green blade hit nothing but air.

Dooku stabbed straight ahead, intercepting the blue blade. The Count's hand worked up inside and over, then back around with a sudden twist, launching the blue lightsaber from Anakin's grasp. Dooku went on the offensive immediately, driving the surprised and off-balance Anakin back.

Anakin fought hard to regain his fighting posture, but Dooku was relentless, thrusting repeatedly, keeping the young Padawan stumbling backward. And then he stopped, suddenly, and almost on reflex, Anakin turned back on him, roaring and slashing hard.

"No!" Obi-Wan cried.

Dooku stabbed ahead and slashed out suddenly, intercepting not Anakin's green blade, but the Padawan's arm, at the elbow. Half of Anakin's arm flew to the side, his hand still gripping the lightsaber.

Anakin dropped to the ground, grabbing his severed arm in agony.'

Neph, why did you rob me of my diligence?

Good old Salvatore. So why is none of that in the movie? Wait, nevermind. It's a novelization. We only accept it as valid evidence when it supports someone's bias. Otherwise, it's non-G-canon rubbish at best.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Neph, why did you rob me of my diligence?

It was easy for me to look up and I like to be helpful.

Bless you, my son.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Just read the link, holy crap that guy knows his stuff.

He's made some interesting points. But I don't buy the "huge" gap in speed between Sidious and "base level" Mace. And still not sold on Sidious throwing the fight.

But I agree that it may well have been peak performance for Windu, and that Vapaad by its nature may allow for great potential under the right circumstances. But matching/defeating Sidious won't be the norm of his combat abilities. Seen as his confirmed superior in every way (Yoda) failed to defeat Sidious the one time they fought. And Yoda was clearly out for blood too.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He's made some interesting points. But I don't buy the "huge" gap in speed between Sidious and "base level" Mace. And still not sold on Sidious throwing the fight.

But I agree that it may well have been peak performance for Windu, and that Vapaad by its nature may allow for great potential under the right circumstances. But matching/defeating Sidious won't be the norm of his combat abilities. Seen as his confirmed superior in every way (Yoda) failed to defeat Sidious the one time they fought. And Yoda was clearly out for blood too.

Yeah he does.

There is nothing to be sold on in regards to sidoius throwing the fight.. this has been utterly trounced as a theory by me and others... Lucas himself STATES Sids was trying to kill Mace.. shit he has sidious himself in the higest form of canon say.. No.. YOU WILL DIE before he fires his lighting... There is no case for sids throwing the fight... none at all. There greater and overwhelming evidence points to him not throwing the fight. Period.

Read that link and responded to his arguments... the fail once again and don't come close to the evidence for him not throwing the fight. The highest from of canon and no. 1 source for canon confirms sids tried to kill mace.. nothing else needs to be said on the matter.

Absolut debating (tm).

You know, I kind of had a feeling that was KT who Silver owned in the comments of his blog, but the guy didn't seem as stupid. I guess that was KT at his best (which still wasn't good).

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Read that link and responded to his arguments... the fail once again and don't come close to the evidence for him not throwing the fight. The highest from of canon and no. 1 source for canon confirms sids tried to kill mace.. nothing else needs to be said on the matter.

He makes it perfectly clear that it's his opinion and not fact. I don't myself buy that he threw the Saber fight. I also don't buy that at base level Mace would get blitzed by Sidious. That's just absurd, considering he's at least on par with Count Dooku, who wasn't exactly blitzed by Yoda.

What he states as facts are these:

That it was a peak performance for Mace and not his norm.

That Palpatine was faking being weak with Lightning, and that his Lightning was actually "beyond Vapaad," according to the novel.

That Mace's superior in every way (Yoda) failed to defeat Palpatine, even though he was clearly out for blood, which is further evidence that Mace's victory was a circumstantial one and not the norm.

And I agree with him that all the above are facts and should be considered in before arguing in every thread "Mace wins, because Mace beat Palpatine!"

Oh and KT, in the final canon version, Sidious never says "You will die." Lucas changed the scene from that original one, to one where Sidious is faking being weak with his Lightning.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That Mace's superior in every way (Yoda) failed to defeat Palpatine, even though he was clearly out for blood, which is further evidence that Mace's victory was a circumstantial one and not the norm.

Sorry but Yoda's loss was circumstantial due to the arena. Prior to his disarming and fall, he was outdoing Sidious in every way that mattered. Sidious failed the saber fight, and he failed the Force battle. This can't be any more obvious, but people around here still insist that a loss is absolute proof of inferiority. Cuz you know, Obi-Wan beat Anakin. Therefore, Obi-Wan is superior to Anakin in all situations and all forms.

Sidious failed the saber fight because he lacked room to maneuver. The force fight had Sidious ripping several senate pods from their restraints, and nearly overwhelming Yoda with them, causing Yoda to lose his balance at one point. The last pod, Yoda struggled to catch and redirect. The lightning sequence began with Yoda struggling to contain it, and ended with him redirecting it in a blast that blasted them both apart. Though Yoda was blasted further due to his smaller size, while Sidious managed to hang on, I still don't see how the blast would have gave Yoda a one up on equal ground; all it would have done was blast them both apart, except Yoda wouldn't have fell at a greater distance. So I don't see how Yoda was superior.

Hoping you won't address that right away either. lol

But go ahead if you must.

Lol, just read KT's post on the blog.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Sidious failed the saber fight because he lacked room to maneuver. The force fight had Sidious ripping several senate pods from their restraints, and nearly overwhelming Yoda with them, causing Yoda to lose his balance at one point. The last pod, Yoda struggled to catch and redirect. The lightning sequence began with Yoda struggling to contain it, and ended with him redirecting it in a blast that blasted them both apart. Though Yoda was blasted further due to his smaller size, while Sidious managed to hang on, I still don't see how the blast would have gave Yoda a one up on equal ground; all it would have done was blast them both apart, except Yoda wouldn't have fell at a greater distance. So I don't see how Yoda was superior.

You must have seen a different fight. I give credit to Sidious for putting himself at a tactical advantage, that is to get higher than Yoda, and for throwing pods at him. I saw Yoda catch one and send it back at Sidious, which Sidious couldn't stop. Then I saw him catch his lightning, cue the Sidious "O" face, and then the blast. It appears that Yoda was superior in that fight.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Sidious failed the saber fight because he lacked room to maneuver.

Yoda was smaller, had less reach, and was ancient by comparison, yet he forced Sidious to virtually stand still in the office before they ascended into the Senate chamber, and on the pod he dominated the fight. And then Sidious was disarmed, unless you're a Sidious apologist in which case he deliberately put his saber away so that he could win the fight that would cost him his life.

The force fight had Sidious ripping several senate pods from their restraints, and nearly overwhelming Yoda with them, causing Yoda to lose his balance at one point. The last pod, Yoda struggled to catch and redirect.

Yoda evaded all the pods, and when he sent one moving up at Sidious, against gravity, Sidious did not counter with TK, but leapt away after making a fearful face. This does not imply dominance. Plus Sidious had gravity on his side and he didn't even attempt it.

The lightning sequence began with Yoda struggling to contain it, and ended with him redirecting it in a blast that blasted them both apart. Though Yoda was blasted further due to his smaller size, while Sidious managed to hang on, I still don't see how the blast would have gave Yoda a one up on equal ground; all it would have done was blast them both apart, except Yoda wouldn't have fell at a greater distance.

Sidious was completely unable to overcome Yoda when he had the advantage in this position. The initial blast took Yoda's saber from his hands and Yoda was barely hanging on to the ledge with his claws. Then, Yoda steels himself and overcomes the forward momentum of Sidious' lightning. Again, he came from behind and dominated in that Force exchange. On neutral ground, Yoda wouldn't have fallen several stories and been without his saber. Which meant that Sidious wouldn't have the advantage of grabbing a rail while his foe fell to his defeat.

So I don't see how Yoda was superior.

Okay, Sidious66. I understand your opinion. I've given you mine.

Sidious put himself at a tactical advantage by flying on top of a senate pod, which is something Yoda is capable of doing. Perhaps Sidious was just faster and superior in the area of TK, and it came easier for him to put himself in that position. They both showed signs of struggle during the lightning sequence, so still not seeing how that made Yoda superior.