Originally posted by The_Tempest
It wasn't objective; why should I respect its conclusions?
Spoke the guy who wrote this. I lol'd.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
@KT, as Silver said, Windu did die, so what does Sidious saying "you will die" have to do with anything? And yes, Lucas explains how he always had Sidious trying to use his powers to kill Windu, but then he goes on to explain how he changed the sequence by adding in the part where Sidious pretends to be weak, which Sidious started pretending like mere seconds after his initial attack. So how is it that Sidious was actually trying to kill Windu while pretending to be weak at the same time? Was he trying his hardest for two seconds and then gave up. Certainly he can do better than that. The part with Sidious using his powers to attack Windu never changed, but the context of that particular scene did change when Lucas went in and added certain details. A lot of your questions are answered in that blog, which you choose to ignore.
Lucas could have meant that Sidious faked his weakness AFTER his lightning was deflected back to him.
Or maybe he had to fake his weakness so that Anakin would SAVE him from Windu.
There is another interesting quote about the fight that is less known:
""The Jedi Master is WINNING when Anakin arrives, but Palpatine, as the scene has been rethought, now seizes the occasion to exaggerate his weakness. You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor."
--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 204 "
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66The problem with this theory is that it's trying to make the words mean something other than what is commonly meant by them. You agree with this right? Taking the nornally meaning of he was trying to kill windu and no you will die.. would mean he's tyring to kill Mace correct? Your view on the other hand requires reaching.. conjecture.. assuming your own conclusion.. just to come up with the conclusion you have about very basic words/sentence.
@SM, Sidious looked more surprised than scared. Looking scared would be the look he gave after he landed another pod, when he couldn't see Yoda anywhere in sight. Again, Sidious didn't even attempt to catch it. And I don't see why he couldn't if he tried, considering he was able to rip three senate pods from there restraints and hurl all three of them over his head at the same time. But of course you want me to believe Sidious couldn't because, to you, he looked scared. Hell, Yoda doesn't attempt to catch multiple pods that were thrown at him, but that doesn't mean he couldn't, considering that he manages to later on. Evading something that size, coming at great speed, is a lot easier than catching it and redirecting it, as it wouldn't require as much energy.Yes, Yoda stopped it on the dime, but his facial expression suggests it was a struggle and wasn't easy, and that could also explain why it required Yoda so much time to redirect it, because it may have required him to use up a lot of energy to catch something that size coming at him at such speed, and he could have been gathering his energy. Or it could be, as you said, to spin it in order to build up momentum. Either way, I still don't see how Yoda requiring more concentration to redirect it from a worse position than it required for Sidious to easily throw one right after the other while holding others in mid air at the same time in a better position, makes Yoda the superior telekinetic. Unless you have some math formula or something to prove it. Furthermore as I said, if Yoda was superior in this area then why did Sidious manage to gain the high ground and rip the pods out as projectiles before Yoda managed to?
@KT, as Silver said, Windu did die, so what does Sidious saying "you will die" have to do with anything? And yes, Lucas explains how he always had Sidious trying to use his powers to kill Windu, but then he goes on to explain how he changed the sequence by adding in the part where Sidious pretends to be weak, which Sidious started pretending like mere seconds after his initial attack. So how is it that Sidious was actually trying to kill Windu while pretending to be weak at the same time? Was he trying his hardest for two seconds and then gave up. Certainly he can do better than that. The part with Sidious using his powers to attack Windu never changed, but the context of that particular scene did change when Lucas went in and added certain details. A lot of your questions are answered in that blog, which you choose to ignore.
And I'll get back to you guys later. Gotta go.
Further, the reason this theory about Sids llighting being weak doesn't work is because we visibly see Mace struggling with it and to hold it saber away from his face.. we see the colorful narration in the book illustrating how difficult it was... we see Sidious is deformed by how powerful his lighting is being deflected back at him. In order for your theory to hold some water.. those things wouldn't be the case. It wouldn't be powerful lighting that is a struggle to overcome and hurts sidious... He would just send half ass lighting and feign being weak. That isn't what happened.. he says die.. and fires very powerful ligting. The clear presentation of this suggest not pretend lighting. What most likely happened.. is Sidous tried to kill Mace... realized he wasn't going to be able to as the lighting is being deflected back at him and hurting him.. so he decides to go to plan B.
Then we also have canon narration in the book describing sidious TRYING to kill Mace in the saber fight. I sincerly hope you're silly enough to claim even the saber fight was fake.. cause that would also go against narration in the book and go against what we saw in the films.
Point is, the evidence is clearly on the side of him not faking the entire fight and even most of the fight. There is no getting around this fact. One side has canon narration and words from the highest forms of canon... the other has very little evidence and required twisting and conjecture just to support its conclusion. There is no reaching or conjecture required to come to the conclusion sidious wasn't faking. There is just no getting around this fact. No amount of butt hurt sidious apologists can change this fact.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The problem with this theory is that it's trying to make the words mean something other than what is commonly meant by them. You agree with this right? Taking the nornally meaning of he was trying to kill windu and no you will die.. would mean he's tyring to kill Mace correct? Your view on the other hand requires reaching.. conjecture.. assuming your own conclusion.. just to come up with the conclusion you have about very basic words/sentence.Further, the reason this theory about Sids llighting being weak doesn't work is because we visibly see Mace struggling with it and to hold it saber away from his face.. we see the colorful narration in the book illustrating how difficult it was... we see Sidious is deformed by how powerful his lighting is being deflected back at him. In order for your theory to hold some water.. those things wouldn't be the case. It wouldn't be powerful lighting that is a struggle to overcome and hurts sidious... He would just send half ass lighting and feign being weak. That isn't what happened.. he says die.. and fires very powerful ligting. The clear presentation of this suggest not pretend lighting. What most likely happened.. is Sidous tried to kill Mace... realized he wasn't going to be able to as the lighting is being deflected back at him and hurting him.. so he decides to go to plan B.
Then we also have canon narration in the book describing sidious TRYING to kill Mace in the saber fight. I sincerly hope you're silly enough to claim even the saber fight was fake.. cause that would also go against narration in the book and go against what we saw in the films.
Point is, the evidence is clearly on the side of him not faking the entire fight and even most of the fight. There is no getting around this fact. One side has canon narration and words from the highest forms of canon... the other has very little evidence and required twisting and conjecture just to support its conclusion. There is no reaching or conjecture required to come to the conclusion sidious wasn't faking. There is just no getting around this fact. No amount of butt hurt sidious apologists can change this fact.
👆
Not saying there isn't Parity between sidious and yoda.. I believe there is... but I also believe yoda came across looking superior even if slightly. It was like a boxing match that ended in a draw.. obviously a draw signifies they were close in skills and performance.. but that doesn't mean most can't think one boxer looked more superior at times.
Originally posted by Nai
Spoke the guy who wrote this. I lol'd.
Originally posted by JediMaster97
But it wasn´t a win for Sidious. No matter what sources say. Both the film and the script show that it was a stalemale with Yoda actually coming close to win.
Originally posted by JediMaster97
But it wasn´t a win for Sidious. No matter what sources say. Both the film and the script show that it was a stalemale with Yoda actually coming close to win.
People are considering it a "win" because Yoda's purpose was killing Sidious, and in that he definitely failed. However, the idea that Sidious was better or directly equal to Yoda is ridiculous and clearly rebutted in everything but the vaguest reference materials, which themselves do not supercede canon.
And of course half of KMC is obsessed with this character and feels he is the best evah, so this debate will never be "settled".
If Yoda wad so close to winning them it makes no sense that he would never attempt to destroy Sidious again. So we can speculate about who looked superior, bu is just speculation. The facts are that the film showed a stalemate with Yoda fleeing confirming he failed and never to try again in fact thinking it was better to wait for Skywalkers kids to attempt it one day.
Originally posted by JediMaster97
Lucas could have meant that Sidious faked his weakness AFTER his lightning was deflected back to him.Or maybe he had to fake his weakness so that Anakin would SAVE him from Windu.
There is another interesting quote about the fight that is less known:
""The Jedi Master is WINNING when Anakin arrives, but Palpatine, as the scene has been rethought, now seizes the occasion to exaggerate his weakness. You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor."
--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 204 "
This I'll have to check when I get home. But if that's a second time he says"you have to be Mace or Yoda" then I may have to reconsider my stance that Mace is on par with Dooku and Anakin.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
If Yoda wad so close to winning them it makes no sense that he would never attempt to destroy Sidious again. So we can speculate about who looked superior, bu is just speculation. The facts are that the film showed a stalemate with Yoda fleeing confirming he failed and never to try again in fact thinking it was better to wait for Skywalkers kids to attempt it one day.
This has been addressed though. Yoda was at the very bottom of the senate chamber, he was for the first time saberless and far from his opponent. He would have to climb up, possibly dodging anything Sidious threw at him, then get in close and what? Dropkick Sidious? And we see immediately after this that troopers are on the way. Yoda's gambit was killing Sidious quickly, before he would be overcome. He was unable to do this due to circumstance. If they had not risen in the central pod into the senate chamber, the fight may have ended differently and more definitively, but applying the "he stopped fighting, ergo he could never beat him" is unreasonable. The situation dictated that his advantage was gone.
No one's saying Yoda is lightyears ahead of Sidious; both are top tier. What we're saying is that Yoda has an edge on Sidious in both departments, and the movie makes it quite clear that fortune and good tactical setting saved Sidious. I don't think it's a coincidence that the pod began rising; Sidious likely set that into motion in order to afford himself an escape route or high ground, because he knew that on even ground, Yoda was too much for him to handle.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
This I'll have to check when I get home. But if that's a second time he says"you have to be Mace or Yoda" then I may have to reconsider my stance that Mace is on par with Dooku and Anakin.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
This has been addressed though. Yoda was at the very bottom of the senate chamber, he was for the first time saberless and far from his opponent. He would have to climb up, possibly dodging anything Sidious threw at him, then get in close and what? [B]Dropkick Sidious? And we see immediately after this that troopers are on the way. Yoda's gambit was killing Sidious quickly, before he would be overcome. He was unable to do this due to circumstance. If they had not risen in the central pod into the senate chamber, the fight may have ended differently and more definitively, but applying the "he stopped fighting, ergo he could never beat him" is unreasonable. The situation dictated that his advantage was gone.No one's saying Yoda is lightyears ahead of Sidious; both are top tier. What we're saying is that Yoda has an edge on Sidious in both departments, and the movie makes it quite clear that fortune and good tactical setting saved Sidious. I don't think it's a coincidence that the pod began rising; Sidious likely set that into motion in order to afford himself an escape route or high ground, because he knew that on even ground, Yoda was too much for him to handle. [/B]
Yes
excellent
Originally posted by Intrepid37
But it wasn't a draw, KT. Numerous sources confirm Sidious' win.
All sources lower on the pole than the highest form of canon which...
1. Showed Sidious when both were fresh trying to run from yoda
2. Which showed yoda throwing Sids across the room... obvioulsy countered by Sids initial lighting attack
3. Which also had yoda disarming Sids in saber combat
4. Showed yoda overpowering Sids TK senate pod throw right back at him
5. lastly, which showed Sids starting with the edge in his lighting attack but CLEARLY shows Yoda was about to overpower him when he buckled down.. which the script confirms it appears he is doomed.
All those things mean more than random sources with much lower canon or quotes being taken out of context. Like one you've posted before of yoda saying he was bound to lose.. and he had lost before the fight started. Yet, we know that was taken out of context when used as he wasn't talking about the fight but how they Jedi had become complacement.. weak.. didn't grow.. and the sith had retooled themselves in the meantime. Then you have sources using lines like yoda failed to kill sidiuos.. and that gets twieted to mean Sidious won.. Failing to kill someone you intend to kill doesn't mean you lose the fight. I could cite numerous examples of this. So no intrepid you don't have numerous sources saying Sidious won and certainly not high canon sources.. if you do.. post them please.
When are people going ot understand something very simple.. failing in a mission doesn't mean you didn't look superior or were superior...
Holyfield said he was going to KO bowe in their second fight and if he didn't he failed... he didn't but still looked superior...
The vikings could say if they don't give AP the ball 30 times they aren't going to win and fail in their pre game goal.. Vikings could still win the game.
People also forget.. that this failing argument falls flat on its face when you rememer sidious tried to kill Yoda FIRST... he initiated the killing first and he FAILED. So when yoda confronted him to kill him... Sidious had already tried and failed.. and he also wanted Yoda dead.. so why didn't he jump down to kill yoda since it's confrimed he wanted to? He didn't.. so Yoda failing and leaving is the same as sidious failing to kill yoda and not pursuing him down there. That gets canclled out and we're left with Yoda looknig superior in the fight.