The Greatest Foe the darkness had ever known...

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
All sources lower on the pole than the highest form of canon which...

1. Showed Sidious when both were fresh trying to run from yoda

2. Which showed yoda throwing Sids across the room... obvioulsy countered by Sids initial lighting attack

3. Which also had yoda disarming Sids in saber combat

4. Showed yoda overpowering Sids TK senate pod throw right back at him

5. lastly, which showed Sids starting with the edge in his lighting attack but CLEARLY shows Yoda was about to overpower him when he buckled down.. which the script confirms it appears he is doomed.

All those things mean more than random sources with much lower canon or quotes being taken out of context. Like one you've posted before of yoda saying he was bound to lose.. and he had lost before the fight started. Yet, we know that was taken out of context when used as he wasn't talking about the fight but how they Jedi had become complacement.. weak.. didn't grow.. and the sith had retooled themselves in the meantime. Then you have sources using lines like yoda failed to kill sidiuos.. and that gets twieted to mean Sidious won.. Failing to kill someone you intend to kill doesn't mean you lose the fight. I could cite numerous examples of this. So no intrepid you don't have numerous sources saying Sidious won and certainly not high canon sources.. if you do.. post them please.

2. This has nothing to do with anything.

3. Which, again, does not render Sidious unable to win.

4. Overpowered? Dodging the pod was simply the easier than throwing it back.

5. And after that, Yoda gets sent on his ass.

As for the rest, no, I'm not going to dig around for all the sources confirming what I and others have claimed. Sourcebook mentions that Yoda himself felt ''outmatched'' and that ''he could not beat the most powerful Sith Lord in history''. All of your examples showcase moments when Yoda had the edge: none of which disregards the idea that Sidious won.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
1. Which does not render him unable to win. Sidious simply had more to lose: his whole new Empire. Of course, given that he knew he'd face someone of his own caliber, escaping would be most wise.

2. This has nothing to do with anything.

3. Which, again, does not render Sidious unable to win.

4. Overpowered? Dodging the pod was simply the easier than throwing it back.

5. And after that, Yoda gets sent on his ass.

As for the rest, no, I'm not going to dig around for all the sources confirming what I and others have claimed. Sourcebook mentions that Yoda himself felt ''outmatched'' and that ''he could not beat the most powerful Sith Lord in history''. All of your examples showcase moments when Yoda had the edge: none of which disregards the idea that Sidious won.

To clarify one thing, a "Jedi's strength flows from the Force". When it becomes easier to leap from one pod to another using the Force instead of you know, pushing down on a pod that's coming up at you against gravity, at which point do we acknowledge weakness?

Originally posted by Intrepid37
I just looked up pg 204, no such quote appears. The only one regarding Mace and the ''B-team'' is on pg. 205 which says ''You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor'', Lucas says. If Anakin hadn't got all beat-up, he could've beat the Emperor.''

The source seems to be based on the second part of the quote. You´re right.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
To clarify one thing, a "Jedi's strength flows from the Force". When it becomes easier to leap from one pod to another using the Force instead of you know, pushing down on a pod that's coming up at you against gravity, at which point do we acknowledge weakness?

And gotta go for now.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
We don't.

Alright, so let me reiterate this:

Sidious has the ability to raise three pods at a time. (I'm ignoring the question of whether or not their anti-gravs were used, since they do emit whirling sounds)

Sidious can send them crashing down with ease.

Yoda sends a pod back at him much slower against gravity. The assumption is that Yoda is exerting TK against it to keep it going, or put enough kinetic energy into it to make it continue despite air friction, gravity, etc.

Sidious looks panicked and jumps out of the way instead of TKing it.

At what point do you look at this and go "You know, Yoda stopped a downcoming pod on a dime, but Sidious didn't. CLEARLY IT IS BECAUSE THROWING HIS FRAIL WRINKLED BODY ACROSS TO ANOTHER POD VIA THE FORCE WAS EASIER THAN STOPPING THIS POD THAT SHOULD BY ALL RIGHTS BE EASIER TO STOP THAN HIS OWN!"

But... it totally was easier just to jump out of the way.

Not if he can casually lift three pods, it isn't. If you can move your hand and stop it on a dime, physically jumping away is pointless. You already have the higher ground, and your opponent is running out of places to hide.

No, it makes more sense for Sidious to stop the pod and throw it back or chuck it aside. What we get is this "OHSHITFAEC" and then he leaps out of the way, before looking around panicked.

Tell me how it makes more sense for Sidious to maneuver pods like a symphony conductor only seconds before, but suddenly he's unable to handle one coming back up at him much slower?

I'll give you three possible explanations:

1. Yoda's TK, being exerted behind the pod, was too strong to overcome, and jumping was easier. This implies Yoda was stronger in the Force, which reinforces what we see in the lightning battle.

2. Sidious was using TK to manipulate the antigrav systems of the pods to throw them at Yoda. Hence why they make whirling sounds and he's unable to withstand Yoda's more direct TK method.

3. A pod sodomized Sidious as a child and Yoda's attack sparked a flashback, which made him panic and flee.

The facts are.. that no source of higher canon says Sids won the fight.. and every source points to lines like.. Yoda failed to kill Sidious thus he lost.. as i've shown and established.. failing to kill someone doesn't mean you lost.. in which case sidous lost FIRST.. he tried to kill yoda first and failed... guess yoda is even more his superior using that line of logic.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Not if he can casually lift three pods, it isn't.

No, its still easier. Jumping is easier than manipulating a huge pod.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, its still easier. Jumping is easier than manipulating a huge pod.

So you're telling me that jumping out of the way is both easier and more convenient than say, moving your hand and TKing it?

Sidious throws pods casually.

He then raises some up for momentum before sending them forward. Three at a time. He's laughing, clearly at ease. Not strained.

He pumps his arms and more pods go flying.

@ 4:54, Yoda stops his last thrown pod instantly, it's momentum spent. He spins the pod, generating kinetic energy, and then sends it up slower than the attacking pods before.

Sidious stops laughing, makes a panicked face, and leaps out of the way. He's the same distance from the this pod as Yoda was when the latter stopped it on a dime. Furthermore, the pod coming at him was moving much slower, and against gravity.

He leaps down into another pod, and then looks around furtively.

Are you sure you think this is not in any way indicative of Sidious inability to casually TK a pod? After all, wasn't he just doing that to half a dozen pods before this exchange? Or was that antigrav doing all the work? You tell me what your theory is here.

This scene is being way over-analyzed. I think the scene was simply meant to show that the two are roughly equals, while giving both positive moments to avoid exactly what is going on here. The fact that there is this much debate shows how subjective it is. Anyone can watch it and draw whatever conclusions support their personal wants.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
So you're telling me that jumping out of the way is both easier and more convenient than say, moving your hand and TKing it?

Yes.

I can benchpress a tank. Someone throws a car at me. Is it easier to:

a) catch it

b) sidestep to the right.

(Hint: the answer is b)

Originally posted by oaa
This scene is being way over-analyzed. I think the scene was simply meant to show that the two are roughly equals, while giving both positive moments to avoid exactly what is going on here. The fact that there is this much debate shows how subjective it is. Anyone can watch it and draw whatever conclusions support their personal wants.

The entire purpose of this sub-forum is to analyze fights to support opinions on fictional battles. That's par for the course.

And second, anyone can form an opinion on anything; that's not something novel. But it takes a special kind of person to form a reasonable argument for doing so. I can say "The sun rising is a sign of God's goodwill to Man!" or I can say "the sun rising is a result of the rotation of the earth on its axis". One is more reasonable than the other and makes the fewest unsupported assertions.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes.

I can benchpress a tank. Someone throws a car at me. Is it easier to:

a) catch it

b) sidestep to the right.

(Hint: the answer is b)

This is a slippery dodge, Neph, and given how incredibly thorough you've been at analyzing other characters, this disappoints me that you refuse to be consistent here.

I want you to answer this question directly and thoughtfully:

IF you can TK pods as casually as you lift your arms, THEN would you leap DOWN into a pod that sacrifices some of your distance advantage when it would be easier to simply wave your hand and stop one?

The fact is that it is not as easy as lifting your arms. Force use appears to be effortless but there is no proof that it is because its ****ing invisible and mental. Stopping the pod would obviously have taken effort given how much it took Yoda to stop it. Furthermore, attempting to contest Yoda's attack would waste even more energy if Yoda attempts to press it, creating a Force tug of war with the pod. It makes much more sense to just dodge his attack and let him waste energy stopping the pod, spinning it and throwing it back with absolutely no effect since I just easily dodge it. Particularly since this is Yoda so letting him wear himself out is the best plan.

But yeah, keep trying to argue that Yoda's better than Sidious. I'm sure thats why he ran, right? And why he was constantly overpowering him with TK.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The fact is that it is not as easy as lifting your arms. Force use appears to be effortless but there is no proof that it is because its ****ing invisible and mental. Stopping the pod would obviously have taken effort given how much it took Yoda to stop it. Furthermore, attempting to contest Yoda's attack would waste even more energy if Yoda attempts to press it, creating a Force tug of war with the pod. It makes much more sense to just dodge his attack and let him waste energy stopping the pod, spinning it and throwing it back with absolutely no effect since I just easily dodge it. Particularly since this is Yoda so letting him wear himself out is the best plan.

But yeah, keep trying to argue that Yoda's better than Sidious. I'm sure thats why he ran, right? And why he was constantly overpowering him with TK.

Okay, so throwing multiple pods was clearly difficult, which is why Sidious had to focus very strongly and was clearly strained. But stopping one slow moving pod was definitely not out of his capabilities, he just wanted to sacrifice his higher ground and jump down closer to Yoda because it was easier.

Thank you for the clarification, bro. Hope ur not mad because I pinned you down over that one.

Errr Sidious tried to run first... not sure why sids apologist like to tout this point.. when Sids was the one running away when both were fresher... it's a good arguing style indeed.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Okay, so throwing multiple pods was clearly difficult, which is why Sidious had to focus very strongly and was clearly strained. But stopping one slow moving pod was definitely not out of his capabilities, he just wanted to sacrifice his higher ground and jump down closer to Yoda because it was easier.

Thank you for the clarification, bro. Hope ur not mad because I pinned you down over that one.

Sidious was manipulating the antigrav like you said.

I gotta agree with Janus. His logic is sound here.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
No one's saying Yoda is lightyears ahead of Sidious