Kenobi was on the verge of being overpowered until he got out of it by kicking Savage in his weakened knee. Besides, Kenobi was in a different position; he had both of his sabers combined and was pushing forward with everything he had. Sidious was standing right in between Maul and Savage and was pressing them back with one arm each in opposite directions.
And again I repeat, Obi-Wan has went through slugging matches with both Grievous and Anakin Skywalker. He's far more pressed than Sidious is with the brother's strength while in a much better position to hold them off. Sidious's force-enhanced strength is far above the likes of a guy who can have a slugging match with a cyborg Jedi Hunter. Exar's "holding a guy up with one arm!" and "crushing a holocron!" is all well and good, but it doesn't have Sidious beat.
To be honest I'm not sure comparing feats is the best way to determine physical strength, simply because overt feats of physical strength are something of a rarity, largely because they're for the most part either uneccessary or inferior to the other tools or weapons in a Jedi's arsenal (primarily TK), and where strength comes into play in regular Jedi action it's not particularly easy to quantify. I'd say comparing base attributes paints a far more accurate picture.
First off, I missed that one before:
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Kun's amulet is a pretty potent weapon, though I don't think it's going to charbroil Dooku. But like anything else, if he's tagged with it enough times, he's going to go down.
When Kun uses the amulet for the very first time, he projects beams with enough power to atomize several Massassi warriors with one strike, put huge holes into a pretty giant Sithwyrm and blow holes through those rather massive Yavin temple walls. What, pray tell, do you think the Count could do against that kind of power? Dodge that room-sized beams? Absorb / deflect that kind of energy?
And what could he offer himself in terms of offensive abilities? Force Lightning and telekinesis? Against Kun, who pretty much walked through a Sith Magic attack of Aleema Keto without even caring about it? Who tanked the most powerful lightside technique available and just got put on his ass by it for some seconds?
I really don't see how Dooku would walk out of a force fight with Kun.
I'm inclined to give the Count an advantage as a swordsman and telekinetic. But between Kun's raw potency, amulets, and greater Sith knowledge, I could be persuaded that he'd take a majority. It's gonna be tough, though.
While I agree with you on the swordsman part, as far as expertise is concerned, I can't say if that would be enough for Dooku to stand a chance against Kun. Apparently, Kun was the best swordsman the Jedi had produced in centuries, if his master has something to say about the issue, with others calling his skill with the weapon "unparalleled".
Yet, as if that wasn't enough, the guy constructs his own lightsaber design. And that, as I've said before, could very well catch Dooku completely off-guard. We're dealing with a short-hilted saber stuff here (unique), that Exar Kun wields one-handed (unique), with ambidextrous skill. As if that wasn't enough, he could adjust the length and intensity of his blades, enabling him to use them like a light-lances or make them pass through other lightsabers. So if the efficiency of precognition in combat declines, the more options your opponent has of utilizing his weapon, Kun is pretty much anathema to battle precog.
Starkiller decimates him in feats. I'd probably give it to Marek after a tough fight.
I can remember that a certain group of people did give free lessons on why "feat wars" does suck as basis for rational arguments. Apparently, somebody wasn't listening.
Use of the adverb "once" indicates that he was formerly the strongest Sith, suggesting he has been surpassed in the intervening years.
No. That indicates that he doesn't breath any longer. He isn't the most powerful Sith Lord any longer, because he no longer lives. Unless you want to suggest that somebody cleared his record of evil, too, given how he "was" responsible for the deaths of millions but "is", following your interpretation, no longer. 😉
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
It's not. But simply the fact that PT Jedi, on average, perform very badly against pretty much any Sith you put them against. Their track record is relatively poor. Comparatively, Sith are always implied as more powerful; they seek power and they strive to master and kill. That's a given. What's contested here is the level of their opponents. With the exception of the very top tier, Jedi of the PT era are mere fodder. Meanwhile, Jedi of previous eras are shown to be better in this regard. They fight off the Sith, over wars spanning years, and in some cases vanquish them utterly (see the Hyperspace Wars).
The thing is, the few sith that any jedi did face in the PT era were all very skilled powerhouses, so yeah, obviously it would require high tier jedi to contend with them. As you said, sith are implied to be more powerful, as they seek it and strive for it, not to mention the dark side is a much quicker path to reaching one's potential, so the average sith are most likely to be better than the average jedi. But the thing is, none of the PT era sith are average.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Even if I thought Kun was marginally inferior to Maul (which nothing implies as such), his raw Force power and ridiculous range of powers says that pure saber technique will not be decisive here, for the same reason why Dooku doesn't have to trade blows with Obi-Wan except for his amusement.
Kun, IMO, would defeat Maul on account of having a far larger range of powers that Maul may not have an answer to. But I haven't seen anything to suggest that Kun's raw power is far greater than Maul's, it's just that Kun manifests his raw power mainly in the form of sorcery, whereas Maul manifests his power in the form of basic powers such as TK--being able to pull a starship off a cliff, rag-doll Obi Wan with the force almost as easily as Dooku can, collapse cave ceilings, etc.
The point I was trying to get at here, is that the same reason Kun is head over everyone of his era, is the same reason Maul is better than most jedi of his era: more power, and better skill. It couldn't be because the PT jedi era lack the experience with sith, because Maul also lacked much experience with jedi.
Tiin's and Kolar's quick slaughter at the hands of Palpatine owed more to a speed disparity. Skill and experience becomes irrelevant when someone's speed is too great to defend against. Experience is a big deal, no doubt, but it's not everything. After all, Sidious was less experienced than all four of the jedi he threw himself up against. Before his first fight in ROTS, the only force using opponents that Sidious faced who were actually trying to kill him were Maul and Savage, both of whom happened to be more experienced than Sidious as well.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I've read the book twice, and that passage notes that Kit Fisto was downed within a few moves. The whole point was to establish Ventress as a legitimate threat to the Jedi, since earlier in the book Kit Fisto had destroyed a "Jedi Killer" bot with ease and non-lethally staged a fight with agility and mastery that even Obi-Wan felt he couldn't replicate. The fact that he is one of the Order's premiere badasses going into the Clone Wars and he was so easily destroyed says a lot.Actually, if you read the chapter again, you'll note that Ventress analyzed Kit's fighting style quickly by watching him fight through her thugs, and then quickly incapacitated him. Let's put this into proper perspective:
Now, finally, Kit drew his lightsaber. Ventress drew a pair of blazing, red blades. She inclined her head, breathing more quickly, lips curling into a smile.
"Finally," she said.
"Your pleasure," Kit hissed, and went at her. He was like fire, Ventress like smoke. The dance had substance but not form, a blur of light that seemed impossibly fast, unbelievably deadly. The two leapt and swerved, collided and bounced away. Single against double light-blades. Hands, knees, feet, all in a mind-numbing blur.
This part of the passage does not suggest she downed him in a couple of moves. The fight lacks detail, but the hyperbolic description seemingly suggests they were both fighting pretty good and were both holding their own.
Then the focus switches to Kenobi:
Obi-Wan would have given his right hand to join. Or even to watch such a display. But he had his own worries, his own battle to fight. He struggled with the urge to simply draw his lightsaber and slaughter
the X'Ting. His enemies came on and on, struck quickly but clumsily, got in each other's way. Obi-Wan was direct in attack, and as elusive as a
breeze. He'd missed the engagement, but suddenly-Kit was down! Wounded and groggy from a kick in the jaw, for the first time Ventress had pierced his guard.
This part we have Kenobi getting impatient and even considers slaughtering the thugs with his blade in order to help Fisto, which suggest that Fisto's duel with Ventress wasn't a blitz nor was it one that ended in a couple of moves.
"for the first time Ventress had pierced his guard" <-- This statement wouldn't make much sense in this context if it only took Ventress a couple of moves to down Fisto.
Kit's loss to Ventress was a decisive victory for Ventress, but as you said, Ventress was studying Fisto's moves as he was fighting through her minions, which would logically give her an advantage; maybe not a huge advantage but an advantage nonetheless. Not to mention Ventress is shown to be a prodigy; her TK is pretty beastly (in a fit of rage, she force chokes both Anakin and Kenobi at the same time), her force enhanced physicality is impressive, so she has tremendous raw power and skill. She started her training in jedi arts as a child under a jedi mentor, and continued her self training after her jedi mentor was murdered. Upon being discovered by Dooku, her powers and skill increased by his training, and as we all know joining the dark side is a quicker path to reaching ones potential. No, Ventress wasn't a sith by title, but this doesn't make every dark sider labeled "sith lords" greater than her, as we find out in TCW series that Dooku was training her as a sith apprentice to eventually help him overthrow Sidious. So Kit's loss to Ventress doesn't mean he isn't very good, especially considering Ventress had somewhat of an advantage over him in that particular duel.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I don't want people to rampantly assume that PT Jedi r teh win, given the evidence pointing otherwise. Then there's lack of common sense considering the Jedi don't practice Makashi to the extent they did in the previous Wars, they haven't fought Sith in a thousand years, and they were barely prepared for droids at Genosis.
Well defending against numerous droids that are opening fire all at once while starting out from a distance, is different than saber to saber combat.
That Makashi bit seems to be the only thing hurting the pro-PT argument. But we do have Yoda seemingly implying that the jedi had spent all those years training to refight the last war, and that the new sith could not be destroyed with a saber (I know it's hyperbole, obviously Palpatine's body is not saber proof, but the implication is that they were prepared to go saber to saber with sith). Then as Tempest brought out, Luke refers to the PT era as the jedi at their "most powerful" (Book of the Sith). We also have examples of jedi having sparring matches with each other, and obviously sparring matches aren't meant to hone their abilities in blocking blaster bolts. There have been several jedi who were able to hold their own with Greivous--a cyborg equipped with superhuman speed and reflexes, armed with multiple sabers that he can utilize in ways that a human/humanoid cannot. Not to mention that Grievous is a master of multiple forms, and has a computer chip that allows him quickly adapt to the fighting style of his opponents within a few exchanges. So any jedi that can go toe to toe with GG in a saber duel speaks of their ability to adapt as well, especially in Fisto's case who practically dog walked Grievous while seemingly toying with the General. Then we have Luminara who can recognize the fighting style of Count Dooku after just a few exchanges, and then proceeds to hold her own against Ventress ("Cloak of Darkness"😉.
So with all these examples, implications and quotes along with Lucas referring to the PT jedi as the jedi in their prime (I'll get to your argument on that likely later tonight), I don't think the PT era jedi were meant to be portrayed as lacking in saber expertise.
@Nai, I thought you said that the sources that labeled any sith as being the most powerful were all fallible?
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Then as Tempest brought out, Luke refers to the PT era as the jedi at their "most powerful" (Book of the Sith).
Whch doesn't make sense, since Plagueis has established that they were likely at their least powerful at the time since the Force was literally bent towards the dark side. How could they be the most powerful when the Force is unbalanced out of their favor during their era, something no other era can claim?
If you're interpretation is correct, then just imagine how powerful Yoda would be if the force wasn't imbalanced. I mean, he had the speed, strength and precognition to go toe to toe with Sidious. He has some of the greatest TK feats in the mythos.
As far as I know, the imbalance has only been confirmed to affect their farsight abilities, which BTW, Yoda was still among the most gifted jedi with farsight in the entire mythos, despite the force being imbalanced. So what are you suggesting here? That they'd be that much more powerful had the force not been out of balance? You're ignoring their accomplished feats and saying, "no that can't be because the force was out of balance."