Exar Kun vs Dooku

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Neph, the point of the prequels was that the jedi were actually well prepared to do direct battle with the sith, they just weren't prepared to be politically out-smarted by one.

No, it was that the Jedi Order was out of touch and stagnant, which is why they failed to stop so many worlds from seceding, failed to stop the machinations of the Sith, failed to stop public opinion from turning against them, failed to stop their order from being extinguished by Order 66 and failed to stop the rise of Darth Vader.

There's no themetic point that indicates the Jedi were supposed to be militarily proficient but politically weak. In fact the opposite is true. The Jedi had their connection to the Force blunted and sources indicate that due to the lack of lightsaber wielding opponents the Jedi moved away from lightsaber combat and towards forms suited to dealing with blasters or that were easy to learn (Soresu and Niman). The Jedi are shown to be inferior to the Sith in battle, so I don't see where you are getting that from. Maul fights two Jedi at once and Obi-Wan only kills him through luck. As does Dooku beat two Jedi at once, only being defeated by Yoda and DarkSide Anakin. Yoda loses to Sidious. The thing that really cinches the idea that the PT Jedi were supposed to suck though is the Geonosis battle were they get cut to pieces by mere droids. We see there that despite your claims the Jedi are not militarily uber.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The idea that the PT era was the prime of the jedi order is not retarded. Yoda makes it very clear in the ROTS novel that they had spent all those years hardening themselves to do battle.

Which is entirely contradicted by the sources indicating that the Jedi had moved away from learning strict lightsaber dueling forms.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
There are other eras that have more experience in actually fighting sith, but this does not automatically make them better.

The concept is more logical than that an order almost solely fighting droids and blasters would be the best at lightsaber fighting.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
For example, even in RL, a person who grew-up fighting a lot can lose to someone who has never been in an actual fist fight but has been trained harder to fight.

Which, again, is contradicted by the fact that the PT Jedi trained to fight blasters, not lightsabers. Makashi was a rare form for a reason.

Nephthys
No, it was that the Jedi Order was out of touch and stagnant, which is why they failed to stop so many worlds from seceding, failed to stop the machinations of the Sith, failed to stop public opinion from turning against them, failed to stop their order from being extinguished by Order 66 and failed to stop the rise of Darth Vader.

And none of that owes to weakness as swordsmen.

I didn't say it did. I was correcting Sidious 66 on what the "theme" of the prequels was. Nothing indicates that the Jedi were supposed to be amazing fighters in the movies.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I didn't say it did. I was correcting Sidious 66 on what the "theme" of the prequels was.

You didn't really correct him, though. His interpretation of the prequels' theme is commensurate with Lucas and a number of EU sources. The Jedi were absolutely failures in the prequels... but their skill with a lightsaber had little to do with it. They were conquered through deception and manipulation, not outright force.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nothing indicates that the Jedi were supposed to be amazing fighters in the movies.

Well, nothing except for George claiming that the prequels were the prime of the Jedi. Twice.

The Jedi were not failures. Sidious just outsmarted them. Speaks for Sidious imo rather then the Jedi.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You didn't really correct him, though. His interpretation of the prequels' theme is commensurate with Lucas and a number of EU sources. The Jedi were absolutely failures in the prequels... but their skill with a lightsaber had little to do with it. They were conquered through deception and manipulation, not outright force.

He said that the 'point' of the prequels was that the Jedi were supposed to be very well prepared to directly fight the Sith. This is not true, and I was saying what I believe was the actual 'point' of the Jedi Orders depiction in the movies, which has nothing to do with them being good at fighting.

Originally posted by ROTJ Vader
The Jedi were not failures. Sidious just outsmarted them. Speaks for Sidious imo rather then the Jedi.

Meh. I think the PT is, at it's heart, a tragedy. And not just Anakin's. The Jedi mishandled everything: their blind loyalty to the Republic, their mistreatment of Anakin, their political game with Palpatine, etc.

They're not stupid, but they did fail. And on many levels.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He said that the 'point' of the prequels was that the Jedi were supposed to be very well prepared to directly fight the Sith. This is not true, and I was saying what I believe was the actual 'point' of the Jedi Orders depiction in the movies, which has nothing to do with them being good at fighting.

Actually, it is true, which is why the Palpatine doesn't conquer the Jedi barehanded and through naked force. That Maul, Dooku, Sidious, and Vader all manage to beat plenty of them doesn't change that. I mean, hell, plenty of Sith kill Jedi in TOR; does that mean that the Jedi of that era were ill-equipped or prepared to kill Sith? No.

Oh really, please show me a scene where this is hinted at or explained in the movies. Because no, the Jedi are not depicted as amazing combatants in the movies. I fact, if Sidious had not supplied the clone army, the Seps would have annihilated the Jedi and the Republic, starting on Geonosis where the Jedi are shown to be fvcked in a direct confrontation with the droids.

The Jedi in TOR are beating the Sith.

I definitely have a problem with "prime of the jedi" referring to combat prowess, since the sith have been gone for close to 1,000 years.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh really, please show me a scene where this is hinted at or explained in the movies. Because no, the Jedi are not depicted as amazing combatants in the movies.

According to whom?

By this logic, TOR-era Sith must be similarly unimpressive since they're rugby tackled by random mooks.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I fact, if Sidious had not supplied the clone army, the Seps would have annihilated the Jedi and the Republic, starting on Geonosis where the Jedi are shown to be fvcked.

That the Jedi would have lost to the amassed ranks of the CIS does not preclude the idea that they are amazing combatants.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The Jedi in TOR are beating the Sith.

But the Jedi do lose to Sith, do they not? By your logic, they must be ill-equipped to contend with the Sith simply by virtue of the fact that they lose battles.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
According to whom?

By this logic, TOR-era Sith must be similarly unimpressive since they're rugby tackled by random mooks.

According to no-one. I don't have to prove that they were not shown to be shown so, you have to prove that they were if you want to argue that. I can't recall any scene which would indicate the Jedi were being presented as that impressive a fighting force.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
That the Jedi would have lost to the amassed ranks of the CIS does not preclude the idea that they are amazing combatants.

It sure doesn't support the idea that they were though! And it does imply that they were sub-par. When you show someone losing, the general implication is that they're losers, not winners.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
But the Jedi do lose to Sith, do they not? By your logic, they must be ill-equipped to contend with the Sith simply by virtue of the fact that they lose battles.

No, since my logic is that the Jedi are primarily shown to lose. In a movie, you have to pick your scenes carefully due to limited screen time. By showing the Jedi as being primarily inferior and as not standing out, those ideas are conveyed to the audience.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't know. What does that mean?

It means the TOR era's Jedi Order consists of millions, while the PT Jedi Order, ten-thousand sharp.

And what does that mean (other than that the TOR order was leagues superior to the PT one, of course)?

Originally posted by Nephthys
According to no-one. I don't have to prove that they were not shown to be shown so, you have to prove that they were if you want to argue that. I can't recall any scene which would indicate the Jedi were being presented as that impressive a fighting force.

I'd say the fact that they manage to kill as many droids as they do is highly impressive.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It sure doesn't support the idea that they were though! And it does imply that they were sub-par. When you show someone losing, the general implication is that they're losers, not winners.

Only if we think superficially. By your logic, the fact that the Persians killed all the Spartans in 300 means that the Spartans were sub-par warriors.

That the Jedi would have been defeated by a combination of great technology, overwhelming numbers and firepower does not preclude the fact that they are great warriors.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, since my logic is that the Jedi are primarily shown to lose. In a movie, you have to pick your scenes carefully due to limited screen time. By showing the Jedi as being primarily inferior and as not standing out, those ideas are conveyed to the audience.

The Empire is primarily shown to lose in the OT. I guess they're primarily inferior and mediocre in general?

The Jedi are "primarily shown to lose" because this is a film series in which they lose. The fact that they lose does not mean they're bad warriors.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'd say the fact that they manage to kill as many droids as they do is highly impressive.

The gungans killed more. :T

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Only if we think superficially. By your logic, the fact that the Persians killed all the Spartans in 300 means that the Spartans were sub-par warriors.

That the Jedi would have been defeated by a combination of great technology, overwhelming numbers and firepower does not preclude the fact that they are great warriors.

And if that were all we were shown I would agree. Except we have a whole movie in which the Spartans slaughter the Persians and they achieve their primary goal in the end. In contrast we have the Jedi getting buttfcked from all sides and Coleman Trevor getting killed by Jango Fett.

I did not say it precludes it. It can still be the case. But it certainly does not indicate it. So far you haven't shown anything backing up the idea that the Jedi were depicted as uber warriors in the PT. As to the scene, what I am saying is that it paints a picture of them not being great warriors. Going off that scene the Jedi come out as looking unimpressive considering how shit those droids were depicted as and the fact that 1 or 2 Jedi are supposed to be above entire squads of droids. They can still be great, but they are not depicted as such in that scene.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The Empire is primarily shown to lose in the OT. I guess they're primarily inferior and mediocre in general?

The Jedi are "primarily shown to lose" because this is a film series in which they lose. The fact that they lose does not mean they're bad warriors.

Uh, yes? You do know where the phrase 'Stormtrooper accuracy' comes from, right?

I'm not saying it means it, I'm saying it implies it more than it is implied that they were awesome, which they were not.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The gungans killed more. :T

Where?

Originally posted by Nephthys
And if that were all we were shown I would agree. Except we have a whole movie in which the Spartans slaughter the Persians and they achieve their primary goal in the end. In contrast we have the Jedi getting buttfcked from all sides and Coleman Trevor getting killed by Jango Fett.

But that's not what you said. You said that when you show someone losing, the implication is that they're losers, not winners. Since the original 300 Spartans died, they're clearly sub-par combatants.

And we saw the Jedi mow down plenty of droids before dying. Given that you constantly credit Jace's tackling of various fully trained Sith Lords to his skill rather than their lack of it, why on earth should I accept Trebor's death at Jango's hands as anything else?

Originally posted by Nephthys
I did not say it precludes it. It can still be the case. But it certainly does not indicate it. So far you haven't shown anything backing up the idea that the Jedi were depicted as uber warriors in the PT. As to the scene, what I am saying is that it paints a picture of them not being great warriors. Going off that scene the Jedi come out as looking unimpressive considering how shit those droids were depicted as and the fact that 1 or 2 Jedi are supposed to be above entire squads of droids. They can still be great, but they are not depicted as such in that scene.

The Jedi perform quite well in the movies. The fact that they were going to probably die at the hands of Dooku's legions of droids doesn't suggest that they're sub-par warriors.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Uh, yes? You do know where the phrase 'Stormtrooper accuracy' comes from, right?

They must have inherited it from the Sith troops who attack during TOR's "Return" trailer. That bounty hunter walked right into their line of fire and smoked them all.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm not saying it means it, I'm saying it implies it more than it is implied that they were awesome, which they were not.

All that is implied is that the Jedi aren't invulnerable. Which they aren't. But subpar warriors? Nah.

The fact is, the Jedi were shown to lose to the droids and would have all died if not for Sidious bailing them out with the clones.

Martially prepared to fight the Sith my ass.

The same sith who could also be killed by fodder soldiers 😉

Originally posted by Nephthys
The fact is, the Jedi were shown to lose to the droids and would have all died if not for Sidious bailing them out with the clones.

Martially prepared to fight the Sith my ass.

The fact is, that the Jedi were shown to lose to the droids and would have all died if not for Sidious bailing them out with the clones doesn't preclude the notion that they were martially prepared to fight the Sith and your ass.