Exar Kun vs Dooku

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Where?

TPM. 😬

Originally posted by The_Tempest
But that's not what you said. You said that when you show someone losing, the implication is that they're losers, not winners. Since the original 300 Spartans died, they're clearly sub-par combatants.

And we saw the Jedi mow down plenty of droids before dying. Given that you constantly credit Jace's tackling of various fully trained Sith Lords to his skill rather than their lack of it, why on earth should I accept Trebor's death at Jango's hands as anything else?

Implication, yes. Which can be counteracted by the Spartans factually being shown to be ****ing badasses who anally raped the Persians for like a solid hour of movie. This was not shown in AotC. The Jedi got pwned by inferior troops through their own ineptitude.

Not really. They don't do that well. What, was Jango timing the shots through skill? Was he pulling the trigger faster than Trebor could keep up with? 😖nort:

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The Jedi perform quite well in the movies. The fact that they were going to probably die at the hands of Dooku's legions of droids doesn't suggest that they're sub-par warriors.

And again, it doesn't suggest they were good either, which is what I said.

You said the Jedi were shown to be too strong to be defeated through force of arms, which is why Palps did it through deception. This was specifically shown to not be the case.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
They must have inherited it from the Sith troops who attack during TOR's "Return" trailer. That bounty hunter walked right into their line of fire and smoked them all.

That wasn't a bounty hunter.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
All that is implied is that the Jedi aren't invulnerable. Which they aren't. But subpar warriors? Nah.

False, it does imply them to be subpar warriors. Tactically they made and insane and arrogant attack, somehow not seeing the legions of droids surrounding the building they all grouped up in and ran right to the center of. Their defeat was a product of idiocy and overconfidence. Furthermore, the fact is that the droids were depicted as incompetent weaklings throughout all 3 movies. Them losing to an army of them paints the Jedi as utter jokes. A fighting force beaten by comic relief is not one we're supposed to see as impressive.

Originally posted by Nephthys
TPM. 😬

Who says they kill more?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Implication, yes. Which can be counteracted by the Spartans factually being shown to be ****ing badasses who anally raped the Persians for like a solid hour of movie. This was not shown in AotC. The Jedi got pwned by inferior troops through their own ineptitude.

Not really. They don't do that well. What, was Jango timing the shots through skill? Was he pulling the trigger faster than Trebor could keep up with? 😖nort:

They do quite well given how terribly they're outnumbered and outgunned.

Nephthys
And again, it doesn't suggest they were good either, which is what I said.

You said the Jedi were shown to be too strong to be defeated through force of arms, which is why Palps did it through deception. This was specifically shown to not be the case.

False, sir. I said that the Jedi were prepared to fight the Sith, which is why Palpatine defeated them through deception. I never said they could win every fight against any enemy. They're clearly not unbeatable.

Nephthys
That wasn't a bounty hunter.

Ok.

Nephthys
False, it does imply them to be subpar warriors. Tactically they made and insane and arrogant attack, somehow not seeing the legions of droids surrounding the building they all grouped up in and ran right to the center of. Their defeat was a product of idiocy and overconfidence. Furthermore, the fact is that the droids were depicted as incompetent weaklings throughout all 3 movies. Them losing to an army of them paints the Jedi as utter jokes. A fighting force beaten by comic relief is not one we're supposed to see as impressive.

I never claimed that their decision was a tactically sound one (it wasn't). Still doesn't preclude the notion that they are excellent fighters.

Yup, everything Temp said.

I can't address you point by point at the moment, Neph, but I don't really see why I should. You haven't properly addressed mines. All you're doing is repeating the same argument, that they aren't as good because they lack experience in actually fighting sith, and ignoring my example on how experience doesn't automatically mean better.

I don't expect you to get to every single point, but at least get to the ones that matter. You're just arguing because you don't like the idea of the PT era being the best, which is fine if you don't like it, but you haven't exactly pointed out how Lucas' labeling the PT era as the prime is contradicting. Being taken by surprise, or being heavily outnumbered doesn't contradict anything.

He's just a big fathead.

Erm, I very much did respond to your points and did not ignore your example. I pointed out that your example is flawed because the Jedi were not training to fight lightsabers. You argued they could be superior due to training more, an entirely faulty argument because they were not training as much in the area we are discussing, lightsaber combat. In fact, due to having to, you know, actually ****ing do lightsaber fighting, I'd argue that the TOR era would train considerably more in that area than the PT era, who as I said, were noted to NOT BE TRAINING IN FORMS DEDICATED TO LIGHTSABER COMBAT. <--- bolded so you don't miss it this time.

I am not arguing it just because I don't like it. That accusation offends me. I'm arguing it because it makes logical sense.

According to Yoda they were training to fight lightsabers. They're sparring matches also suggest it. Do you have a source that says they weren't training? Or are you just going by what you didn't see onscreen?

And yes we are talking about lightsaber to lightsaber combat, so why are you comparing that to defending against numerous droids opening fire all at at?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
According to Yoda they were training to fight lightsabers. They're sparring matches also suggest it. Do you have a source that says they weren't training? Or are you just going by what you didn't see onscreen?

And yes we are talking about lightsaber to lightsaber combat, so why are you comparing that to defending against numerous droids opening fire all at at?

That isn't what Yoda says, and he could easily be exaggerating in what he actually did say (something about preparing for the final fight or whatever).

"After all, the only form in which he was truly even proficient was Soresu, which was the most common lightsaber form in the Jedi Order. Founded upon the basic deflection principles all Padawans were taught-to enable them to protect themselves from blaster bolts-Soresu was very simple, and so restrained and defense-oriented that it was very nearly downright passive." - RotS novel. Indicating Soresu is the most common lightsaber form.

"Fewer padawans have elected to study form II in the years following the battle of Ruusan, because the odds of encountering a lightsaber wielding enemy is now close to zero." - The Jedi Path. By the time of the PT Makashi was extremely rare for this reason.

Moose also mentioned that Niman was widely used. I think this all paints a clear picture myself. Jedi were not electing to study the form focused on lightsaber combat and instead the two forms least aligned towards it were the most widespread. That Soresu was more common even than Shii Cho speaks volumes about where their focuses lay imo.

It was a tangential discussion with Tempest about their portrayal etc.

The quote from The Jedi Path is the only one that is helping your argument.

As for what Yoda said, I don't remember word for word what he said and I don't have access to the novel at the moment, but I'm pretty sure Yoda stated pretty clearly that they were training re-fight the last sith war, or something like that, which involved lightsaber to lightsaber combat. We have also seen PT jedi sparring each other.

"The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

They had become new.

While the Jedi-The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war."

Except we know its not true since the Jedi stopped training in Makashi since they would not be fighting lightsaber wielding enemies anymore. I think its another case of the RotS novel being woefully detached from canon.

Plus Yodas opinion is vague in what he could mean and is faulty as heck.

This is all sorts of hilarious. So the Jedi were at their peak in an era without any enemies to fight besides blaster-toting enemies (of which many killed them in Genoshia). As of AotC, Obi-Wan Kenobi barely held his own with Jango Fett, despite being a Force user. Jedi are noted in PT era movies and novels as not being drastically more powerful than martial-era Jedi such as those from TOTJ, TOR, and KoTOR. If anything, a recurring them in the EU works is that the Jedi wre woefully unprepared for war in general and were not well suited to it. Mace Windu laments this in Shatterpoint. Then we have Kit Fisto, one of the most martial and "wild" combatants of his era, early in the war, soundly defeated by neophyte Ventress in seconds. Not minutes, seconds. Obi-Wan, shortly after, barely won their encounter, and in later scenarios she's shown chewing through multiple jedi masters, not mere padawans. Then there's Maul, who is head and shoulders above all but the tip-top level Jedi, Opress who is a virtual beast, Dooku who is pretty much superior to everyone but Yoda and Sidious in saber technique and force mastery. And Sidious himself chews through Jedi so stupid they can't even raise their arms after going to his office, ready to fight, and then seeing him arm himself and fly over to them (which btw, is the dumbest ****ing thing about RotS besides killing younglings and should never ever be considered anything but GL being a complete tard in decision making).

The bottom line is that the PT era Jedi are 'not' martially superior to any other era. While they do grow during the Clone Wars (which is years of continuous fighting), the truth is that prior to that, most were barely of note. Masters were more likely to be mere diplomats or scholars because that's what the Golden Age of the Jedi implies - peace, knowledge, equilibrium. It does not imply Jedi 'badassery'. And a GL blanket statement does not suffice; he's explicitly said he doesn't read EU and he could give two flying ****s what happens to it. Therefore, in EU context, his ignorance is not your excuseto blindly adhere to what reaffirms your bias.

Also, Exar Kun wins. QED.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not really. They don't do that well. What, was Jango timing the shots through skill? Was he pulling the trigger faster than Trebor could keep up with? 😖nort
[/B]

This is all sorts of hilarious. So the Jedi were at their peak in an era without any enemies to fight besides blaster-toting enemies (of which many killed them in Genoshia). As of AotC, Obi-Wan Kenobi barely held his own with Jango Fett, despite being a Force user.

Mind you, a Grand Master in the early TOR era, in the middle of a Sith war, was killed by a bounty hunter.

Kit losing to Ventress after what seemed to be a pretty intense duel, is much worse.

Originally posted by pencilcrayon
Trebor somehow deflected Jango's shot into his own shoulder.
01:52:28.957 time
http://i.imgur.com/OLRWPCT.jpg frame 161812
http://i.imgur.com/4pHTuip.jpg frame 161813
Up till this point, he deflected everything fired at him.

Wow.

Thats some bad jediing.

Have to say both sides are bringing up some good points here.

The AOTC novel states that Dooku's fencing style was an old one which had been forgotten by the Jedi, and proved it's clear superiority against Kenobi.

But then that ROTS quote from Yoda does sound like the Jedi were all combat ready and would have won is they were fighting the Sith in the more traditional way.

So carry on debating..

Either Kenobi or Dooku has mused in a source regarding their fight with each other in AotC how the Jedi practiced to be better at deflecting blaster bolts. I'll try and look for it.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
This is all sorts of hilarious.

It is, but we try to be polite and not laugh in your face. uhuh

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
So the Jedi were at their peak in an era without any enemies to fight besides blaster-toting enemies (of which many killed them in Genoshia).

Per Lucas, yes. And it's Geonosis, dammit!

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
As of AotC, Obi-Wan Kenobi barely held his own with Jango Fett, despite being a Force user.

You mean when Obi-Wan was under strict orders to bring Fett back to Coruscant for interrogation? And Jango Fett who was one of the galaxy's most renowned fighters, equipped with full body armor and armed to the teeth with dual blasters, trip wire, missiles, and a full-fledged starship?

Conversely, one could point to Jace Malcom flooring half a dozen Sith Lords on Alderaan and holding his own against Malgus, ostensibly one of Vitiate's finest. Or one could point to the mighty Revan who struggled immensely with members of Vitiate's Royal Guard.

Force users struggling against Forceless mooks is not the exclusive province of the prequel era.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Jedi are noted in PT era movies and novels as not being drastically more powerful than martial-era Jedi such as those from TOTJ, TOR, and KoTOR.

Where?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
If anything, a recurring them in the EU works is that the Jedi wre woefully unprepared for war in general and were not well suited to it. Mace Windu laments this in Shatterpoint.

The Jedi's aptitude for commanding armies notwithstanding, I don't see how this has any bearing on their combat technique and martial arts prowess.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Then we have Kit Fisto, one of the most martial and "wild" combatants of his era, early in the war, soundly defeated by neophyte Ventress in seconds. Not minutes, seconds. Obi-Wan, shortly after, barely won their encounter, and in later scenarios she's shown chewing through multiple jedi masters, not mere padawans.

Which speaks to Ventress's enormous natural talent, the expediency of the dark side's benefits, and Dooku's skill as an instructor.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Then there's Maul, who is head and shoulders above all but the tip-top level Jedi,

Maul is consistently referenced as one of the most highly trained and dangerous Sith Lords of all time.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Opress who is a virtual beast,

Again, such is Opress's inordinate level of natural potency and the expediency of the dark side. He's not more skilled than the Jedi he faces; he's simply more powerful.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Dooku who is pretty much superior to everyone but Yoda and Sidious in saber technique and force mastery.

With Dooku also being a legendary duelist and noted to be one of the greatest and most powerful Jedi in the order's 25,000 year history.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
And Sidious himself chews through Jedi so stupid they can't even raise their arms after going to his office, ready to fight, and then seeing him arm himself and fly over to them (which btw, is the dumbest ****ing thing about RotS besides killing younglings and should never ever be considered anything but GL being a complete tard in decision making).

The horrific choreography is conceded, but the intent behind their quick defeat has been made explicitly clear by Lucas: you need to be Mace or Yoda to even compete with Palpatine. Everyone else is fodder.

That has less to do with the skill of the rank-and-file Jedi than it does with how powerful and skilled Palpatine is.

Most Jedi of The Old Republic would melt before Vitiate like butter in a microwave; does that mean their collective ranks are similarly incompetent or unremarkable?

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
The bottom line is that the PT era Jedi are 'not' martially superior to any other era.

Lucas says otherwise.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
While they do grow during the Clone Wars (which is years of continuous fighting), the truth is that prior to that, most were barely of note.

They grow more experienced during the Clone Wars, yes, but there's no indication that their prowess underwent a radical improvement.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Masters were more likely to be mere diplomats or scholars because that's what the Golden Age of the Jedi implies - peace, knowledge, equilibrium. It does not imply Jedi 'badassery'.

False. Both times Lucas refers to the Jedi as "the golden age" and "the prime" of the Jedi, the declarations are issued in a militant context.

What's more, Qui-Gon in The Phantom Menace states that Maul was "well trained in the Jedi arts." Contextually, 'negotiation' and 'peace' are as inappropriate as finger-painting and dancing.

Like it or not, lightsaber combat is a province of the Jedi order and is considered one of their "arts."

Accordingly, it makes sense that in the Jedi's golden age, such a crucial discipline would be at its peak.

(Note: this is the same exact logic you ascribe to the golden age of the Sith, so it should be very easy for you to accept.)

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
And a GL blanket statement does not suffice; he's explicitly said he doesn't read EU and he could give two flying ****s what happens to it. Therefore, in EU context, his ignorance is not your excuseto blindly adhere to what reaffirms your bias.

George's blanket statement suffices because G-canon remains higher and more important than C-canon. He doesn't have to be well-informed of the EU's developments. He doesn't have to impartially evaluate the assembled evidence before reaching a conclusion. His is an authority of whims and the EU, by its own policy, must simply bow and acquiesce. They're not partners, they're not equals. George's creative wishes in this context is outright superior; what the EU has to say is merely subordinate.

It's nice to see you back by the way. Our battles will be the stuff of legend.

Revan didn't struggle with the Imperial guard, he cut him down in seconds. It was Meetra and Scourge who struggled with the rest of the guards while Revan confronted the Emperor.

Originally posted by Intrepid37
Either Kenobi or Dooku has mused in a source regarding their fight with each other in AotC how the Jedi practiced to be better at deflecting blaster bolts. I'll try and look for it.

Yep.

"Against that posture, Obi-Wan's sudden flurry of attacks seemed exaggerated and inefficient, for Dooku defeated each, one after another, with a slight parry or dodge, seeming barely to move. For while Obi-Wan and most of the Jedi were sword fighters, Count Dooku was a fencer, following an older fighting style, one more effective against weapons like lightsabers than against projectile weapons like blasters. The Jedi on the whole had abandoned that old fighting style, considering it almost irrelevant against the enemies of the present galaxy, but Dooku had always held stubbornly to it, considering it among the highest of fighting disciplines."

Again, pretty conclusive imo.

Jedi canonically grew "out of touch" of their ways during the so-called era of peace. Dooku himself noted this and eventually lost hope in Jedi ways.

GL's statements are always about his works; he doesn't represents EU (by his own admission) so his statements are not valid for EU. Simple.

Jedi Order have history of both successes and failures; PT era events fall in the list of its failures.