Originally posted by The_Tempest
It is, but we try to be polite and not laugh in your face. uhuh
Love you too, babe.
Per Lucas, yes. And it's Geonosis, dammit!
I was pretty tired when I posted that and did not proofread. Mahbad.
You mean when Obi-Wan was under strict orders to bring Fett back to Coruscant for interrogation? And Jango Fett who was one of the galaxy's most renowned fighters, equipped with full body armor and armed to the teeth with dual blasters, trip wire, missiles, and a full-fledged starship?
Good observation. Obi-Wan did indeed need to apprehend Jango and the bounty hunter is perhaps one of the most dangerous men in space. However, Obi-Wan at this point is fairly indicative of an above average approaching top tier Jedi. The Cestus Deception explicitly states he's a peer of Kit Fisto at this junction, and The Approaching Storm which immediately proceeds the movie shows Anakin, Barriss Offee, Obi-Wan and Luminara non-lethally holding off a small army of muggles.
The implication here is that Jedi of the PT era are not head and shoulders above anything else we've seen. They depict usually less Force powers than other eras (examples - Battle Meditation, Force severing) and their martial abilities, while getting better in the war, are again second-rate. They are diplomats. This is explicit in TCW novels left and right. Genosis is a ringing endorsement of how the new Order is complacent, having been untested against Sith or schisms for a thousand years.
Prior to this we had what? TOR, the Dark Brotherhood of the Sith wars, the Jedi Civil War, Mandalorian War, TOTJ, GAotS. Conflict makes warriors become high level warriors, not just idle practice. One novel (which exactly at the minute I forget. Perhaps Dark Rendezvous) notes that the average Jedi gets thousands of hours of saber training against peers.
But what is the quality of that training? In an era when the 'Diplomat's Form' is the norm, where the best defensive Jedi in the Order can barely keep ahead of Anakin Skywalker, could never hope to defeat Mace or Dooku or Yoda or Sidious, where the blaster bolt or vibroknife kills more Jedi than the lightsaber has for generations... That's the quality of training we're seeing here. It's why at Genosis, the Jedi are shockingly destroyed. And later on they grow to adapt and the survivors become hardier.
The point here is that this in conjunction with other observations, both by characters themselves who are reliable sources (Windu's observation) and EU feats/movie feats indicates the Jedi are not 'better' than any other era at this point and may actually be worse due to complacency and lack of conflict. This is the same reason why you would not assume a kendo practitioner today is a better swordsman than an actual war-hardened samurai, even if the former had a few thousand hours' training. He might be formidable, but he is lacking that intrinsic experience only true combat can give. And the kendo practitioner doesn't practice every day because his life depends on it; he practices because it is custom or hobby. The samurai masters his weapons because if he doesn't, he will die.
Conversely, one could point to Jace Malcom flooring half a dozen Sith Lords on Alderaan and holding his own against Malgus, ostensibly one of Vitiate's finest. Or one could point to the mighty Revan who struggled immensely with members of Vitiate's Royal Guard.Force users struggling against Forceless mooks is not the exclusive province of the prequel era.
As noted, I don't recall Revan struggling much if at all in this case, but on the point of Jace Malcom I'll reserve judgment (I have not seen this myself. A video would be awesome).
Where?
Pick up The Approaching Storm and start reading all the way until you hit Labyrinth of Evil. Then compare and contrast all of the Tales comics and Old Republic media.
The Jedi's aptitude for commanding armies notwithstanding, I don't see how this has any bearing on their combat technique and martial arts prowess.
Considering death by lightsaber combat was a low low priority after the Sith being thought extinct and blaster bolt deflection being key for safety in their duties as peacekeepers (note that term for later), a lot of Jedi lost their lives in the melee. This does not bode well for their abilities, either in the Force or martially. If you want to argue the opposite, please elaborate.
Which speaks to Ventress's enormous natural talent, the expediency of the dark side's benefits, and Dooku's skill as an instructor.
Except that by herself, Ventress could barely handle Anakin and Obi-Wan, and she had no chance in hell against Yoda or Mace Windu, or obviously Dooku. Ventress' threshold for asskicking starts just above Obi-Wan and Kit Fisto, which probably includes 98% of the Jedi we've ever seen or heard of in the PT era. That's a huge sample. And her training was mostly self taught. You expect me to believe that the "best Jedi evah" crapped their pants and died horribly to an exceptional neophyte? Or could you at least concede that the Order was severely lacking points in Kill Sith with Saburz?
Maul is consistently referenced as one of the most highly trained and dangerous Sith Lords of all time.
Yes, his dismantling of Qui-Gon and Anoon pretty much solidifies his aptitude within the confines of his era. His Force mastery is not approaching Master level, but his saber work is pretty top-notch. Maul, like Ventress, could probably obliterate 98% of the Jedi Order as well. While Sith are noticeably stronger than Jedi in most cases, it's a lot easier to count the few that can beat them rather than the multitudes of PT Jedi completely unprepared for their onslaught. Emphasis on 'unprepared'.
Again, such is Opress's inordinate level of natural potency and the expediency of the dark side. He's not more skilled than the Jedi he faces; he's simply more powerful.
I accept this.
With Dooku also being a legendary duelist and noted to be one of the greatest and most powerful Jedi in the order's 25,000 year history.
Keyword 'Jedi'. Not Sith. Funny, I hadn't noticed that distinction until now.
The horrific choreography is conceded, but the intent behind their quick defeat has been made explicitly clear by Lucas: you need to be Mace or Yoda to even compete with Palpatine. Everyone else is fodder.
Parrot GL, sir. PARROT!
That has less to do with the skill of the rank-and-file Jedi than it does with how powerful and skilled Palpatine is.
Actually, Kit Fisto (who is criminally underrepresented in the scene) is somewhat of a badass in novels and the series. He's Obi-Wan's peer if nothing else, and Obi-Wan's inner dialogue suggests perhaps more, at least just after AotC. If Kit Fisto is an accurate representation of an 'exceptional' Jedi, and his resume includes being utterly destroyed by Ventress in a few moves and destroyed by Palpatine in no time at all, how does this prove your argument?
Or should we use the top tier Jedi as a baseline? Like, Mace Windu versus every Jedi outside of the PT era?
Most Jedi of The Old Republic would melt before Vitiate like butter in a microwave; does that mean their collective ranks are similarly incompetent or unremarkable?
Actually, comparing Vitiate to RotS Sidious is a false analogy. Vitiate has displayed disgusting amounts of Force use, is far older, and is described as something of a Force anomaly. Besides his affinity for Force Nom, the fact remains that Vitiate is outside of RotS Sidious' league in the same way Obi-Wan is out of Sidious'. But I know this idea hurts you, so don't think on it too hard.
Lucas says otherwise.
What is it about 'context' and 'GL in his own words disavows knowledge of or care of EU' do you not understand?
They grow more experienced during the Clone Wars, yes, but there's no indication that their prowess underwent a radical improvement.
Really? Just Obi-Wan's bladework in RotS is improved over AotC, let alone his Force use. Not that it mattered against Dooku, but to say that a guy can fight against robots and dark siders for three years and not be 'better' is incredibly misleading.
...
Stupid character limits. Second half incoming.
False. Both times Lucas refers to the Jedi as "the golden age" and "the prime" of the Jedi, the declarations are issued in a militant context.
1. The Jedi are 'peacekeepers'. A Golden Age of cops would not indicate that they are suddenly Spec ops. It would indicate that they are as an institution the best cops they've ever been. Considering the Jedi had a thousand years of 'not fighting Sith' on their resume, they were in a golden era of peace by comparison.
2. GL doesn't read about/care about EU. This is not the movie-only forums. You must take EU into context when debating here universally to remain consistent. Otherwise, you can't use DE Sids' anymore or novel quotes about him as they are no longer G canon and thus irrelevant. Also, Disney is rewriting post-RotJ and Sidious turns into SSJ Sidious and blows up Alderaan with his kamehameha, but only because it shot first.
3. The Golden Age of Sith indicates their dominance, their mastery of the Dark Side which itself implies power (it's in their bloody creed) and their leader had an iron grip on the throne. His spirit coming back was enough to make Luke Skywalker crap his pants. Oh, and the amulets and baubles they left in their wake turned people like Ulic and Exar Kun from young rogue Jedi into the greatest threats to the Jedi, who outnumbered them in the thousands.
What's more, Qui-Gon in The Phantom Menace states that Maul was "well trained in the Jedi arts." Contextually, 'negotiation' and 'peace' are as inappropriate as finger-painting and dancing.Like it or not, lightsaber combat is a province of the Jedi order and is considered one of their "arts."
Yes, lightsaber combat is a province of the Jedi Order. They train in it excessively. I noted as much. But it's also noted that the specialty of fighting lightsaber duels against deadly opponents is exceedingly rare. The only practitioners of note include Dooku (a dedicated Makashi master and something of a prodigy in his own time) and iirc, Shaak Ti, who is of no consequence comparatively. Hell, the origination of the styles flat out states that no one practices Makashi, which is the refinement of saber dueling and was the preferred form when the Sith existed. Which, reference check, was from about the Second Great Schism to the Battle of Ruusan.
Unless you want to argue that half-assed mastery of blaster bolt deflection is the peak of Jedi saber art, than I don't see your point. Although if you are arguing that, RotJ Luke is clearly at least Knight level.
Accordingly, it makes sense that in the Jedi's golden age, such a crucial discipline would be at its peak.(Note: this is the same exact logic you ascribe to the golden age of the Sith, so it should be very easy for you to accept.)
No, it's not. For the same reason the Golden Age of Rome would not be the Golden Age of the Vatican. For the same reason the Golden Age of the Third German Reich would not be the same Golden Age of Belgium. Both Orders are not so similar in function and philosophy that you can apply a blanket statement like "Golden Age universally means best fighter", especially given that the Jedi are shown to be complacent, average at best, and woefully unable to fight Sith at worst.
George's blanket statement suffices because G-canon remains higher and more important than C-canon. He doesn't have to be well-informed of the EU's developments. He doesn't have to impartially evaluate the assembled evidence before reaching a conclusion. His is an authority of whims and the EU, by its own policy, must simply bow and acquiesce. They're not partners, they're not equals. George's creative wishes in this context is outright superior; what the EU has to say is merely subordinate.
So what you're saying to me essentially is that GL is allowed to create paradoxes in EU because of his own forced ignorance, even though his company greenlights content with his express approval?
So like, if he said Dark Empire was non-canon, Sidious would lose most of his EU battles, wouldn't he? Wait, he did pretty much say that. He said SW "is the story of Anakin Skywalker" and it begins and ends with his rise to Jedi-dom and his fall and redemption, followed by death. GL is concerned with, besides making enough money to get his turkey throat changed into something more human, elaborating on Anakin's hero cycle. That's it. He allows EU because it'd be suicidal not to, since it makes tons of dosh.
No, IF you intend to argue within the context of "EU is valid sources for argument", THEN you must agree that GL invalidates his own sweeping generalizations (those that impact any works outside of his immediate G-canon and do not infringe upon it, like say the alternate ending of RotS video game which infringes horribly and is an obvious exception) by virtue of his divorced attitude.
Hell, he even said "it's its own world". The EU world includes G-canon, and is based on it, but it is not itself GL's creation. End of debate.
It's nice to see you back by the way. Our battles will be the stuff of legend.
Absolutely!
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
As noted, I don't recall Revan struggling much if at all in this case, but on the point of Jace Malcom I'll reserve judgment (I have not seen this myself. A video would be awesome).
1.50
I wish I can put more into this discussion, it's getting interesting. I'll try as much as I can when I find time.
Other than that, you're doing a bit too much lowballing, SM. It seems that everyone who argues against the PT era are the ones who do most of the lowballing. For instance, why is Maul being better than most of his era a bad thing? Kun has shown to be more capable than Maul with rare powers such as sorcery and whatnot, but what makes you think Kun is a more skilled combatant than Maul? Maul has been noted as being among the most skilled and well trained fighters in the mythos, on top of having pretty beastly TK.
As for Kit's loss to Ventress, where do you get that she beat him in seconds, when the passage barely focused on their duel, but instead focused more on Kenobi fighting with her minions? Obi Wan's impatience and considering slaughtering the thugs with his saber in order to speed up the process to help Kit seemed to suggest that Kit's duel with Ventress wasn't as short as you are suggesting. The hyperbolic description of the fight seemed to suggest Kit and Ventress were fighting equally until Ventress, "at last," penetrated Kit's defense with a kick.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I wish I can put more into this discussion, it's getting interesting. I'll try as much as I can when I find time.Other than that, you're doing a bit too much lowballing, SM. It seems that everyone who argues against the PT era are the ones who do most of the lowballing. For instance, why is Maul being better than most of his era a bad thing?
It's not. But simply the fact that PT Jedi, on average, perform very badly against pretty much any Sith you put them against. Their track record is relatively poor. Comparatively, Sith are always implied as more powerful; they seek power and they strive to master and kill. That's a given. What's contested here is the level of their opponents. With the exception of the very top tier, Jedi of the PT era are mere fodder. Meanwhile, Jedi of previous eras are shown to be better in this regard. They fight off the Sith, over wars spanning years, and in some cases vanquish them utterly (see the Hyperspace Wars).
Kun has shown to be more capable than Maul with rare powers such as sorcery and whatnot, but what makes you think Kun is a more skilled combatant than Maul? Maul has been noted as being among the most skilled and well trained fighters in the mythos, on top of having pretty beastly TK.
Here's what I can conclusively put forth:
1. Kun is pretty much able to toy with and destroy his old ancient 600 year old saber master.
2. Kun is only able to be stalemated by Ulic, who is himself a saber prodigy. No one else comes close.
3. Kun demonstrates augmented Force powers by virtue of his amulet. In particular, because it augments his rage/power, he seems to be able to completely wipe the floor with people who were, five minutes ago, his superiors. Examples include punching Nadd into oblivion, who himself attacked Arca Jeth across space and time; wiping Aleema out like it was nothing, the latter being a product of generations of sith socery and herself nothing to sneeze at, and able to shrug off Force severe from the guy who invented and perfected it in the Sith genocide post Hyperspace War.
Even if I thought Kun was marginally inferior to Maul (which nothing implies as such), his raw Force power and ridiculous range of powers says that pure saber technique will not be decisive here, for the same reason why Dooku doesn't have to trade blows with Obi-Wan except for his amusement.
As for Kit's loss to Ventress, where do you get that she beat him in seconds, when the passage barely focused on their duel, but instead focused more on Kenobi fighting with her minions?
I've read the book twice, and that passage notes that Kit Fisto was downed within a few moves. The whole point was to establish Ventress as a legitimate threat to the Jedi, since earlier in the book Kit Fisto had destroyed a "Jedi Killer" bot with ease and non-lethally staged a fight with agility and mastery that even Obi-Wan felt he couldn't replicate. The fact that he is one of the Order's premiere badasses going into the Clone Wars and he was so easily destroyed says a lot.
Obi Wan's impatience and considering slaughtering the thugs with his saber in order to speed up the process to help Kit seemed to suggest that Kit's duel with Ventress wasn't as short as you are suggesting. The hyperbolic description of the fight seemed to suggest Kit and Ventress were fighting equally until Ventress, "at last," penetrated Kit's defense with a kick.
Actually, if you read the chapter again, you'll note that Ventress analyzed Kit's fighting style quickly by watching him fight through her thugs, and then quickly incapacitated him. Let's put this into proper perspective:
1. An epic struggle implies little disparity between two fighters. That is, it was a great struggle for both parties, and one party only barely came out on top.
2. Versus the alternative, a curb stomp with no real danger of defeat.
Kit Fisto's battle with Ventress was a curb stomp, and let's be honest, Ventress is a minnow in the ocean of Sith throughout time. I don't want people to rampantly assume that PT Jedi r teh win, given the evidence pointing otherwise. Then there's lack of common sense considering the Jedi don't practice Makashi to the extent they did in the previous Wars, they haven't fought Sith in a thousand years, and they were barely prepared for droids at Genosis.